Empire State Building signals weaker this weekend

[rapking]

Anyone else notice reception of New York stations is weaker this weekend?

Good ! Now I have no problem with my car .

 

[neo11]

Let's say this as simply as possible:

If there was any way that any of the NYC stations could increase their wattage, in market #1, don't you think they would have done so already? They haven't, and it's because of what everyone has pointed out already: the radio dial in the Northeast is crowded. That said, 6,000 or so watts from over 1,200 feet in elevation gets out quite far. Increasing wattage really wouldn't push the listenable signal of those stations out much further, but would actually just increase the amount of interference between the NYC stations and the fringe suburban stations. It would also fill in the existing coverage area with a stronger signal that would penetrate buildings more easily, but outside of the canyons of Manhattan, I don't think that's much of a problem anywhere.

 

[MoldaMania182]

In addition to what everyone already said here, I'm surprised no one mentioned the obvious...even if it were possible, what gain does a station have to go to 100k?? Has everyone forgotten the primary goal is to make $$$?? 100k is not going expand advertising or the actual market it's already serving which at the end of the day is what counts. Stations would actually lose money on their electric bill! What a smart move!! /sarcasm

 

[WPPCProductions]

they shouyld let the NYC stations give out 100000 watts of power... at least 923, 1019, and 1043

i wish the philly ones were full power as well...that'd be real nice.

Then they would have to rearrange the dial in at least the whole northeast. The area's too crowded with people, and too crowed with radio stations.

and THAT won't happen anytime soon at least.

Yeah I have to agree .Way to crowded , That would cause a big mess on the dial.also frying everyones brains out on the top floors with rf exposure.

 

[eyg2181]

In addition to what everyone already said here, I'm surprised no one mentioned the obvious...even if it were possible, what gain does a station have to go to 100k?? Has everyone forgotten the primary goal is to make $$$?? 100k is not going expand advertising or the actual market it's already serving which at the end of the day is what counts. Stations would actually lose money on their electric bill! What a smart move!! /sarcasm

yes, but more people would listen to the station

 

[nd2023]

100kw would only make it go 15 more miles. So you can hear an extra 2 songs and 10 commercials when you're speeding down the highway.

 

[davideduardo]

yes, but more people would listen to the station

The only listeners who create revenue are inside the New York metro so expanded coverage would not get any more ratings or revenue in the NY market.

 

[8638]

yes, but more people would listen to the station

The only listeners who create revenue are inside the New York metro so expanded coverage would not get any more ratings or revenue in the NY market.

David:

Can't help but notice that you've been more matter of fact and less attitudinal in your replies of late. Bravo!

Now, maybe you can answer a question for me, as you've been around forever, and know a lot. Was there a time that class B's operated at less than 50Kw@500ft, or its equivalent? I don't remember the NYC FM's having quite the coverage back in the seventies that they do now.

Thanks!
Don

 

[davideduardo]

Now, maybe you can answer a question for me, as you've been around forever, and know a lot. Was there a time that class B's operated at less than 50Kw@500ft, or its equivalent? I don't remember the NYC FM's having quite the coverage back in the seventies that they do now.

Once the classes were created, operating stations that did not comply (basically, stations that were superpowered) were allowed to preserve their status, called "grandfathered." However, in most cases if a station moved site, they had to build as a conforming A, B or C. We have a fair number of stations that are still grandfathered, but all that moved to the ESB had to conform.

The existing classes go back to the 50's, if I recall (I am 2000 miles from my old Broadcasting Yearbooks). A small adjustment more recently allowed A's to go to 6 kw at 100 meters, while they were 3 kw at 300 feet. In additon, C, C1, B, B1 and such subclasses were created as a rodeuct of docket 80-90 in the late 80's. That allowed many A's to become the lower classes of B or C, where they could not become full C's or B's.

B's and C's have always been the same, B's 50 @ 500 and C's 100 @ 2000 except for a minor adjustment to change to metric heights.

In the late 70's I did due diligence for a the purchase of a certain Lake Success FM on which I had a signed option for Pueblo Communications (Hills) and looked at its site on the WTC as well as comparing it to the ESB facilities. Except for a few minor things, like WCAA moving to the ESB, nothing much has changed other than the plumbing for the common antennas.

 

[fybush]

B's and C's have always been the same, B's 50 @ 500 and C's 100 @ 2000 except for a minor adjustment to change to metric heights.

