Entercom's alternative experiment not a success?

[macattack]

While we’re discussing the struggle of the format, KPNT shattered records and is the top station in the St. Louis market with a 10.0 share. It’s the best ratings that the station has ever had and the first time the station has led St. Louis.

6+ ratings again don’t mean a whole lot but a 10 share is extremely impressive for an Alt station right now. It’s worth analyzing what that station has done right and see if what it has accomplished has any chance of being replicated. It’s worth noting that their PD has publicly said that they had done a lot of research with 00’s and 10’s records and found a blend that satisfies both older and younger audiences even with fewer 90’s records in rotation.

EDIT: some additional food for thought.

Their adds this week were “A Disappearing Act” by Coheed and Cambria and “Grace” by Marcus Mumford.

Their top 5 songs are “Daylight” by Shinedown, “Natural Born Killer” by Highly Suspect, “No Apologies” by Papa Roach, “Ramon Ayala” by Giovannie & The Hired Guns, and “Broken” by Palaye Royale.

Their sample hour on AllAccess:

1. THIRD EYE BLIND “Semi-Charmed Life” (1997, G)
2. RED HOT CHILI PEPPERS “Tippa My Tongue” (2022, C)
3. BREAKING BENJAMIN “I Will Not Bow” (2009, G)
4. PALAYE ROYALE “Broken” (2022, C)
5. ALL-AMERICAN REJECTS “Dirty Little Secret” (2005, G)
6. THE STRUTS “Fallin’ With Me” (2022, C)
7. MUSE “Uprising” (2009, G)
8. FALLING IN REVERSE “Voices In My Head” (2022, C)
9. SUBLIME “What I Got” (1996, G)
10. GIOVANNIE AND THE HIRED GUNS “Ramon Ayala” (2021, C)
11. LINKIN PARK “Breaking The Habit” (2003, G)
12. TURNSTILE “Holiday” (2022, C)
13. LOVELYTHEBAND “Broken” (2017, G)

 

[TheBigA]

While we’re discussing the struggle of the format KPNT shattered records and is the top station in the St. Louis market with a 10.0 share. It’s the best ratings that the station has ever had and the first time the station has led St. Louis.

Your post only talks about music. Radio stations are not music distribution services. You can play those exact same songs on WNYL and won't get the same results.

There are two big reasons why KPNT is #1: Heritage and The Rizzuto Show. How many songs do they play during morning drive? I don't see anything spectacular about their music list. Those are all commercially available songs that get airplay elsewhere. But the only place to hear The Rizzuto Show is on KPNT.

 

[macattack]

Your post only talks about music. Radio stations are not music distribution services. You can play those exact on WNYL and won't get the same results.

There are two big reasons why KPNT is #1: Heritage and The Rizzuto Show. How many songs do they play during morning drive? I don't see anything spectacular about their music list. Those are all commercially available songs that get airplay elsewhere. But the only place to hear The Rizzuto Show is on KPNT.

The Rizzuto Show is a big factor. However, we’ve been mostly discussing music and not the personalities in this everlong thread so I wanted to keep things consistent. That 10 share doesn’t come exclusively from Rizzuto.

Hubbard backed a dump truck full of cash into the driveway to retain Rizzuto because he brings such enormous ratings. He’s had the #1 morning show in the market for years. It feels like the rest of the station has started following him in recent months, in addition to his popularity growing ever bigger.

Both PD Tommy Mattern and MD Donny Fandango have spoken about the increasing ratings in recent months and they’re crediting the music and the way they’re adding and blending it. They’re crediting Rizzuto as well but they have both said they have found a music mix that works. You may not find it spectacular but KPNT is a rare Alt that plays a lot of current music that is finding success, and that is worth noting.

EDIT: found the Tommy Mattern interview and hot linked it.

 

[TheBigA]

PD Tommy Mattern[/URL] and MD Donny Fandango have spoken about the increasing ratings in recent months and they’re crediting the music and the way they’re adding and blending it.

