Engineering Salary Levels

[seattle_seeker]

Hi guys,

I'm looking at a change of employment, and I'm not sure how much money to ask for. I may be relocating to a market in the 10's from a market in the 60's. I was reading the annual salary survey at... http://radiomagonline.com/features/radio_financial_growth/index.html ...which was helpful, but didn't give much detail.

According to the NY Times cost-of-living calculator, I will have about a 15% increase in basic costs, but housing could be as much as 100% more expensive. I would be going from a small company to a big one, and with more responsibility. So I think I can safely expect a good salary increase. I am currently underpaid - a fact even admitted by my boss, who claims he is too, and that no one can do anything about it.

So... Time to do something about it...

For those of you comfortable sharing, I am curious how you compare to the numbers in the article on the Radio Mag web site. I would be happy with just a lower/close/higher scale for those of you who don't want to share actual numbers. All things considered, I hope to roughly double my income... With my years/skills/experience, I don't think this is an outlandish posibility.

There is the old argument of "I don't want to undercut myself" versus "I don't want to scare them away", so I am not sure what to do. The article speaks a lot of SBE certs, which clouds my issue. I'm an SBE member, I just finished the RF Safety Course, and I will be taking the CRO exam this month. I know those are just basics, but I have to start somewhere, no?

The article says that an SBE certified engineer in a top 50 market makes an average of $72,999.

So...for a general-purpose radio engineer that takes care of transmitters, studios, and remotes, in a medium-sized cluster, in a market in the 10's, with about 10 years experience, an SBE safety course, and a CRO coming down the line, possibly more, do you think $80,000 is crazy...? Less? More? Keep dreaming...?

Thanks.

If any of you want to contact me via Private Message, that's fine. I won't tell your boss...

 

[LA_Guy]

I'd say that's in the ballpark...

I'd say $80K is in the ballpark. Problem is, that same job ten years ago would have paid about 20K more for less stations (work)-and that's in 1997 dollars (example: what did gas cost in 1997?).

Radio salaries are dropping, not increasing. They have not kept up with those in other disciplines for some years now. The culprit is The Communications Act of 1996, which resulted in more work for the same (or less) dollars. It also resulted in the copious use of computer automations in broadcast facilities which gave broadcast engineers an additional responsibility-computers-usually with no increase in $$. These days, most computer techs make as much or more then the average broadcast engineer, yet they don't risk life and limb fixing broadcast transmitters in the middle of the night.

Compounding things is that-unlike in other industries-age discrimination is rampant in Broadcast Engineering! You'd think the reverse would be true; that more experienced engineers (especially those with AM directional experience, where the good engineers are literally dying off), would command a premium, but it simply isn't.

Too many clueless, ex Sales Whores, General Managers out there, I guess.

The good news is that if you're young enough and stick it out, you'll probably do okay in radio engineering, because it's already getting difficult to find good engineering talent-and it's likely to get worse as time goes by.

 

[radionekkid]

Re: I'd say that's in the ballpark...

I'd say $80K is in the ballpark. Problem is, that same job ten years ago would have paid about 20K more for less stations (work)-and that's in 1997 dollars (example: what did gas cost in 1997?).

Radio salaries are dropping, not increasing. They have not kept up with those in other disciplines for some years now. The culprit is The Communications Act of 1996, which resulted in more work for the same (or less) dollars. It also resulted in the copious use of computer automations in broadcast facilities which gave broadcast engineers an additional responsibility-computers-usually with no increase in $$. These days, most computer techs make as much or more then the average broadcast engineer, yet they don't risk life and limb fixing broadcast transmitters in the middle of the night.

In summary, this about sums it up. Sad but true with so little upside.

Compounding things is that-unlike in other industries-age discrimination is rampant in Broadcast Engineering! You'd think the reverse would be true; that more experienced engineers (especially those with AM directional experience, where the good engineers are literally dying off), would command a premium, but it simply isn't.

Too many clueless, ex Sales Whores, General Managers out there, I guess.

The good news is that if you're young enough and stick it out, you'll probably do okay in radio engineering, because it's already getting difficult to find good engineering talent-and it's likely to get worse as time goes by.

 

[NoTimeForSleep]

LA_GUY hit it right on. I guess that pay rate is right, but a lot of companies refuse to pay something like that.

I'm on the lower end of the age spectrum and have been told time and time again, stick it out and you'll do OK one day job wise. The problem is that IT jobs pay a lot better with less stress, less life hazards, and have regular business hours (something I have yet to see in 10 years). To me radio owners do not seem to want to replace the engineers that are moving on by keeping salaries competitive. Not much incentive for newer people who want to try to support a family or something.

