Ed Schultz Blasts Phil Boyce and Poor Management at WABC

[smedge2006]

I am familiar with Dr. Florida's work. However, too many civic boosters take his ideas and run with them at the most superficial level. (Let's turn old buildings into funky loft condos and attract pseudo-Bohemians with cat-eyed glasses! Let's create history and ambience where none ever existed!) What the cities that worship Floridaism and the liberal talk stations need is not more people in berets, it's an effort to grow by growing the people you have. If too hip for the room is a requirement for progressivism, all you have is pretensions at elitism that engage nobody. Gramsci be damned.

 

[ABQTom]

I am familiar with Dr. Florida's work. However, too many civic boosters take his ideas and run with them at the most superficial level. (Let's turn old buildings into funky loft condos and attract pseudo-Bohemians with cat-eyed glasses! Let's create history and ambience where none ever existed!) What the cities that worship Floridaism and the liberal talk stations need is not more people in berets, it's an effort to grow by growing the people you have. If too hip for the room is a requirement for progressivism, all you have is pretensions at elitism that engage nobody. Gramsci be damned.

You are right that some mayors do indeed take Florida's ideas at a very superficial level. One of the greatest problems is when mayors focus too much on the downtown district with lofts, etc., and ignore the poor areas of town. The most important thing for a mayor can do (as an independent/social liberal, I am stating an opinion here) is to raise the minimum wage, like in San Francisco and Santa Fe, NM.

I'm not suggesting that Air America as a network target their shows only to the creative class.

Instead I am pointing out that cities with high creative class scores have better numbers with Air America and Jones programming, particularly for Thom Hartmann (in answer to what Jay Marvin was discussing).

And, I'm suggesting that Hartmann, Rhodes, and Maddow are too intellectual for many small and medium sized markets where ratings haven't been good, and Air America affiliates were cancelled...i.e. El Paso, TX.

In these latter markets, I would presume that hosts like Colmes, Big Ed, and Jay Diamond are doing much better. Are they?

 

[jimwalsh2001]

People are sick and tired of yelling and fighting. Hosts who do not see this and move with it are going to be in trouble.

A lot of hosts may have to learn this the hard way. I know I did...

 

[jaymarvin]

Yes. I heard the whole Ed Schultz rant. I like Ed but it was a waste of time.

 

[jaymarvin]

And let me also say if you can't play in those small markets then you are in trouble. Hartman not only doesn't play there but he doesn't play in SF, LA or NYC. I'll say it once again. I have seen the day part breakouts 25-54 and he doesn't do very well. In fact he doesn't even have a share in most markets. Now if you call having a 1 share 25-54 as being great than fine. I don't. I think it's bad. I have only a 1.5 here and it drives me crazy. Miller only had a 1 on KTLK last time I looked. How does that compare with say KFI or KABC?

 

[ajhenderson]

Stephanie might be in a similar league as Doug McIntyre on KABC, where the average listener is 98 years old (and getting older - they just changed their schedule). Frankly, he's not that good, and 790 doesn't reach parts of the metro, especially in the wee hours around 5am. So, Miller can try to play second banana to Bill Handel with a limited audience. There isn't (surprise surprise), last time I heard, anyone at 1150 running the board when she's on. How great can her audience be?

 

[FightingIrish]

The problem with many of these really big markets (L.A., N.Y., San Francisco Bay) is that the pie is cut up in many small pieces. Which means that there are many, many more choices on the dial, and increased competition. Gets a lot tougher when you're looking to compete with an obscure little 5,000 watt AM station.

While KKZN could easily get a 1.5 or so in a smaller market like Denver, it's quite a bit tougher to do in a heavily radioed, spread out larger market with a similar format. That's why stations like KKGN and KTLK have to work a bit harder. Even still, I'm sure there are more people listening to these stations at any given time than KKZN.

There's a lot of stations under a share in the big markets. That's just the way it is.

 

[ajhenderson]

You're right, Irish, but in LA, there are quite a number of stations with horrible signals doing really niche formats, or are in a different language (not Spanish). None of the Korean, Farsi, Cantonese, Vietnamese, or Mandarin stations show up in the book, nor do most of the Spanish religious stations. It's not just AM... KJLH, KDLD, KDLE, KFSH, KWIZ, KJLL, KHJL, and other FMs reach a small part of the market... how are they supposed to get huge numbers? If you could extrapolate their share in a particular zip code, it might look decent (considering the whole market had similar demographics, which isn't always the case and may be why they use that format on that signal).

So, the stations that do have relatively mainstream English- or Spanish-language formats and decent to good signals should be the ones that have the listeners. 1150 runs a halfway decent 50kW signal. You're not going to have listeners in Palm Springs like KFI, but it's not bad. I understand it will never be more than a half-***ed 2nd-tier talk alternative in line with a KRLA. I guess when you own eight stations and three of them have to be AM, you can't win 'em all. Maybe they can put Star, or whatever it is these days, on 1150 and move PT to 98.7.

