Engineer for third rate, brokered AM daytimer manages to burn down island

[davideduardo]

Re: Contractor apparently caused accidental fire.

From news reports on the Catalina fire:

"The fire appeared to have been ignited by contractors working on antennas at a radio station in the island's interior, Avalon Fire Chief Steven Hoefs said.

Bill Agresta, chief engineer at station KBRT-AM, said three contractors had been cutting steel antenna cable with a gas-powered circular saw Thursday when the fire started."

 

[dbdigital]

I realize that we live in an age when few people (and companies) willingly take responsibility for their actions but are we sure that a contractor working on KBRT's towers was responsible for the Catalina fire?

From what I've been reading, including Sunday's Long Beach Press-Telegram, a homeless man who fell asleep with a lit cigarette was the one who started the fire.

That was the cause, allegedly, of the Griffith Park fire.

Apparently the P-T reporter who wrote Sunday's article got it wrong. They printed a correction:

"Bill Agresta, chief engineer at station KBRT-AM, said three contractors had been cutting steel antenna cable with a gas-powered circular saw Thursday when the fire started."

db

 

[dbdigital]

Inside radio posted this:

http://www.insideradio.com/pdheadlines.asp?phid=498389&PT=Today's+Top+Stories

"Fighting the fire cost L.A. county officials millions, and soon the lawyers may start looking at just what happened at the transmitter site of Crawford-owned KBRT, Avalon (740)."

So it looks as if the County is seeking to find someone to stick this bill to other than taxpayers. I hope whoever they finally accuse is up-to-date on their insurance premiums.

db


[Link added as a courtesy by Radio Info]

 

[John McNary]

The company is responsible, whether its agent (contractor) did it or not.

The company not only hired a company that negligently and criminally created an unsafe condition, but the company's own engineer was there supervising other aspects of the operation.

Why should the taxpayers pay for these idiots' foreseeable and inevitable arson?

In Los Angeles County, you have to get a fire permit if you are doing any construction in a fire-prone area that could reasonably be foreseen to create sparks. using a gas-powered circular saw to cut steel cables in dry brush? Asinine.

And the fact that KBRT's chief engineer was there to oversee it? That makes the company even more liable for the violation of LA County ordinances, an oversight that has cost the taxpayers millions and could have killed people.

There is absolutely no immunity or shelter provided by the fact that the idiots with the saw were working for the idiots with the license.

 

[mostb1]

The company is responsible, whether its agent (contractor) did it or not.

The company not only hired a company that negligently and criminally created an unsafe condition, but the company's own engineer was there supervising other aspects of the operation.

Why should the taxpayers pay for these idiots' foreseeable and inevitable arson?

In Los Angeles County, you have to get a fire permit if you are doing any construction in a fire-prone area that could reasonably be foreseen to create sparks. using a gas-powered circular saw to cut steel cables in dry brush? Asinine.

And the fact that KBRT's chief engineer was there to oversee it? That makes the company even more liable for the violation of LA County ordinances, an oversight that has cost the taxpayers millions and could have killed people.

There is absolutely no immunity or shelter provided by the fact that the idiots with the saw were working for the idiots with the license.

Not necessarily so. I can not control what an independent contractor does even if I hire them. I hire them to complete a task. Legally I can't tell them how to perform. I own a business and when we hire outside contractors their insurance would pick up any damages. Not to say you can't be sued for anything. My business was sued for a bad dog bite but the dog only came on my property because the person walking the dog on a public sidewalk let it get loose and it bit someone on my property. I had go to get my insurance company to have a lawyer hired by my insurance company get my business dismissed from the case (which it was).

You're getting way ahead on that ordinance idea. This is a radio tower and it can be expected it needs maintenance. No permit is needed for that. THere was no "red flag warning" on Catalina that day.

Update from InsideRadio.com. Employees of a tower company who were hired by Crawford are the one who started the fire. They'll get sued for sure. Crawford probably will be as well. But I can see them getting dismissed from the case. http://insideradio.com/topheadline.asp?ID=498389&PT=Today's (short term link)

 

[John McNary]

Really? And under just which theory of common law, or statute, is that true?