 

[spinjector]

Re: I'd say that's in the ballpark...

I'd say $80K is in the ballpark.

Well that's good... It felt right, but I just wasn't sure. It's hard to tell jumping cities like this.

Radio salaries are dropping, not increasing. They have not kept up with those in other disciplines for some years now.

I don't know about that... Although not rich, I have been sorta comfortable in my current position. I've been working less hours lately, but been getting yearly statutory raises. So it's kind of working out. As for other technical professions, it's hard to compare them to radio, because a lot of us do this from the seat of our pants, with no school or certifications. I've been doing it 10 years now, and I've only just started the SBE stuff - solely for the dollar value. Although, I must admit, I did learn some stuff in the RF safety course...

The culprit is The Communications Act of 1996, which resulted in more work for the same or less dollars. It also resulted in the copious use of computer automations in broadcast facilities which gave broadcast engineers an additional responsibility, usually with no increase in $$.

I lost my job two years in a row because of that damn communications act. The big corporations came through town buying and selling stations like bingo chips, with no understanding or regard for the technical needs of radio, or people's lives that they were ruining. All they saw was income and marketing potential. This is also what I see as the cause of the desperate state of music in this country.

Radio is killing itself by playing so much crap all the time. A steady diet of sugar is not healthy and usually results in ill health and death. The RIAA tries to blame it on file sharing, but the fact is, people are just sick of the crap and they are off listening to CD's now. People are more aware of how much of their music dollar does NOT get to the artist, and pads the pockets of fat rich music executives instead. Those (former?) listeners that are comeputer savvy have used file sharing to discover the other 99,999,999,960 songs out there - that's 100 Billion, minus those 40 specific songs we keep hearing over and over, which in the long run don't really count, since they are all bad covers of already-existing songs.

I agree on those automation computers. Half our work here is babystitting cranky scripts and relay closures that the networks forget to send, or send at the wrong times. If we trashed our automation system, hired PT boardops, and put the engineers back in engineering, the money would probably work out the same, with much less screwing around.

These days, most computer techs make as much or more then the average broadcast engineer, yet they don't risk life and limb fixing broadcast transmitters in the middle of the night.

I don't know about that - I've had copmputer jobs and they paid a lot less than what I make now. But yes, I see no compensation for the safety issues or the fact that I have no damn life working 24/7, two weeks out of three. And then when I get a weekend off, I have to do remotes. If I made a buttload more money, it wouldn't be so bad. I'm stuck right now - can't go to school for lack of time and money, but if I don't do the OT, I go broke. This is why I am moving on. I count myself very lucky that I am good enough to move up and make more money doing it. I hope I get to a place that values me, and compensates me accordingly...then I pinched myself and woke up. Geeze, I sounded like a beauty paegent contestant there for a second.

Compounding things is that-unlike in other industries-age discrimination is rampant in Broadcast Engineering! You'd think the reverse would be true; that more experienced engineers (especially those with AM directional experience, where the good engineers are literally dying off), would command a premium, but it simply isn't.

I dunno, I think that happens all over. With seniority comes the expectation of some kind of reward for loyalty and a job well done. This scares the bean counters. But there seems to be too much of the attitude that "radio is fun so lets pay them less". That is true to some extent. One summer we had a jetski give-away contest, and I was given the privelege of riding it whenever I wanted until it was given away. I must admit the "radio is fun" part had me really, really distracted that summer.

I think radio will shoot its own foot once the good engineers are gone. The transmitters will start to blow up and the towers will start to come crashing down. The place where I work is headed for a HUGE train wreck - we've already had one big one that I shant relay the details of, only that it was TV newsworthy. Our studio equipment is aging and starting to break down reguarly, and the media server system we use needs constant babysitting. When I leave, it will leave a big hole in our department. I'm not happy about this, and I hate to do it to the other guys I work with, but hey I have to look out for myself. Sooner or later, something big is going to break, and there will be no one around that knows how to fix it. Part of me wants to say "I told you so", but there is no joy in it. I have a genuine feeling of pity for everyone else in the company that will have to deal with it.

Too many clueless, ex Sales Whores, General Managers out there, I guess.

Heh... No comment. Not so bad where I work, but I've heard of some real hum-dingers elsewhere in my city.

The good news is that if you're young enough and stick it out, you'll probably do okay in radio engineering, because it's already getting difficult to find good engineering talent-and it's likely to get worse as time goes by.

Well hopefully that will work out for those of us that remain. I am not a thoughtless winner, though... I think about all the people left behind and buried by the penny pinching.