If Rizzuto got hired by iHeart and they built a station around him, ratings at The Point would drop, regardless of the music. You see the same thing in a lot of markets where rock is doing well, such as Philadelphia with WMMR.

 

[macattack]

If Rizzuto got hired by iHeart and they built a station around him, ratings at The Point would drop, regardless of the music. You see the same thing in a lot of markets where rock is doing well, such as Philadelphia with WMMR.

Oh they absolutely would drop. I don’t think anyone is arguing that. But I think the music is working as well. It’s a combination of factors that is making things work. Disruption would make things drop, no matter how well executed the unaffected parts of the formula are.

KPNT just replaced their afternoon DJ, and it’ll be interesting to see if that affects the ratings in the coming months.

 

[MarkW]

I love this line from Tommy's interview:

"We make our own decisions and don’t have to answer to a regional manager or format captain who doesn’t know what the Alternative Rock music fan in St. Louis wants to hear."

Gee, I wonder if that explains why so many of Audacy's alternative stations perform so poorly?

 

[TheBigA]

Gee, I wonder if that explains why so many of Audacy's alternative stations perform so poorly?

Kevin Weatherly has a similar deal in LA. How's he doing?

 

[Theater of My Mind]

Now 'adventurous fans' get their music live from someone's bedroom posted on TikTok. New music isn't hitting Alt playlists, because it isn't being produced by record labels.

The major labels do have some. The rest of the good stuff is on indie labels and is well represented at college radio, but big radio has a symbiotic relationship with the three major labels and only a very small percentage of indie stuff gets through any more.

The reason for this, as covered during numerous payola hearings, is that indie labels have a propensity for getting radio stations in trouble. And vice versa. The majors have more to lose, so they're less likely to play hanky panky.

I think you are confusing indie labels with independent promoters who were deeply involved with the money payoffs between the major labels and radio.

Most indie LABELS have no budget for payola, even if they wanted to pay for play.

I have to follow up on this because Billboard just published an excellent new story about it.

Since Big A clearly does not understand the difference between an independent promoter and an independent label, it is explained here. Also explained is how pay-to-play really is shutting out the independent labels and how the majors actually thrive on this system, contrary to Big A's belief that the majors have something to lose and are somehow less likely to play hanky panky. They have obviously been playing whatever-you-want to-call-it all along, and this speaks to the symbiotic relationship between the major labels and big radio.

To bring it back to the original point, it's also why so much great new alternative music -- which by definition is supposed to be an alternative to the mainstream -- isn't hitting Alt playlists.

https://www.billboard.com/pro/indie-labels-radio-pay-for-play

 

[TheBigA]

Since Big A clearly does not understand the difference between an independent promoter and an independent label,

I understand the difference as subsequent posts indicate.

As I've been saying, music from indie labels get lots of airplay. Morgan Wallen is on an indie label. He has the top selling album right now. Maybe instead of whining about radio, these guys should make GOOD MUSIC. Then it would get played. Nobody has to pay radio stations to play Morgan Wallen, Jason Aldean, or lots of other big stars.

Does it cost money to be in the music business? Yes it does. It costs millions. But very little of that money goes to radio. And there are lots of alternatives to broadcast radio. The problem remains that everyone has an opinion, and everyone only wants to hear what they like. It's hard to build a consensus where none exists.

 

[Theater of My Mind]

As I've been saying, music from indie labels get lots of airplay.

The Billboard article includes those statistics an no, it's not lots. If you have credible statistics showing otherwise, please post them.

Maybe instead of whining about radio, these guys should make GOOD MUSIC. Then it would get played.

Maybe you should read the article. No it wouldn't.

 

[Kelly A]

Since Big A clearly does not understand the difference between an independent promoter and an independent label, it is explained here. Also explained is how pay-to-play really is shutting out the independent labels and how the majors actually thrive on this system, contrary to Big A's belief that the majors have something to lose and are somehow less likely to play hanky panky. They have obviously been playing whatever-you-want to-call-it all along, and this speaks to the symbiotic relationship between the major labels and big radio.