Ever hear of the legal theory of contributory negligence in a civil action? Or the crime of conspiracy, which is defined as one party telling another to an illegal act?

I'm sorry, but your unsupported conclusion is an absolute fantasy.

If you hire someone to do something that is illegal, and you supervise the illegal act, you are more guilty than that some other party..

The corporate entity that hires and approves of a subordinate, or agent, doing something illegal is also responsible for the crime.

KBRT hiring a crew that , under its direct supervision, did something negligent and illegal makes both the contractor and contracting party guilty.

You know, the absolute statements of law that are uttered by here without any basis of fact are astounding.

 

[John McNary]

And by the way, all of Los Angeles County was under an official red flag warning that day. It started the weekend before, and went all weekand and expired Thursday at 7 p.m.

Our local paper even interviewed a National Weather Service guy about it Tuesday.

And unincorporated Los Angeles County falls under the fire department regulations, which require a permit for any hazardous work and the filing of a fire suppression plan, approved by ther LA County FD, for proposed work in brushfire zones. Catalina Island is defined as a brushfire zone, as is my neighborhood - I am prohibited by law from any activities using heavy equipment in my backyard fire break on red flag days.

I am also prohibited from hiring anyone to do the same.

Your facts are as wrong as your understanding of the law.

 

[mostb1]

Really? And under just which theory of common law, or statute, is that true?

Ever hear of the legal theory of contributory negligence in a civil action? Or the crime of conspiracy, which is defined as one party telling another to an illegal act?

I'm sorry, but your unsupported conclusion is an absolute fantasy.

If you hire someone to do something that is illegal, and you supervise the illegal act, you are more guilty than that some other party..

The corporate entity that hires and approves of a subordinate, or agent, doing something illegal is also responsible for the crime.

KBRT hiring a crew that , under its direct supervision, did something negligent and illegal makes both the contractor and contracting party guilty.

You know, the absolute statements of law that are uttered by here without any basis of fact are astounding.

Wnat is astounding is the conspiracy theory you are trying to present. This was just an accident. They have the right to perform maintenance on their tower WITHOUT any special permits in the County of Los Angeles. You do not know the law.

There is no "direct" supervision when you hire an independent contractor as they did. Again, obviously you don't know the law.

After seeing the transmitter site on KTLA Prime News at 10 PM tonight, it was quite clear the area around the tower was clear of brush. They appear to be in compliance with any brush clearing laws.

There has been nothing found to be illegal at this point. No one has been cited and no one has been arrested. Keep your conspiracy ideas to yourself. They're silly.

 

[John McNary]

KBRT should ask Jeezus, Allah and Ra for the $2.5 million their stupidity cost

Excuse me, I do know the law. In two years I will be practicing it. As for now, I am a paralegal and work for a law office on real estate and land use issues.

Accidents are unforeseeable. This one could have reasonably and objectively been predicted by anyone .. which is the legal standard for a crime.

One must have a permit in LA County brushfire zones to do any work that involves any machinery that can cause sparks. You even need a permit to run a tractor in a fire zone. That's the law. Period.

Such permits are not granted when red flag conditions exist. Like last week.

I'm still waiting for you to provide ANY legal theory that somehow exempts a person hiring a contractor form his obligation to follow the law.

A contractor acting on behalf of an employer does not provide the employer with any form of immunity from laws whatsoever. That theory is preposterous and would getg you laughed out of any courtroom.

And if there is any question that the contractor was acting at the behest of KBRT, the station's chief engineer was standing right there with his thumb up his AM choke control.

Using your "logic," Tony Soprano would never be guilty of anything when he orders a whacking by a "contractor."

The law defines conspiracy simply as two persons agreeing to perform an illegal act. That's no conspiracy theory, just the law. And I'm not alleging conspiracy, I don;t think the employees should be charged. Responsibility rests squarely with Crawford Broadcasting through the reckless and negligent actions of its engineer.

And if the area was clear of brush, pray tell, how did it catch fire?

