Equipment changes have blown me away

[ruger22com]

O.K. granted. we live in a digital world (hell,I own half a dozen computers and hdmi tv stuff.) but the other day my pre-amp (YES..I said pre-amp!) in my Onkyo Rack system died.
I bought this system about 20 years ago...after growing up poor in a wealthy area (Birmingham Michigan) where I saw many of my rich friends dad's had "invested" in high end audio systems (macintosh, crown, tube stuff) with the idea that there sound systems would last a lifetime and be top quality, I wanted to follow that line of thinking.
So, about 20 years ago I decided (after owning many a little junk stereo system) I would do the same...so I investigated (solid state was really kicking butt then) and bought for around $3,000 (back 20 years ago) a Onkyo component rack system with two big ole hairy speakers (I wanted Ohm F's, but they were hard to find) a turntable, tuner, single disk cd (cd's were brand new then), an equalizer, a fat old 200 watt power amp and a pre-amp that controlled everything. And it has performed and sounded amzaing for the past 20 years.

So last week when I heard the pop and smelled the puff of smoke...I started looking around for a pre-amp to replace the one that died.

So I hit the internet and started searching all the home audio equipoment sites (including Onkyo)

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!! what???? they don't make pre-amps anymore????????? I was in a state of shock....my preamp controls my whole system!
Sure, I could buy a new "home theatre system" but my amp, equalizer, duel cassette, cd, and the rest are in great shape and still sound amazing!!!!!

In a daze I stumbled into circuit City's repair department where I was told they could not send anything off to fix if it was more than 10 years old, and I watched and two repair geeks chuckled, and fingered my precious pre-amp screaming "Hey dude...look at this cool antique this dude brought in!"

with luck, after another web search, I found a place in pennsylvania that actually specializes in restoring old Onkyo systems, so I shipped the pre-amp off to them last night (After almost buying a nice little Denon receiver...oh well...).

I just thought I would share this little tale...and one who has always been at the front of technical equipment...and who was amazed that an era has pretty much passed as far as pre-amps go.

I wonder what we will see in a radio station if we walk into one 20 years from now.....just a little black box on a desk with pre-programmed everything I guess. I sure miss those old first class licenses!

Bob martin

 

[radiosaur]

I wonder what we will see in a radio station if we walk into one 20 years from now.....just a little black box on a desk with pre-programmed everything I guess. I sure miss those old first class licenses!

Bob martin

Radio stations? In 20 years? You gotta be kidding.

 

[Turntable]

You can still buy preamps. Just not at Jerk-it city or Best Buy. Find a local high end audio shop and check it out. They'd be happy to assist you!

-A

 

[DarkStarPDX]

I have a friend that picked up an Outlaw pre-amp. Performance is great on it!

 

[Info-warrior]

Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, most consumer outlets don't deal in component systems wit seperate pre and power amplifiers. I have to say, today's bookshelf stereos are worlds better sound wise than the ones I grew up with

If the Onkyo isn't repairable, from a cost perspective, then, you'll either have to search the net or find a high end audio or Home theater outlet.

As for radio stations, the future is now. Many are run by black boxes known as Starguide receivers and rack mounted servers running Nexgen.

I recently found an article in an old issue of Monitoring Times discussing this trend, and this was back in 1996.

 

[jammerdave]

Check this guy out:
http://classicaudio.com/

Tim Whyte is the owner and is an expert in the repair and restoration of older high end gear. He can probably fix your preamp. Tim is also an excellent contract broadcast engineer (my backup) and a great friend.

dave

O.K. granted. we live in a digital world (hell,I own half a dozen computers and hdmi tv stuff.) but the other day my pre-amp (YES..I said pre-amp!) in my Onkyo Rack system died.
I bought this system about 20 years ago...after growing up poor in a wealthy area (Birmingham Michigan) where I saw many of my rich friends dad's had "invested" in high end audio systems (macintosh, crown, tube stuff) with the idea that there sound systems would last a lifetime and be top quality, I wanted to follow that line of thinking.
So, about 20 years ago I decided (after owning many a little junk stereo system) I would do the same...so I investigated (solid state was really kicking butt then) and bought for around $3,000 (back 20 years ago) a Onkyo component rack system with two big ole hairy speakers (I wanted Ohm F's, but they were hard to find) a turntable, tuner, single disk cd (cd's were brand new then), an equalizer, a fat old 200 watt power amp and a pre-amp that controlled everything. And it has performed and sounded amzaing for the past 20 years.

