Entercom's alternative experiment not a success?

[Kelly A]

In this case it's true, and when a niche demo is being served, but sometimes an overall number can indicate how the general population receives a station. For example, the alternative stations can serve the younger demo quite well, but they must have abyamal numbers for the older crowd to get something like a 2.3 in the 6+

By "younger demo", do you really mean 6-17YO children? Newsflash: that demo doesn't listen to radio anymore. Unless, they're in Mom's minivan on the way to school.
One example of market size doesn't fit all. You can't say that a 2.3 6+ in a market like Miami, is equivalent to a market like Kansas City, because of the total number of stations within the market, demographic makeup of the market, and ethnic makeup of the market. That's why stations and ad agencies rely on breaking down the numbers into categories.

So the trend is low 6+, format flip. Some can indicate no audience is being served

As we've all tried to explain multiple times: "Format flipping" is the LAST thing a station wants to do. It's expensive. REALLY expensive. That, and doing so based on 6+ ratings, would be colossally stupid.

 

[TheBigA]

As we've all tried to explain multiple times: "Format flipping" is the LAST thing a station wants to do. It's expensive. REALLY expensive. That, and doing so based on 6+ ratings, would be colossally stupid.

What these posters are trying to say is because these alternative stations are getting low 6+ ratings, they're likely to get flipped to another format. Inherent to to their discussion is the idea that Audacy is purposely programming these stations to fail so they can flip them to something else.

What this idea ignores is that the Audacy CEO has gone out of his way to add alternative stations to certain markets. The best example is Detroit, where Audacy had a soft rock station that was getting great 6+ ratings, and they flipped it to alternative, getting much lower 6+ ratings. Using the poster's logic, they would never do this. Yet it happened. Why is this example not brought up in this discussion?

New alternative radio station ALT 98.7 launched in Detroit

 

[tall_guy1]

By "younger demo", do you really mean 6-17YO children? Newsflash: that demo doesn't listen to radio anymore. Unless, they're in Mom's minivan on the way to school.
One example of market size doesn't fit all. You can't say that a 2.3 6+ in a market like Miami, is equivalent to a market like Kansas City, because of the total number of stations within the market, demographic makeup of the market, and ethnic makeup of the market. That's why stations and ad agencies rely on breaking down the numbers into categories.

As we've all tried to explain multiple times: "Format flipping" is the LAST thing a station wants to do. It's expensive. REALLY expensive. That, and doing so based on 6+ ratings, would be colossally stupid.

No, I meant the 25-34 yr old crowd (of which I'm a part of.) I know that different sized markets mean different things and larger ones are more likely to satisfy a niche market (like younger males). Demos are absolutely important which is why to hone in on those numbers. I'm just noticing a trend where low overall numbers (at least in kc) lead to a flip, probably where someone can be better served.

 

[TheBigA]

I'm just noticing a trend where low overall numbers (at least in kc) lead to a flip, probably where someone can be better served.

But you're making a selective observation, where it fits your narrative. I can give you loads of examples that show the opposite, as with Detroit, where a high rated soft rock station was flipped to alternative, or Seattle where the highest rated country station in the market was flipped to soft rock. How do you explain that?

 

[Kelly A]

No, I meant the 25-34 yr old crowd (of which I'm a part of.) I know that different sized markets mean different things and larger ones are more likely to satisfy a niche market (like younger males). Demos are absolutely important which is why to hone in on those numbers. I'm just noticing a trend where low overall numbers (at least in kc) lead to a flip, probably where someone can be better served.

That's the problem with using 6+ as any indicator. 25-34M-W is not considered young, and apparently neither are you. A "flip"? Again, (and again..and again..) no programmer or GM worth their salt, would be so stupid as to change formats based on 6+ ratings data. Why? Because in your example, their target demos are actually really respectable, in spite of your personal dislike for the music mix.

 

[tall_guy1]

But you're making a selective observation, where it fits your narrative. I can give you loads of examples that show the opposite, as with Detroit, where a high rated soft rock station was flipped to alternative, or Seattle where the highest rated country station in the market was flipped to soft rock. How do you explain that?

Again demos. I know in Detroit another alternative previously flipped, and they wanted to be a place for those listeners to hang their hats. The second case is kind of mind boggling to me, but I don't follow that market.

 

[tall_guy1]

That's the problem with using 6+ as any indicator. 25-34M-W is not considered young, and apparently neither are you. A "flip"? Again, (and again..and again..) no programmer or GM worth their salt, would be so stupid as to change formats based on 6+ ratings data. Why? Because in your example, their target demos are actually really respectable, in spite of your personal dislike for the music mix.

I don't have access to that data, though, so I'm making an observation based on what I know.

 

[TheBigA]

I know in Detroit another alternative previously flipped, and they wanted to be a place for those listeners to hang their hats.

As I often say, radio is not in the music distribution business. Giving alternative listeners "a place to hang their hats" was not the motivation. It's about money and that doesn't come from the 6+ numbers.