Jeezus, I hope you know something about anything that has to do with radio, because you sure as the sun rises know nothing about what you are talking about here.

By the way, from the National Weather Service Thursday afternoon, 3 hours after the fire started:

CAZ087-151045-
CATALINA ISLAND-
INCLUDING...AVALON
230 PM PDT THU MAY 10 2007

.RED FLAG WARNING CONTINUES FOR HIGH TEMPERATURES AND LOW HUMIDITIES THROUGH 7 PM TONIGHT.

.TONIGHT...CLEAR IN THE EVENING. GUSTY WINDS.
LOWS IN THE MID 60S. ...

Your error about the red flag warning is also noted and corrected.

 

[mostb1]

Re: KBRT should ask Jeezus, Allah and Ra for the $2.5 million their stupidity cost

Excuse me, I do know the law. In two years I will be practicing it. As for now, I am a paralegal and work for a law office on real estate and land use issues.

Accidents are unforeseeable. This one could have reasonably and objectively been predicted by anyone .. which is the legal standard for a crime.

One must have a permit in LA County brushfire zones to do any work that involves any machinery that can cause sparks. You even need a permit to run a tractor in a fire zone. That's the law. Period.

Such permits are not granted when red flag conditions exist. Like last week.

I'm still waiting for you to provide ANY legal theory that somehow exempts a person hiring a contractor form his obligation to follow the law.

A contractor acting on behalf of an employer does not provide the employer with any form of immunity from laws whatsoever. That theory is preposterous and would getg you laughed out of any courtroom.

And if there is any question that the contractor was acting at the behest of KBRT, the station's chief engineer was standing right there with his thumb up his AM choke control.

Using your "logic," Tony Soprano would never be guilty of anything when he orders a whacking by a "contractor."

The law defines conspiracy simply as two persons agreeing to perform an illegal act. That's no conspiracy theory, just the law. And I'm not alleging conspiracy, I don;t think the employees should be charged. Responsibility rests squarely with Crawford Broadcasting through the reckless and negligent actions of its engineer.

And if the area was clear of brush, pray tell, how did it catch fire?

Jeezus, I hope you know something about anything that has to do with radio, because you sure as the sun rises know nothing about what you are talking about here.

By the way, from the National Weather Service Thursday afternoon, 3 hours after the fire started:

CAZ087-151045-
CATALINA ISLAND-
INCLUDING...AVALON
230 PM PDT THU MAY 10 2007

.RED FLAG WARNING CONTINUES FOR HIGH TEMPERATURES AND LOW HUMIDITIES THROUGH 7 PM TONIGHT.

.TONIGHT...CLEAR IN THE EVENING. GUSTY WINDS.
LOWS IN THE MID 60S. ...

Your error about the red flag warning is also noted and corrected.

Please let us know the law firm you will be working for. I want to be sure not to hire them. i don't want to lose a case.

When they file a criminal complaint, which won't happen, come back with your absurd conspiracy theory. Yes you have been making a conspiracy theory and only now that you've been called on it are you backing off.

There is NOTHING illegal about using a motorized saw. They were using it appropriately. This was an accident, plain and simple. You're making yourself look like a fool by trying to relate this to a ficticous mob character who has illegal business dealings.

The tower company is the one responsible not Crawford. It's their people who were doing the job NOT the engineer for Crawford.

TELL US WHO HAS BEEN ARRESTED? Nobody. Nobody will be.

 

[John McNary]

You're right, calling KBRT third rate insults KRLA and KKLA.

According to the Los Angeles County Fire Department spokesman, whom I spoke to Monday, the case will be referred to the district attorney's office for a determination on charges. That will happen when the arson investigation is complete, in several weeks.

Do you have any other unsubstantiated rumors or wild assertations of law to pass on as fact?

Do you still maintain there was no red flag alert in effect in Los Angeles County that day?

Do you still argue that the brush clearance was adequate, and that magic fairy dust somehow combusted and ignited the brush that wasn't there?

Do you still cling to some mysterious legal theory that hiring someone to do something negligent and reckless somehow absolves you of responsibility?