So last week when I heard the pop and smelled the puff of smoke...I started looking around for a pre-amp to replace the one that died.

So I hit the internet and started searching all the home audio equipoment sites (including Onkyo)

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!! what???? they don't make pre-amps anymore????????? I was in a state of shock....my preamp controls my whole system!
Sure, I could buy a new "home theatre system" but my amp, equalizer, duel cassette, cd, and the rest are in great shape and still sound amazing!!!!!

In a daze I stumbled into circuit City's repair department where I was told they could not send anything off to fix if it was more than 10 years old, and I watched and two repair geeks chuckled, and fingered my precious pre-amp screaming "Hey dude...look at this cool antique this dude brought in!"

with luck, after another web search, I found a place in pennsylvania that actually specializes in restoring old Onkyo systems, so I shipped the pre-amp off to them last night (After almost buying a nice little Denon receiver...oh well...).

I just thought I would share this little tale...and one who has always been at the front of technical equipment...and who was amazed that an era has pretty much passed as far as pre-amps go.

I wonder what we will see in a radio station if we walk into one 20 years from now.....just a little black box on a desk with pre-programmed everything I guess. I sure miss those old first class licenses!

Bob martin

 

[Info-warrior]

Check this guy out:
http://classicaudio.com/

Tim Whyte is the owner and is an expert in the repair and restoration of older high end gear. He can probably fix your preamp. Tim is also an excellent contract broadcast engineer (my backup) and a great friend.

dave

O.K. granted. we live in a digital world (hell,I own half a dozen computers and hdmi tv stuff.) but the other day my pre-amp (YES..I said pre-amp!) in my Onkyo Rack system died.
I bought this system about 20 years ago...after growing up poor in a wealthy area (Birmingham Michigan) where I saw many of my rich friends dad's had "invested" in high end audio systems (macintosh, crown, tube stuff) with the idea that there sound systems would last a lifetime and be top quality, I wanted to follow that line of thinking.
So, about 20 years ago I decided (after owning many a little junk stereo system) I would do the same...so I investigated (solid state was really kicking butt then) and bought for around $3,000 (back 20 years ago) a Onkyo component rack system with two big ole hairy speakers (I wanted Ohm F's, but they were hard to find) a turntable, tuner, single disk cd (cd's were brand new then), an equalizer, a fat old 200 watt power amp and a pre-amp that controlled everything. And it has performed and sounded amzaing for the past 20 years.

So last week when I heard the pop and smelled the puff of smoke...I started looking around for a pre-amp to replace the one that died.

So I hit the internet and started searching all the home audio equipoment sites (including Onkyo)

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!! what???? they don't make pre-amps anymore????????? I was in a state of shock....my preamp controls my whole system!
Sure, I could buy a new "home theatre system" but my amp, equalizer, duel cassette, cd, and the rest are in great shape and still sound amazing!!!!!

In a daze I stumbled into circuit City's repair department where I was told they could not send anything off to fix if it was more than 10 years old, and I watched and two repair geeks chuckled, and fingered my precious pre-amp screaming "Hey dude...look at this cool antique this dude brought in!"

with luck, after another web search, I found a place in pennsylvania that actually specializes in restoring old Onkyo systems, so I shipped the pre-amp off to them last night (After almost buying a nice little Denon receiver...oh well...).

I just thought I would share this little tale...and one who has always been at the front of technical equipment...and who was amazed that an era has pretty much passed as far as pre-amps go.

I wonder what we will see in a radio station if we walk into one 20 years from now.....just a little black box on a desk with pre-programmed everything I guess. I sure miss those old first class licenses!

Bob martin

I noticed Adcom was listed under one of the links on that site. I'll have to look into that as I have a power amp that has a nasty hum/buzz on the left channel. I think a driver and or final(s) may have been fried when a downstream device's output failed.