 

[spinjector]

LA_GUY hit it right on. I guess that pay rate is right, but a lot of companies refuse to pay something like that.

I'm on the lower end of the age spectrum and have been told time and time again, stick it out and you'll do OK one day job wise. The problem is that IT jobs pay a lot better with less stress, less life hazards, and have regular business hours (something I have yet to see in 10 years). To me radio owners do not seem to want to replace the engineers that are moving on by keeping salaries competitive. Not much incentive for newer people who want to try to support a family or something.

I'm at the low end of the spectrum myself...well, maybe low-middle. I've had IT jobs, and I hate computers now because of it. Hate them - utterly. The only part of IT that holds any remaining interest for me is database management and data mining, which I find fascinating. I've heard good Oracle programmers make $250,000 a year. But if you think about it, that industry has its own rat race just like ours, it's just a lot bigger. Same fights, same penny pinching.

Everyone else I work with is married with kids, and their wives have full time professions. It most cases, the guy I work with makes less than his wife, works more hours, and has more crap to deal with. Radio isn't a pretty job, but at least it's interesting.

 

[spinjector]

Thanks for replying guys. I thought for sure no one would speak up.

Salary is like hemhorroids - no one ever wants to talk about it until it becomes critical. Then it's the first thing on everyone's mind, especially for those that sit on their brains. ;D

 

[Tom Wells]

The 80k figure is about right for a big market. Any less is not a living wage for someone who has any expectation of
living the "american dream". I was on the radio track, but stayed out, for several good reasons.
I am a electrical/electronic/computer field engineer for a printing press company, and in the last 10 years, have hovered around the
80k mark, with OT. These dollars certainly seem smaller over the years. My industry has the same problem regarding
the value of experience and the lack of qualified people. Hands-on people are vital, but the head office sees engineers as
something to be eliminated. I agree that radio is guilty of underpaying engineers, because of the supposed 'fun' factor.
The FCC is also to be blamed for eliminating the requirement for engineers, and the 1st Class License.

The real crime is that almost no engineer relies on a single "skill set" in their job, they are only useful in that they
can integrate several skills in an effective way. They must wear multiple hats. Mangement will only pay for one skill set, but
expect to hire people who can do more. While unfair, it is the only job security most engineering types really have.

I wanted more to live in Chicago than work in radio, and it might have taken 25 years to work up to a gig in Chicago.
I was not interested in making multiple relocations, so common for those in radio.
The only way sometimes to get a pay increase is to take a hike.
It's also the only way those in management will ever get the message of what's NOT enough pay.

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

They'll get the message loud and clear in about seven years when all the older guys retire out or can't work anymore. Joke's on them. Their pettyness in penny-pinching for pet projects, upper managment benifit packages, and ultimately the bottom line for the stock market is going to cost them dearly in the future. I, for one, will be laughing my ass off. Radio is and continues to be a very short-sighted industry that eats it's young and disrespects its veteran staff members. That won't change. The fun part is that it appears the industry is going to get to pay one hell of a stupid tax for the years of underpayment and lack of planning when they wake up one morning and there are only a handful of guys that still knows how to keep high-power RF reliabily on the air. It should be enough to put the head slimers into cold sweats every night worrying about it, but it isn't even in their thoughts right now. They are worried about the next sponsorship opportunity or the next promotion to do to get ratings up, etc.

Joke's on them...

 

[SeattleRadioPro]

Well hopefully that "market in the 10s" isn't the one referred to in your board name. The engineering community in Seattle is VERY close knit, so the market DOEs are probably already aware you're asking about salaries.

I've done budgets and I can tell you that $80k for a "general purpose engineer" is way out of the ballpark for the market size in question. $50 to $60k is more like it - and SBE certs might add a few grand IF the company you work for even recognizes them. Most won't even pay for your SBE membership, let alone certification.

 

[seattle_seeker]

Well hopefully that "market in the 10s" isn't the one referred to in your board name. The engineering community in Seattle is VERY close knit, so the market DOEs are probably already aware you're asking about salaries.

I've done budgets and I can tell you that $80k for a "general purpose engineer" is way out of the ballpark for the market size in question. $50 to $60k is more like it - and SBE certs might add a few grand IF the company you work for even recognizes them. Most won't even pay for your SBE membership, let alone certification.

no thats where i'm from originally... but it's a moot point now... i got word they decided to move ahead without me... didnt have anything to do with the money tho - i didnt get to the point where i could bring that up... which from what you say, may be a good thing... i might have embarassed myself... i guess i was overencouraged by the other posts earlier in the thread.... oh well.... the search goes on... :-/

 

[radiosaur]

Wow. I'm glad I found this thread. It reaffirms my decision to quit the business for other RF related engineering jobs.