Is a 1 share in Los Angeles a huge travesty for a throwaway AM? Not really. It doesn't make PT a failure here, but you'd think (especially if some effort was included) it could do better.

 

[jaymarvin]

KABC is a sad story. Talent is bad and so is the image of the station. What numbers it does have are old. Why no one will fix this is beyond me. I know they sit over there at KFI and just laugh at them. When I was growing up there was KLAC ( a great talk station) and KABC. As far as KTLK and Miller in order for her and the station to work right they should at least get a 2 share 25-54. Last time I looked at the day parts no one had anything over a share. I go back far enough I remember KWIZ when they played music! Also there was KEZY. How about the old KRLA at 110. They had very weak numbers too after KHJ but did some of the best radio in the late 60's. As far the pie cut up idea and the cume level we do no better or no worse than the rest of the AAR stations with the exception of NYC where AAR doesn't hardly show because of signal and bad programing. Face it AAR is bad programing with the exception of Lionel. And even he can't get numbers. My contract is up in a month and a half and I'm debating on staying with this format. I think it can work. It has to be done right.

 

[ajhenderson]

Don't even get me started on WWRL. :

 

[SeanMGilbow]

Stephanie might be in a similar league as Doug McIntyre on KABC, where the average listener is 98 years old (and getting older - they just changed their schedule). Frankly, he's not that good, and 790 doesn't reach parts of the metro, especially in the wee hours around 5am. So, Miller can try to play second banana to Bill Handel with a limited audience. There isn't (surprise surprise), last time I heard, anyone at 1150 running the board when she's on. How great can her audience be?

Let me remind you that after sponsoring Stephanie and Big Eddie here in Columbus, I got my first sale in ONE WEEK.

 

[ajhenderson]

Congratulations, Sean. I hope WVKO works for you. Keep in mind, I have spoken with several dentists and chiropractors that advertise on John and Ken and KFI and report getting 40-50 calls from one live read.

 

[ABQTom]

Jay, it's probably the KKZN signal. Your show 6am-10am ... before powering up to 50kW you miss a lot of the suburbs... Since you say that Thom isn't doing well on KKZN, how about adding Steph Miller 6am-9am, with Jay Marvin middays 9am-1pm, Ed Schultz 1pm-4pm, and more local talk with Erin Hart 4pm-7pm?

Other examples:
KKGN 960 in the Bay Area doesn't reach the south part of the Bay at over 5mV/m. That's a lot of listeners. They are just 5,000 watts ND1

KTLK 1150 L.A. is indeed 50kW day and 44kW night, but the signal is heavily directional towards the Pacific (6 towers), eliminating many parts of the market.

Now, look at KPOJ 620 in Portland - GREAT ratings - covers the entire market, with the recent power upgrade and new tower construction near I-205.
25,000 watts day, 10,000 watts night. Skywave goes to Sacramento at night.

And, look at KPTK 1090 Seattle - HUGE ratings for Hartmann and Schultz, giving KIRO a run for their money. Creative class, yes, that's part of it. However, it's the signal - 50,000 watts day and night.

But even KPTK will soon do better in the ratings! CBS Radio Engineers have just filed an application with the FCC to change their daytime pattern ... and more effectively cover the RAPIDLY growing eastern suburbs of Seattle with homes six feet apart (Kent, Auburn, Maple Valley, Bonney Lake, Puyallup, the "South Hill" etc.).

Right now, KIRO, KOMO, KVI, and KTTH cover these fine, but KPTK has difficulties due to its shoestring signal.

After the KPTK increase, I would expect a minimum 0.5 increase in the KPTK 12+ ratings...power lines and listening in buildings won't be an issue.

 

[ajhenderson]

Jay, it's probably the KKZN signal. Your show 6am-10am ... before powering up to 50kW you miss a lot of the suburbs... Since you say that Thom isn't doing well on KKZN, how about adding Steph Miller 6am-9am, with Jay Marvin middays 9am-1pm, Ed Schultz 1pm-4pm, and more local talk with Erin Hart 4pm-7pm?

Jay was on WLS. He should be doing mornings. With someone who knows what they're doing, a PT station should be able to keep cume duplication from 6-10am low. You know I don't believe that mornings are the be-all and end-all on 3rd tier talk stations, but on PT, a strong, local morning show is probably the answer if the signal and market size support it. Besides, Miller doesn't come on until 7 in Denver, and why delay Ed?

Where does Erin Hart come from? Mike Webb was a much better example of a KIRO liberal talent than that windbag.