Did the lord's work get undone by the devil? Is that your motive for your unquestioning, pious defense of this pathetic half-wit of a federal licensee?

By the way, the fire is up to 4,800 acres and expected to be fully contained today.

The cost to L.A. county taxpayers exceeds $3 million, and that does not include the cost of the Navy hovercraft, which under a joint powers agreement could be billed by the DOD to LA county.

Lost tourist revenues on the island exceed another $3 million.

200 residents at Two Harbors are still without power, phones, internet or a road to the schools, hospital, supermarket and other services in Avalon.

The KBRT legal defense fund address is available at their internet site, which is still misspellling "Catilina" and not apologizing for the disruption.

The one thing you got right is that no one has been arrested.

Yet.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Unresolved questions are just that... unresolved.

According to the Los Angeles County Fire Department spokesman, whom I spoke to Monday, the case will be referred to the district attorney's office for a determination on charges. That will happen when the arson investigation is complete, in several weeks.

I don't often agree with Glenn, but he is very right on this call.

First, I looked up "arson" and there is something about "intent to cause" in there. This was an accident. Whether caused by stupidity or serendipity, it was not an intentional act.

I'm sure the authorities are looking at the cause, and determining whether there is any kind of further action required. But none of us are party to that, so we are just going to have to wait for the investigation and any possible further actions.

The GCC Communicator, in edition 792, has a complete detail of the event. It even clarifies that the engineer was injured (broken ribs) by one of the contractor's employees. That issue should be on http://www.bext.com/_CGC/contents.htm realtively soon. I do not post it as it is copyrighted.

Let's simply watch this play out. Blaming the fire on the station's ratings or format is patently absurd and grossly irrelevant. Whether the station has listeners or not is also not part of this issue, which has to do with a contractor who was warned by the engineer not to use a saw, and then, apparently did so while the engineer was not watching.

 

[mostb1]

Re: You're right, calling KBRT third rate insults KRLA and KKLA.

According to the Los Angeles County Fire Department spokesman, whom I spoke to Monday, the case will be referred to the district attorney's office for a determination on charges. That will happen when the arson investigation is complete, in several weeks.

Do you have any other unsubstantiated rumors or wild assertations of law to pass on as fact?

Do you still maintain there was no red flag alert in effect in Los Angeles County that day?

Do you still argue that the brush clearance was adequate, and that magic fairy dust somehow combusted and ignited the brush that wasn't there?

Do you still cling to some mysterious legal theory that hiring someone to do something negligent and reckless somehow absolves you of responsibility?

Did the lord's work get undone by the devil? Is that your motive for your unquestioning, pious defense of this pathetic half-wit of a federal licensee?

By the way, the fire is up to 4,800 acres and expected to be fully contained today.

The cost to L.A. county taxpayers exceeds $3 million, and that does not include the cost of the Navy hovercraft, which under a joint powers agreement could be billed by the DOD to LA county.

Lost tourist revenues on the island exceed another $3 million.

200 residents at Two Harbors are still without power, phones, internet or a road to the schools, hospital, supermarket and other services in Avalon.

The KBRT legal defense fund address is available at their internet site, which is still misspellling "Catilina" and not apologizing for the disruption.

The one thing you got right is that no one has been arrested.

Yet.

The cause of the fire was determined to be ACCIDENTAL (see link below to the PRINTED truth by trustworty media NOT you). So you are wrong. NBC 4 reported on their 11 AM news today NO CHARGES WILL BE FILED. Stop making stuff up. You're just making yourself look more pathetic with each post. Certainly making things (laws and regulations that don't exist or apply) up as you have would justify you passing the bar exam, though. http://www.presstelegram.com/ci_5900750

 

[Greg Strickland]

Regarding the KBRT signal... the towers are short, less than one quarter wavelength. Although the salt water path to the audience is excellent, the antenna array is about a mile from the sea. So for some distance the signal has to propagate through soil. Had KBRT gotten half wave towers adjacent to the sea and 50 KW, I think the signal would have been much better.

Great frequency, except for the night time co channel signal from KCBS. LA radio geek entertainment is listening to KBRT just before sundown and hearing them get beat up by KCBS. It's brutal, like a boxing match that should have been stopped.