 

[Studio1]

When I started my time as a radio engineer in the early 80s, it was the tail end of valve gear. In fact, we only ever did some very basic training on valves. When someone staggered in with a valve radio, it was "old-timer's stuff".

To the young board changers of today (I say board changers as many can only do that) anything that doesn't come in a compact micro-box and play mp3s is an "antique".

A few years ago I realised the way electronics was going and started to hang on to my 19" separate component stereo units. Then I started hunting down more gear from the 80s that was built in the same fashion - solid, dependable and quality. My gear will outperform any of today's nasty little micro-boxes with their hybrid output ICs and one-chip audio systems.

We have roadside hard rubbish collections here and a couple of years ago I was driving through the area where they were having one, and something caught my eye. I stopped and got out to have a look. It wasn't what I thought it was, but as I was standing there surveying all the rubbish, I looked down and (hidden from road view) was a Perreaux SM3 19" preamp!

I was like No one chucks one of THOSE out! I wasn't dreaming however, and I scooped it up. Turns out there was nothing wrong with it - probably just tossed out by one of the "today" breed who don't understand quality!

My reference to board-changers above was in light of the fact that so much of today's electronics isn't serviceable to component level like it was back in the 80s. If something breaks down today, you pull it apart, find the faulty board and replace the whole board - if you even do that. So much stuff is not even serviceable and if it dies, it gets thrown out and replaced.
Accordingly, many young techs I have met have no idea how to fault-find, or what to replace if they did.

 

[RadioMan203]

Here, here, Studio1, you've said a mouthful and you're right on the money.

While I was lucky enough to get into broadcasting and engineering while in my teens I was lucky enough to be exposed to tube (i.e., valve) equipment not only in the broadcast world but due to the fact I wanted to learn about electronics. While tube gear may be antiques, many higher power broadcast transmitters still use 'em and many of the "board changers" don't have a clue about them and must depend on the factory for help. I consider myself lucky to have the background to know about tube theory by practical experience in the real world.

Unfortunately, some stuff is so poorly designed that even a board swapper must send stuff back to the factory. I was told by another engineer I know that they had an HD exciter where the power supply died. Mind you, this is no more complicated than a PC. The power supply was so nested in the box that the factory recommends sending the unit back to them for repair. What the hell? So, if you don't have a spare HD exciter you're off the air? Doesn't sound like a good plan of action to me.

The first FM I worked at had a 60's vintage Gates transmitter - pretty simple unit, with basic relay controls and that's about it. 10 years later I did contract engineering for an FM with 2 BE boxes - both computerized and any time a major power hiccup happened it would send the microprocessors into la-la land. Just what you want, a 50KW signal going bye-bye without notice. They had a backup, but still - having to deal with this on a semi-regular basis. At least you could pull the boards and replace them in the field.

I'm pretty darn good with performing component level repairs but many manufacturers discourage this for a variety of reasons. Some use multi-layer printed circuit boards and if you're not careful you'll ruin the copper traces sandwiched in the middle - turning the board into a doorstop. Some use proprietary components which they won't sell, but will gladly use to factory repair your unit at a premium price. Many don't even socket their semiconductors anymore to save money on sockets, the plus side is a small increase in reliability by eliminating socket contact corrosion. Some use surface mount technology and I'd be damned if I'm going to buy a pricey specialized soldering station on the chance that particular component is the culprit in a failure.

BTW: I'm also in the same line of thinking as Studio1, with older, higher quality audio gear from myself. I have some digital gear, but I love my older analog stuff and still actively restore vinyl-sourced music since many of my favorites aren't released to CDs.

 

[ruger22com]

I found this place on the web: http://www.bcelectron.com/repair_brands/onkyo_repairs/ That specializes in old onkyo stuff and sent it off...this was before I read some of the above posts. so if it blows again, I may grab an outlaw pre-amp...it looks mighty tasty.

I remember back in the mid 70's when I worked on-air at WCZY-FM in Detroit, our company built a brand new studio and building, so when they were tossing out a bunch of old "Junk" erquipment, I grabbed several old tube run crown tuners and amps from the "junk pile". I made a fortune selling them to audio junkies in the thrifty nickle papers. I wish I had saved the old DX mike we had at our AM when that too moved into the new building...I still think that is the best sounding microphone I have ever seen or used!