Other examples:
KKGN 960 in the Bay Area doesn't reach the south part of the Bay at over 5mV/m. That's a lot of listeners. They are just 5,000 watts ND1

KKGN's numbers, as with KNEW's (both are licensed to Oakland) are similar in many regards in the San Jose book to the SF book. If memory serves correctly, KNEW's tower is further north near Berkeley.

KTLK 1150 L.A. is indeed 50kW day and 44kW night, but the signal is heavily directional towards the Pacific (6 towers), eliminating many parts of the market.

You are right that it's not the best signal, but keep in mind that fewer than a half dozen LA AMs cover the entire market (maybe only 2 if we're talking fantastic coverage) and that certain parts of So Cal, like the IE, are markets unto themselves.

Now, look at KPOJ 620 in Portland - GREAT ratings - covers the entire market, with the recent power upgrade and new tower construction near I-205.
25,000 watts day, 10,000 watts night. Skywave goes to Sacramento at night.

Skywave does not have any form of guaranteed coverage pattern.

And, look at KPTK 1090 Seattle - HUGE ratings for Hartmann and Schultz, giving KIRO a run for their money. Creative class, yes, that's part of it. However, it's the signal - 50,000 watts day and night.

The station does fairly well and, while I haven't seen anything firm, would presumably be an easier sell because of the more liberal market. I don't think you'd see the problem you did in Missoula, etc., for advertisers not wanting to be associated with PT. That being said, I am not so sure the station will increase in ratings. The signal is pretty good now, and I suspect KVI will make its way out of the gutter it has been in. KTTH has also made some shifts that I think will be positive. Not that these stations share a lot of cume with 1090, but I don't see the huge growth. We'll see. KIRO may be dumping local programs at night when no one listens to AM radio (it's a different kind of liberal listening, also, IMHO), so that doesn't cause much change anyway.

By the way, an app could take years. A lot of stations have a lot of apps. It may well happen, but don't count on it tomorrow.

 

[jaymarvin]

I thought about moving out of mornings to afternoons. Mornings are tough here because of signal and Morning Edition on NPR. But if I did that I would just leave the struggle to someone else. The next step here is they are going to add a live afternoon show. They have someone I'm just don't know who it is. They've been looking for sometime now. And of course there's the question if I will stay or not. My contract is up in two months. They want me to renew. There are other stations who want to talk to me. So we'll see. On KNEW I worked there (on KSAN) when both were country and KNEW has always had a signal problem.

 

[mobile-exradiodj]

Hopefully, Phil is still reading this thread. Jay is a free agent in two months. Offer him a job, and maybe Ed will say he's sorry.

If you can't have fun and chatboards, you can't have fun.

 

[ajhenderson]

Jay, I know Charles Goyette has, but have you filled in for Schultz, too? Just curious.

 

[ABQTom]

Re: Engineering 101 is the twin of Ratings 101

Please don't take my engineering comments out of the context of what I was trying to say - if you don't have a good signal, you're not going to get good ratings. Liberal stations KNEW, KKGN, KKZN, KLSD, and KTLK all have weaker signals than the big guys in town. I have studied these signals and their limitations. KTLK and others like KGIL in L.A. don't cover the entire survey area, and that is PART of the reason they don't have the numbers of KFI and KNX.

The signal and how much of the suvey area is covered affects the ratings, and given this, I don't care what the format is, liberal or not. I stated that because 760/Denver is Class D (can't operate anymore than 1,000 watts at night), that Jay Marvin could do mornings after sunrise 9am-1pm, 12 mos/year, and replace Thom Hartmann. This could double his numbers. Stephanie Miller could do 7am-9am.

The skywave is not taken into consideration when tabulating the population to receive a signal within a given signal contour of 5mV/m or greater. Class A and some class B stations have a skywave at night that expands coverage, but this isn't used in any formal way. The 1090/Seattle application is a good one, and the engineers at CBS radio seattle and their associates happen to have decades of experience. The opportunity has been there for years to expand daytime coverage.

See this:
http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/books/1444.html

National Radio Club
Antenna Pattern Book

By Bill Hale.
Totally redone, 238 pages with both Daytime and Nightime patterns for stations in the U.S.A., Canada and parts of Mexico! Three hole punched and updated through November 1, 2005. This book is a great companion to the popular NRC AM Radio Log. Mexican stations can be cross referenced with the IRCA Mexican Log. The Antenna Pattern Book, fits in a 1 inch three-ring binder (not supplied). 6th Edition. National Radio Club.

Order #1444 ..... $21.95

 

[jaymarvin]

Yes, I've sat in for Ed, and Alan as well as Springer when he was on. There was a plan to syndicate me(I won't go into it) but it fell apart. I really don't want a job from Phil. I'm not crazy about NYC.

 

[ajhenderson]

Thanks, Jay.

Tom: KKZN is a Class B station, not Class D.