Dan- I'm surprised you don't suggest WBZ has a near ideal site. I've run studies, and maintaining WBZ's shoreline coverage and inland coverage to the west requires something like the same array relocated to Provincetown with 500 KW TPO.

And speaking of studies, KFI with a half wave two tower DA on Catalina falls short to the east compared to their historic licensed site.

Salt water is nice, but proximity is nicer.

 

[Greg Strickland]

To clarify my WBZ comment... moving the antenna east would naturally improve the shoreline coverage north and south, but keeping the present inland coverage west of Boston would require a huge amount of power.

btw, San Francisco has some stations that are well situated to take advantage of salt water paths.

 

[John McNary]

KBRT got off very lucky. They should be prosecuted.

Filing of criminal charges is a discretionary thing. I'm sure the fire department found no intent to be criminally stupid, as Eduardo correctly points out.

I hope KBRT is sued and has to pay dearly.

This third-rate company exercised criminal stupidity that cost me money, as a taxpayer.

And for the record, you do need a special permit for heavy industrial work in a brushfire zone, the brush was not cleared around the work site (obviously), and there was a red flag warning in effect that day.

 

[halloaaryn]

I too think KBRT should be held responsible.

 

[Kent]

Really? And under just which theory of common law, or statute, is that true?

Here you go, John: http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm. This is the California Division of Labor Standards Enforcement definition of an independent contractor. If you notice, it specifically states, "[...] the most significant factor to be considered is whether the person to whom service is rendered (the employer or principal) has control or the right to control the worker both as to the work done and the manner and means in which it is performed." In other words, a business has no right to control the manner and means in which a job is performed by an independent contractor. So, Crawford's engineer not only didn't control or supervise the actions of the contractors, he didn't even have a legal right to do so!

You know, the absolute statements of law that are uttered by here without any basis of fact are astounding.

Well, there you go. You now have the facts! The contractor was not under the direct supervision of Crawford, period!

 

[John McNary]

Very good. The plain meaning of that document you quote is that if the worker is being supervised by a company official, then he cannot be called an independent contractor.

Thanks for the research.

If the employer "has control or the right to control the worker both as to the work done and the manner and means in which it is performed" he is not an independent contractor.

The tower crew was there working under the direct supervision of the KBRT boss. KBRT is therefore responsible for any illegal acts commited by that crew, and whether they were an independent contractor or nor (whioch they were not) is laughable. Keep praying, KBRT fans.

And David, the fact that this radio station is by any definition a third rate piece of crap, the way that it is operated most certainly does have to bear on the character of the licensee, and his fitness to hold the license.

 

[Kent]

Very good. The plain meaning of that document you quote is that if the worker is being supervised by a company official, then he cannot be called an independent contractor.

That is absolutely correct. If the worker is controlled by the company or the company has the right to control his actions, he must be classified as an employee.

Thanks for the research.

You're welcome.

The tower crew was there working under the direct supervision of the KBRT boss. KBRT is therefore responsible for any illegal acts commited by that crew, and whether they were an independent contractor or nor (whioch they were not) is laughable. Keep praying, KBRT fans.

This is where you're incorrect. The tower crew was NOT working under the direct supervision of the KBRT boss. Simply the fact that the KBRT engineer was at the site does not constitute direct supervision. It's the same as me hiring a construction contractor to build my house. While I would tell them the site, the floorplan and the style of house, I would not have any right to tell them how to pour the foundation, how to build the frame, how to lay the bricks and do the tuckpointing, etc. I wouldn't even have the right to tell them which employees to use on any given day. I couldn't directly supervise them even at the jobsite because I don't know enough about construction to supervise them. What you're assuming is that the engineer knows more about tower construction than a contractor who specializes in it (not to mention several other control factors that probably don't exist). This is highly unlikely to be the case. Transmitter and broadcast operation are not the same thing as tower construction. However, if you believe Crawford had control of the tower crew, you might want to contact the Division of Labor Standards Enforcement and have them look into the issue.