The middle men promoters started several years ago when the major labels cut staff music promoters. Middle men promoters may claim they have better access to getting music played on radio, that's what you're paying for. In reality, there's little stopping the independent record label from going directly to radio stations. They just might not have the resources, and choose to farm that part out. But as BigA mentioned; if the independent labels are only producing crap, then radio isn't going to play it. Doesn't matter who promotes it.

 

[davideduardo]

The Billboard article includes those statistics an no, it's not lots. If you have credible statistics showing otherwise, please post them.

The Billboard article refers to independent promoters that worked "exclusively" with specific stations, and that practice went into almost total decline more than a decade ago; the independents that are left are simply subcontractors that promote for small labels that have no promo staff.

The article is using old experiences as related by people in the so-called independent music sector. Hint: The Joe Isgro era is long gone.

Small labels HAVE to hire independent promotors unless they want to open a half-dozen regional offices and hire a dozen or so promo people. This is a problem caused by being small in a big country, and has nothing to do with radio at all.

There are no interviews with folks from big stations or big labels as they would have clarified all of that.

This is why "nobody" in radio subscribes to Billboard any more... and haven't for decades.

Maybe you should read the article. No it wouldn't.

The article is totally one sided. Simply put, if you are a small label or an artist on one, you have to hire outsiders to do promotion.

 

[Theater of My Mind]

People commenting in this thread who are not all that familiar with the Alternative format and/or alternative and indie music don't seem to understand how much good music in this genre is released on indie labels. This is not an issue of indie labels only producing crap. If anything, an abundance of crap resides on the majors, they're the ones paying to get it played and that's where the issue is.

If you want a glimpse of the kind of alternative music being released by the indie labels the latest college charts are always a good resource:
https://naccchart.com/charts

 

[davideduardo]

The middle men promoters started several years ago when the major labels cut staff music promoters. Middle men promoters may claim they have better access to getting music played on radio, that's what you're paying for. I

Small labels have always hired independent promoters to handle all promotion or all but the biggest markets. That is because they don't have regional promotion offices and staffs.

Sun Records and Motown both used "indies" to make their big entries into the business... back in the 50's and 60's. Any small label that does not have a national promotion staff is going to have to get someone else to do the work. That is the same today as it was 60 to 70 years ago.

Big Deal.

 

[Theater of My Mind]

The Billboard article refers to independent promoters, and that practice went into almost total decline more than a decade ago. The article is using old experiences as related by people in the so-called independent music sector. Hint: The Joe Isgro era is long gone.

There are no interviews with folks from big stations or big labels as they would have denied all of that.

Why should anyone expect them to do otherwise? And with all due respect David, you're probably the biggest defender of corporate radio on this site and your response comes as no surprise either.

This is why "nobody" in radio subscribes to Billboard any more... and haven't for decades.

This just seems like an ad hominem attack against one of the most reputable sources of music industry news because you don't like the reporting. Your allegation that nobody in radio subscribes is simply not believable apart form the fact that one does not need a subscription to read it.

 

[Kelly A]

People commenting in this thread who are not all that familiar with the Alternative format and/or alternative and indie music don't seem to understand how much good music in this genre is released on indie labels. This is not an issue of indie labels only producing crap. If anything, an abundance of crap resides on the majors, they're the ones paying to get it played and that's where the issue is.

You're just making the statement to be contrarian, and you have a some sort of beef with commercial radio.

If you want a glimpse of the kind of alternative music being released by the indie labels the latest college charts are always a good resource:

There's a reason and place for college stations with a much smaller audience, and commercial stations who appeal to a much larger audience/more mass appeal. It doesn't mean one is evil or inferior, and the other somehow angelic plus misunderstood.