The class maxima haven't changed, this is true. But in the 50s and 60s, a lot of stations were operating at far less than the maximum powers/heights for their classes. There were a fair number of "class B" signals running what would now be considered class A power, just to keep the license alive at minimal cost. At some point, the FCC put its foot down and forced those stations to use it or lose it, as it were.

In the late 70's I did due diligence for a the purchase of a certain Lake Success FM on which I had a signed option for Pueblo Communications (Hills) and looked at its site on the WTC as well as comparing it to the ESB facilities. Except for a few minor things, like WCAA moving to the ESB, nothing much has changed other than the plumbing for the common antennas.

I'd beg to differ slightly on that point, and not only because I'm still in the process of writing a history of New York City FM. There were actually a few pretty critical technical changes between the late 70s and now. In the 70s, most of the Empire FMs (92.3, 93.9, 96.3, 97.9, 98.7, 99.5, 104.3, 105.1, 107.5) were using the old Alford antenna mounted at the 1220' level, with its antenna elements above and below the windows of the 102nd floor observation deck. That antenna entered service in 1966, and while it was an improvement over most of those stations' former sites, it had pattern and polarization issues. The new ERI master antenna, mounted on the mast about 120' above the 102nd floor, was a huge improvement when it went into service in the late 80s. It's circularly polarized, which helps in-car reception considerably, and the new combiner (located in a room on the 85th floor, rather than in the mezzanine above 86, as the Alford combiner was) seems to work much better than the old one, too. The trade-off in power (4.6 kW ERP instead of 6 kW ERP) was more than worth the gain in height and the move to a more effective antenna.

It wasn't just 105.9 going to ESB - 106.7 went to Empire around the time WRVR became WKHK in 1980, 100.3 went on Empire when it went from WVNJ-FM to WHTZ in 1982, 101.9 came back to Empire from WTC in the early nineties, and of course WKCR, WPAT-FM, WNYC-FM and WKTU all came to Empire after 9/11.

 

[mimo]

yes, but more people would listen to the station

The only listeners who create revenue are inside the New York metro so expanded coverage would not get any more ratings or revenue in the NY market.

I'm in 100% agreement here, and there has to be a restriction at the current power not only for the overcrowded Northeast dial, but to keep the FM band as clean as possible. Imagine every station on the ESB increasing to 100, 000 watts and the absolute mess of noise that would create for people listening in the area? It would be every station walking over every other across the whole band on most radios. If people only hear a clutter of noise they're not going to listen and a power increase could actually hurt revenue and ratings. A square mile in New York City has more people in it than most cities elsewhere. It's more than enough to make or break a station or 6.

 

[abonita]

It wasn't just 105.9 going to ESB - 106.7 went to Empire around the time WRVR became WKHK in 1980, 100.3 went on Empire when it went from WVNJ-FM to WHTZ in 1982, 101.9 came back to Empire from WTC in the early nineties, and of course WKCR, WPAT-FM, WNYC-FM and WKTU all came to Empire after 9/11.

Very small quibble, my friend: 100.3 went on Empire on August 4, 1983, two days after Z-100 signed on. You'll find then-chief engineer Frank Foti's account at http://www.omniaaudio.com/buzz/clippings/Z100.pdf.

Anita

 

[8638]

Now, maybe you can answer a question for me, as you've been around forever, and know a lot. Was there a time that class B's operated at less than 50Kw@500ft, or its equivalent? I don't remember the NYC FM's having quite the coverage back in the seventies that they do now.

Once the classes were created, operating stations that did not comply (basically, stations that were superpowered) were allowed to preserve their status, called "grandfathered." However, in most cases if a station moved site, they had to build as a conforming A, B or C. We have a fair number of stations that are still grandfathered, but all that moved to the ESB had to conform.

The existing classes go back to the 50's, if I recall (I am 2000 miles from my old Broadcasting Yearbooks). A small adjustment more recently allowed A's to go to 6 kw at 100 meters, while they were 3 kw at 300 feet. In additon, C, C1, B, B1 and such subclasses were created as a rodeuct of docket 80-90 in the late 80's. That allowed many A's to become the lower classes of B or C, where they could not become full C's or B's.

B's and C's have always been the same, B's 50 @ 500 and C's 100 @ 2000 except for a minor adjustment to change to metric heights.

In the late 70's I did due diligence for a the purchase of a certain Lake Success FM on which I had a signed option for Pueblo Communications (Hills) and looked at its site on the WTC as well as comparing it to the ESB facilities. Except for a few minor things, like WCAA moving to the ESB, nothing much has changed other than the plumbing for the common antennas.