 

[Kelly A]

I don't have access to that data, though, so I'm making an observation based on what I know.

Correct. And you don't have enough information, or know enough about the inner workings of the business to come to the conclusions you do. You're letting your personal taste in music drive assumptions that aren't accurate.

 

[TheBigA]

Correct. And you don't have enough information, or know enough about the inner workings of the business to come to the conclusions you do. You're letting your personal taste in music drive assumptions that aren't accurate.

In fairness, it's not just him:

I have no agenda other than wishing the radio pros would stop pretending these ratings means “nothing” when I see station after station disappearing when they appear near the bottom. Not 100 percent of the time obviously, but a noticeable trend.

 

[kp2780]

Correct. And you don't have enough information, or know enough about the inner workings of the business to come to the conclusions you do. You're letting your personal taste in music drive assumptions that aren't accurate.

Could there at least be a compromise to this contentious debate that if a station is declining in 6+ it MIGHT indicate a problem in the demos?

I am not saying a station would flip based on 6+ numbers, only that I’ve noticed a trend in my market where it does happen. The flip is probably happening because the demos are in fact dropping, that’s what’s causing the 6+ to drop.

 

[TheBigA]

Could there at least be a compromise to this contentious debate that if a station is declining in 6+ it MIGHT indicate a problem in the demos?

"Contentious?" Who's being contentious? Facts are not contentious.

Even demographics don't tell the whole story. One of the things Audacy loves about alternative as a format is the fact that the audience likes live events. Audacy sells local live events. So there's money to be made from the format even if there isn't a lot of ad revenue on air. That's how they can do the 2 minute promise.

 

[tall_guy1]

"Contentious?" Who's being contentious? Facts are not contentious.

Even demographics don't tell the whole story. One of the things Audacy loves about alternative as a format is the fact that the audience likes live events. Audacy sells local live events. So there's money to be made from the format even if there isn't a lot of ad revenue on air. That's how they can do the 2 minute promise.

I think he's referring to stations in general and not alternative. Things like gen x radio a decade ago or aaa stations all but disappeared with low 6+ numbers, for example. Probably demos had to do with that as well.

 

[TheBigA]

I think he's referring to stations in general and not alternative. Things like gen x radio a decade ago or aaa stations all but disappeared with low 6+ numbers, for example. Probably demos had to do with that as well.

Demos and low revenue. AAA radio mainly appeals to boomers 60+, because of the mixture of old and new rock. That format might be the only place you'll hear current music by Robert Plant or Tom Rush. A few years ago, it mainly shifted to non-commercial stations because advertisers wouldn't support it. So it disappeared not only because of low 6+ numbers, but the lack of revenue. The current alternative format was heading in the same direction before the success of Billie Eilish.

A format that gets bad ratings is worth keeping if it attracts revenue that they can't get from the other stations in he cluster.

 

[davideduardo]

A format that gets bad ratings is worth keeping if it attracts revenue that they can't get from the other stations in he cluster.

Or when, combined with a cluster-mate, the combo just blows any competitor out of the water, sales wise.

One of the widely ignored advantages of multi-station clusters is the ability to sell sets or packages of stations that form strong combos in certain sales demos.

What that means is that a cluster of stations does not have to have every station in the top five or even in the top 10.

 

[tall_guy1]

Demos and low revenue. AAA radio mainly appeals to boomers 60+, because of the mixture of old and new rock. That format might be the only place you'll hear current music by Robert Plant or Tom Rush. A few years ago, it mainly shifted to non-commercial stations because advertisers wouldn't support it. So it disappeared not only because of low 6+ numbers, but the lack of revenue. The current alternative format was heading in the same direction before the success of Billie Eilish.

A format that gets bad ratings is worth keeping if it attracts revenue that they can't get from the other stations in he cluster.

Sort of makes me wonder why x1051 flipped from alternative a few years ago. It had greater ratings and a more "youthful" sound than krbz at the time.

 

[TheBigA]

Sort of makes me wonder why x1051 flipped from alternative a few years ago. It had greater ratings and a more "youthful" sound than krbz at the time.

So given their current ratings, when are they flipping, and to what format?

 

[tall_guy1]

So given their current ratings, when are they flipping, and to what format?

Now, I'm only going off of 6+, but they often beat KRBZ (96.5 the Buzz) with a 2.5 or higher, while KRBZ sat down in the lower 2s. They now currently have a 1.9, and are below as an active rock station. I don't know the demos, but I wonder why they flipped in 2019, if they held onto such a lucrative audience.

 

[tall_guy1]

25-34M-W is not considered young, and apparently neither are you.

Ouch!

 

[Kelly A]

Ouch!

If you were in what's considered a younger demographic, you wouldn't be arguing about some music mix on alternative stations. You would be listening to your own playlist on your phone, or getting new music via some social media site.