In other industries, there are positions which require overnight and callout work, RF and technical skills, and the maintenance of multiple sites...much like radio broadcasting work...they usually pull down 100-120K with great benefits. Sheesh.

 

[NoTimeForSleep]

So what does everyone think it will take for owners to change their attitude towards engineering salaries and such?

 

[radiosaur]

Dereg did it. You gotta hand it to the NAB for the lobbying.

Think about it. I have to have a GROL to adjust a 5 watt aviation radio...but I can adjust a 100 KW ERP FM station with...basically nothing.

 

[jboydingram]

The old days will not return. We live in a throw away society...where it's made makes no difference, neither does "How do we fix it?". It is cheaper for the big guys to import a repair person fromanother site, or maintain a standby, rather than employ a competent on site technician.
They can depreciate the stand by facilities, and expense repair costs (even if from the factory). If you put the pencil to it, this is especially true in the "clusters".
Compare this to your salary and benefits,and other factors....You are too expensive as an employee. You are not alone...so move on...Thanks...JBI

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

I agree on the "thow away" factor on MANY things, however just because someone has a backup site doesn't mean they have the ability to neglect the main. The truth is that, although a backup can keep a person on the air, eventually something HAS to be fixed at transmitter sites. Transmitters aren't throw-away items.. yet. (although Harris acts like if you're stuff is over 10 it is!) Even if stuff is throw away, who the hell is going to adjust and hook the new stuff in the first place? That's right.. the engineering slave, even if he's a rented one. If you bring in someone either from corporate or contract it'll cost dearly.(go ask small-market radio sometime how much an hour most of these contract guys charge!) The truth is having a built-in slave for the day to day CAN save you money in a bigger cluster, opposed to renting an engineer as you have enough work to keep the guy loaded up 1000 percent without a break, and since you own him he's gotta deal with it. What is also true is that management will try to get the cheapest person they can to fufill that need and make them take care as much as they can possibly get away with in most cases. This attitude of management has or will eventually drive most of the better talent away to other professions so that all that will be left is people either stuck or crazy enough to put up with it because they love the work, etc. Those that love the work are becoming less and less in numbers because of the B.S. heaped on them daily and because the business is quite frankly becomeing less of the entertainment business and more corporate monkey buisness instead. When the older guys retire, there will be very little younger people to replace the ones that left for retirement. Next enters the contractors. Management will be forced to pay a lot more than they are used to and get sub-standard service from overworked contract labor. Minimals, even more than before, will be the standard. Crap will break and likely stay that way.. Off frequency, screwed up, and gimped up.Preventitive maintence even today is getting almost unheard of due to the overloading. It's already getting that way in many areas of the country. The only redeeming value in all of this is that the guys still in it, although ran to death, will be naming their price when they are saying grace over so many stations they can't name them all.

Radio companies are soooo short sighted.Their need for greed is eventually going to cost them more than if they had done what they should have in the first place in eventual higher engineering help rates and the costs of having stuff prematurely ruined due to lack of PM.

 

[jboydingram]

Thanks for your reply...many of your points are valid...BUT...
For a cluster of a corporate organization with many $$$ ,more than one engineer does not compute...notice I did not say they were un-needed, just do not figure in the P/L. Let's face it, they have made their financial decision, and all our rational is moot. So the prudent technical guy on the lower ranks should face reality. I am not sideing with the "big boys"...not a chance...but I have been in the engineering business for 50 years...it has been a downward spiral since the mid sixities. Want to stay in the decline? LOL, and just the facts. Thanks JBI

 

[littlejohn]

Them as choose to buy it piecemeal as required are not a problem. I occasionally work for them (When the project doesn't occur in my regular employers' markets and I have the time). I use the sideline money to support my hobbies - showing puppydogs and rebuilding old hotrods. I price it such that I do two or three days a quarter. I've no complaint with those who go for cheaper - you know what your time is worth, after all.

 

[jboydingram]

OK thanks for your comment...so apparently you do not see a return to the one station, one engineer days, eh?....Regards,,,JBI

 

[NoTimeForSleep]

For a cluster of a corporate organization with many $$$ ,more than one engineer does not compute...notice I did not say they were un-needed, just do not figure in the P/L.

While they are needed it's probably never going to happen. Is there any way that the clusters are going to take care of their people before they all run for the hills and radio is doomed?