 

[RadioFixerCLE]

My reference to board-changers above was in light of the fact that so much of today's electronics isn't serviceable to component level like it was back in the 80s. If something breaks down today, you pull it apart, find the faulty board and replace the whole board - if you even do that. So much stuff is not even serviceable and if it dies, it gets thrown out and replaced. Accordingly, many young techs I have met have no idea how to fault-find, or what to replace if they did.

Ain't that the truth. Some time back I was hanging out with a friend at a radio station one night and I saw a nice, brand-new Eventide BD600 profanity delay unit sitting on the workbench that was supposed to be installed later that week. I just randomly hit the buttons before leaving and noticed the "Panic" button would get stuck when you pressed it in. So I told my buddy about it.

A couple of weeks later I returned to the place and the box was still sitting there. "So what's with this?" I asked my friend. "Oh, we have an RA number on it, it's going back to the company."

Sitting around with nothing to do, I decide to crack open this (under warranty) unit. After removing the PC board that held the front panel switches, I noticed that the problem button was kind of slightly askew -- it hadn't been seated and soldered straight into the board. A few minutes with a soldering iron and some gentle pressure on the switch to push it back down fixed the problem.

The delay unit was working properly now. An easy repair that could have been done by any rank idiot off the street, no fancy test gear or understanding needed - just a good pair of eyes. What gives? And here I am....32 years old. :-[

Weird.

 

[Studio1]

The delay unit was working properly now. An easy repair that could have been done by any rank idiot off the street, no fancy test gear or understanding needed - just a good pair of eyes. What gives? And here I am....32 years old. :-[

Weird.

Pick any rank idiot off the street and they wouldn't have the slightest clue on how to repair something. This kind of skill is just not taught now. Chances are, they can't spell properly, have no idea about grammar, probably write using "txt speak" and skills like addition or multiplication were bypassed when they were about 5yrs old.

I can add items in my head faster than the checkout girl can punch them into the register - I've got the total and worked out the change before she's had time to suck the saliva out of the bull-ring that's stuck in her bottom lip.

I seriously wonder if there are even any kids being trained in the electronics industry - and if there are, what they are being taught, because it certainly isn't of much practical use!

 

[Info-warrior]

While I can't nit pick on the math thing as I tend to flip numbers around a lot--perhaps it's some type of learning disability--I can say that the college courses I took geared towards audio, video, and broadcasting didn't cover even basic equipment maintainance.

One professor spent a decent part of class time discussing the importance of different colored windscreens on microphones, but wasn't able to figure out which side of the tape goes against the heads of the reel to reel: note, it was the kind of tape that had the black back.

As for broadcasting schools, I was talking with a few grads from one of the better known schools one day about my hobby radio station. When I told them I had an FM transmitter in my collection, some asked what's that? Thinking they wanted more specifics, I gave the make and model. They asked, no what does it do? After a basic explination, they replied something to the effect of 'Oh, so it's like a radio.'

Bear in mind, this is only my experience at one point in time and with a limited number of individuals. Also, I am by no means a tech wizard and still have much to learn.

Thinking of learning. That same college professor who lectured about windscreens absolutely hated if anyone said that an audio control board routes signals. He went so far as to say the the AES says it's technically incorrect to say an audio console routes signals. What do the pros say?

 

[The F Mister]

Being a youngster myself I was wondering, what's the point of fixing complex units these days. Shore it's a shame that people like me don't learn soldering at school, you can never learn enough. But this only comes in handy on older gear which we probably never encounter. And when we do encounter and we really have to get our hands dirty we could get far with the help of the internet or some "old school guy".
I'm not saying that the old schematics are simple but try to figure out a multiple layer motherboard in your computer ???. It's an art designing these boards, I shore don’t have the time to figure those out, and when you might figure one out it's old as hell and replaced by newer stuff even more complicated. It's far more cheaper to replace, time is money. There are so much more craftsmanship’s that just don't exist anymore. This might just be one of them.

 

[Eli Polonsky]

There are some independent audio and electronics stores that will repair older and "vintage" equipment (when possible), but watch out. Some of them may tell you they've found that your vintage receiver or amp is completely shot, unrepairable, parts aren't available, etc... and then they may say "It's junk, you might as well just leave it with us, you'd just have to discard it anyway... We'll get rid of it for you..."