Thanks, Dave!

 

[davideduardo]

Thanks, Dave!

Be sure to read Scott's response, as he corrected a couple of erroneous or incomplete things I said and filled in a lot of detail on what I dismissed as "plumbing" on the ESB common antenna site.

 

[Radio-X]

Slightly off-topic question for all:

When the WTC site gets rebuilt with the proposed 1776' high antenna on the top of the tower, will many TV and FM's move back? Would there be any real advantages besides an extra 400' of height (with less power)? I would take it FM's would not like it too much; at that high of a height the 4.8 kW cranked out now would probably get reduced to around 2 kW...not to mention the emotional issues with even rebuilding the site

Radio-X

 

[eyg2181]

i just thought of something... if i worked on the top floors of the ESB...i would totally have my own radioc station! that'd be kick ass

 

[fybush]

Slightly off-topic question for all:

When the WTC site gets rebuilt with the proposed 1776' high antenna on the top of the tower, will many TV and FM's move back? Would there be any real advantages besides an extra 400' of height (with less power)? I would take it FM's would not like it too much; at that high of a height the 4.8 kW cranked out now would probably get reduced to around 2 kW...not to mention the emotional issues with even rebuilding the site

The FMs, for the most part, can't move down there, as it would create short-spacing issues for many of them. It's expected that many, if not all, of the TVs will go back there when the time comes. It's still far enough out that most of them seem to be focusing on maximizing facilities at Empire for now. It will start to get less crowded there in a year's time, when all the analog transmitters start coming out and some of the antenna space on the mast gets opened up. (No need for those big channel 2 or 4/5 antennas after 2009!)

 

[Ozman]

I went up to the 102nd floor Last Thursday. Was kick ass view. I brought my Sangean Dt 200VX up there with my Analog pocket TV. I noticed some TV stations came in Clearly and some were just a blur. Most radio stations were clear but some had RF and static pretty bad walking around a circle. I could Get 105.5 WDHA which was nice but other suburb stations didn't come in. i noticed There was a pirate on the audio of TV channel 8. Lastly, the Strongest signal knocking out a few stations was 95.5 WPLJ. I also Noticed 92.3 K-rock was stronger than others too.

Scott, do you know of any HDTV pocket tv's yet?
I bet if I could get one that with the analog shutdown and Digital TV stations cranking out 1,000,000 watts+ ( correct me if I am wrong) especially with a few building they can use now besides Empire and Times Square, that the signal from CT would Be pretty good. I never have tried to get a tv that is HDTV ready... I still think they cost too much but would like to get on soon

-OZ

Slightly off-topic question for all:

When the WTC site gets rebuilt with the proposed 1776' high antenna on the top of the tower, will many TV and FM's move back? Would there be any real advantages besides an extra 400' of height (with less power)? I would take it FM's would not like it too much; at that high of a height the 4.8 kW cranked out now would probably get reduced to around 2 kW...not to mention the emotional issues with even rebuilding the site

The FMs, for the most part, can't move down there, as it would create short-spacing issues for many of them. It's expected that many, if not all, of the TVs will go back there when the time comes. It's still far enough out that most of them seem to be focusing on maximizing facilities at Empire for now. It will start to get less crowded there in a year's time, when all the analog transmitters start coming out and some of the antenna space on the mast gets opened up. (No need for those big channel 2 or 4/5 antennas after 2009!)

 

[fybush]

Scott, do you know of any HDTV pocket tv's yet?
I bet if I could get one that with the analog shutdown and Digital TV stations cranking out 1,000,000 watts+ ( correct me if I am wrong) especially with a few building they can use now besides Empire and Times Square, that the signal from CT would Be pretty good. I never have tried to get a tv that is HDTV ready... I still think they cost too much but would like to get on soon

No pocket TVs, as such, just yet, but there are some very small LCDs out there, in the 5-7" range. And you can easily find TVs at Wal-Mart and other discounters with digital tuners in the $129-159 range.

 

[cyberdad]

In addition to what everyone already said here, I'm surprised no one mentioned the obvious...even if it were possible, what gain does a station have to go to 100k?? Has everyone forgotten the primary goal is to make $$$??

Bingo! The point of increased power isn't to gain an extra 10 or 15 miles of range somewhere in "exurbia". The idea is to have as strong and as competitive signal as possible in the local targeted market.