 

[Theater of My Mind]

You're just making the statement to be contrarian, and you have a some sort of beef with commercial radio.

I am a fan of commercial radio done well and I listen to those stations every day. But you're partly right, I have a beef with certain practices, sure. Don't we all? This forum would be pretty dull if we all just loved and agreed with everything radio does.

There's a reason and place for college stations with a much smaller audience, and commercial stations who appeal to a much larger audience/more mass appeal. It doesn't mean one is evil or inferior, and the other somehow angelic plus misunderstood.

Yeah, I didn't post that chart to suggest commercial radio should be playing everything on it. The point is take a look at the quality of music being released on indie labels, especially in this format. Some of the more accessible college indie hits would likely crossover to commercial alternative if it weren't for the inseparable relationship between the major labels and big radio.

In other formats that relationship is to be expected and it works fine, but Alternative was originally -- and to some degree should still be -- an alternative to that.

 

[davideduardo]

Why should anyone expect them to do otherwise? And with all due respect David, you're probably the biggest defender of corporate radio on this site and your response comes as no surprise either.

All commercial radio is "corporate radio" as its goal is to make money. My first station in 1964 was licensed to a corporation i owned, so it was "corporate" and if it had not succeeded, it would have been due to my own bad management decisions.

This just seems like an ad hominem attack against one of the most reputable sources of music industry news because you don't like the reporting. Your allegation that nobody in radio subscribes is simply not believable apart form the fact that one does not need a subscription to read it.

That comment of mine was not an "attack". It is a reality. Since the 70's I've never been in a radio station that subscribed to Billboard because the information in it is not of use to radio. It's a valuable resource to the music industry as well as to related Internet fields and even to folks who work with live shows and tours. But it's not a radio-related publication.

In this case, the reporter took the opinion of an independent label and made a blanket indictment of both radio and music out of it. The issue here is not with Billboard but with the reporter who did a decidedly single-sided story.

In fact, small labels that don't have a promotion department of their own have to hire independent "agents" to do that job. No different than hiring a roofer to replace your shingles because you can't do it yourself. There is nothing evil or malignant in that situation.

 

[Kelly A]

I am a fan of commercial radio done well and I listen to those stations every day. But you're partly right, I have a beef with certain practices, sure. Don't we all?

No, I don't. That's because I understand how the business works, including having been one of those 'evil' corporate guys.

This forum would be pretty dull if we all just loved and agreed with everything radio does.

I agree, this is a discussion board, not an agreement board. That said; everyone has their side based on direct knowledge or experience, not necessarily just opinion.

Yeah, I didn't post that chart to suggest commercial radio should be playing everything on it. The point is take a look at the quality of music being released on indie labels, especially in this format. Some of the more accessible college indie hits would likely crossover to commercial alternative if it weren't for the inseparable relationship between the major labels and big radio.

None of this is new. The major labels have existing connections, research, and access to major artists. That doesn't mean there's some evil cabal of radio stations and major labels trying to keep the indies down. Commercial stations have played indie label content for years. But most times only if it's worth playing based on research. Other than some after hours play, testing music on the air is a fools errand.

In other formats that relationship is to be expected and it works fine, but Alternative was originally -- and to some degree should still be -- an alternative to that.

But, as has been mentioned many times here, new artists and music aren't represented by any label. That's because younger people looking for new music are getting it via social media. They don't rely on radio for that anymore.

 

[Loverofradio]

As I've been saying, music from indie labels get lots of airplay. Morgan Wallen is on an indie label. He has the top selling album right now. Maybe instead of whining about radio, these guys should make GOOD MUSIC. Then it would get played. Nobody has to pay radio stations to play Morgan Wallen, Jason Aldean, or lots of other big stars.

Whats “good music”? Respectfully, that kind of seems opinion based, does it not? That’s like me saying, with many chr stations down, they should make “better music”. But, those artists in many cases are well decorated with awards. So who am I to say they should make “good music”