A year later, there's your vintage piece of equipment, repaired and restored, bidding for $1000 on eBay, at least three times more money than they could've reasonably charged you to fix it...

One of them tried that scam on me. I went down there and grabbed my vintage mid-'70s Marantz receiver back from them and had it repaired elsewhere. I knew that was what would've happened if I hadn't.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Today's Tech

A couple quick comments...

A friend of mine was talking to a prospective tech hiree and asked him if he had soldering skills. The kid (22-year-old) said that he didn't, and that it wasn't taught at the tech school that he went to. When my friend expressed surprise, the answer he got from the prospect was that the school was unable to teach soldering because of the environmental issues with lead solder, flux, poisonous vapors, etc. Apparently, schools have to deal with internal agencies that make OSHA and the EPA look like a bunch of sissies. He was told that the cost of hooded enclosures, blah-blah-blah, was well beyond what the department could afford for a skill that is increasingly useless.

Secondly, Stephanie likely violated the warranty of the delay unit. Let's hope it doesn't fail during the warranty period.

And, finally, there aren't a lot of new things that can be soldered, or repaired on a component level because the components are embedded in ICs. If you're lucky, you've got replaceable boards. If not, it's one big motherboard with multiple layers. Ever try to solder a connection to just layer 2 of 4? If you can find somebody who can tell you which unit failed, you're doing OK. If you can find someone who can tell you which board inside a box failed, hire them.

 

[sparks794]

But what REALLY scares the hell out of me is stations that use "kids" to work on their transmitter. I was an advisor years ago for a school program (high school program) when I got a call one night from a 17 year old student. He was asking me questions about the 3000VDC screen supply in a 3.5KW FM transmitter. He had the back door open and was asking me how to read the supply with a VOM.

My answer to him was to shut out the lights on the way out the door and tell the cheap butt owner to call someone qualified.

 

[RadioFixerCLE]

retarded doublepost

 

[RadioFixerCLE]

But what REALLY scares the hell out of me is stations that use "kids" to work on their transmitter. I was an advisor years ago for a school program (high school program) when I got a call one night from a 17 year old student. He was asking me questions about the 3000VDC screen supply in a 3.5KW FM transmitter. He had the back door open and was asking me how to read the supply with a VOM.

Hey now, how do you expect us new jacks to learn? Seriously though, there's nothing wrong with teaching a 17 year old how to work around high B+, but don't just throw him in there and expect him to sink or swim.

ESPECIALLY if they ask if he can measure 3,000 volts with a small multimeter!!

A friend of mine was talking to a prospective tech hiree and asked him if he had soldering skills. The kid (22-year-old) said that he didn't, and that it wasn't taught at the tech school that he went to. When my friend expressed surprise, the answer he got from the prospect was that the school was unable to teach soldering because of the environmental issues with lead solder, flux, poisonous vapors, etc.

That's just sad. I was taught by the CE at a college FM station when I was 15 years old. In about 5 or 10 minutes he showed me how to hold the iron and apply the solder to the joint. Then he made me solder and assemble a few XLR plugs onto cables for the new studio he was building.

The rest was just practise and knowing what to look for and how to do it -- cold solder joints, etc.

 

[RadioMan203]

Working in a school district, I see what now passes for "Tech Ed" and it's pretty sad to say the least. Besides no soldering skills, most everything is a simulation on a computer. I like learning by doing and I feel you can't easily show real world conditions via a simulation - it's better to have someone build the circuit and find out for themselves. Heck, these kids don't even get exposed to things like o'scopes, etc. It seems tech ed. gives today's students very little practical education with these skills. While I learn a lot while going to a vocational-technical high school most of my experience I learning on my own as well as from a couple of ham operators and the technical director of our local community FM station that served as my mentor.

I was never ignorant enough to even dream of trying to measure a B+ supply with a VOM, but I suppose if it's not being taught the generation of today isn't going to have a clue in that regard.

I'm hoping to mentor some high school students in the future and I hope to pass on some of the knowledge that I was lucky enough to benefit from, some of which had served me well in my engineering career.