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Espanol on 530AM?

D

DeltaKing

Guest
Punching the "seek" button here in Memphis the other night, came across a station in broadcasting in Spanish on 530AM. Faded in and out and only latsed for about 10-15 minutes. Even though I do not speak it, it sounded like Spanish religion. Any ideas?

DK
 
> Punching the "seek" button here in Memphis the other night,
> came across a station in broadcasting in Spanish on 530AM.
> Faded in and out and only latsed for about 10-15 minutes.
> Even though I do not speak it, it sounded like Spanish
> religion. Any ideas?
>
> DK
>

I often get a Spanish station on 530 here in Wisconsin at night. Its usually always faint, but its there. Sometimes its strong enough for the seek button to stop.
<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
> > Punching the "seek" button here in Memphis the other
> night,
> > came across a station in broadcasting in Spanish on 530AM.
>
> > Faded in and out and only latsed for about 10-15 minutes.
> > Even though I do not speak it, it sounded like Spanish
> > religion. Any ideas?
> >
> > DK
> >
>
> I often get a Spanish station on 530 here in Wisconsin at
> night. Its usually always faint, but its there. Sometimes
> its strong enough for the seek button to stop.
>
Radio Vision Cristiana Internacional.

http://www.radiovision.net/quienes.htm

The 530 station is in the Turks and Caicos.
 
Here, in SE PA., I'm also getting a Spanish station at 530 AM. What is 540? It almost sounds like a Mouse station with all the dedications and "shout outs" from teeny boppers. Normally, it's WLIE during the daytime. One last new catch is 1690 CNN radio.Does anyone know what happened to Lebovitcher radio on 1710? TIA!
 
> Here, in SE PA., I'm also getting a Spanish station at 530
> AM. What is 540? It almost sounds like a Mouse station with
> all the dedications and "shout outs" from teeny boppers.
> Normally, it's WLIE during the daytime. One last new catch
> is 1690 CNN radio.Does anyone know what happened to
> Lebovitcher radio on 1710? TIA!

While the 530 Spanish is probably Turks and Caicos, there is also an ethnic station on 530 near Toronto that I believe runs occasional Spanish. The T&C station is religious and simulcasts 1330 New York City.

The 540 "Mouse station" is WWCS in suburban Pittsburgh.

Lebovitcher on 1710 has been reported as recently as earlier this week, so they're still around.
 
> Punching the "seek" button here in Memphis the other night,
> came across a station in broadcasting in Spanish on 530AM.
> Faded in and out and only latsed for about 10-15 minutes.
> Even though I do not speak it, it sounded like Spanish
> religion. Any ideas?

On Saturday's Radio Marti takes to 530 from time to time from an airplane-based transmitter. Fidel responds by powering up a 100,000 watt transmitter on 530 which airs a sampling of Havana radio stations, most recently Radio Cadena Habana. Most people hearing Spanish on 530 are probably hearing Cuba because they will leave the 530 transmitter on during the week, but Spanish religion will -not- be Cuba, although a Fidel speech sometimes sounds like preaching.
 
Re: Totally untrue.

> > Punching the "seek" button here in Memphis the other
> night,
> > came across a station in broadcasting in Spanish on 530AM.
>
> > Faded in and out and only latsed for about 10-15 minutes.
> > Even though I do not speak it, it sounded like Spanish
> > religion. Any ideas?
>
> On Saturday's Radio Marti takes to 530 from time to time
> from an airplane-based transmitter. Fidel responds by
> powering up a 100,000 watt transmitter on 530 which airs a
> sampling of Havana radio stations, most recently Radio
> Cadena Habana. Most people hearing Spanish on 530 are
> probably hearing Cuba because they will leave the 530
> transmitter on during the week, but Spanish religion will
> -not- be Cuba, although a Fidel speech sometimes sounds like
> preaching.

This is just not factual. The Radio Martí program is congressionally chartered, and has full disclosure, including its own website. There is essentially no way to transmit effectively from a plane on an AM frequency, especially a low and one. To get a ground, one would have to have a dipole antenna, and it would need to be over 1000 feet long. A moving plane could not maintain this vertically.

I have never heard of AM being transmitted from a plane, as AM sites are, ideally, in soft, loamy soil or salt flats or marshes. High AM sites are disasters.

Cuba has no transmitters on 530, but the 530 one from the Turks & Caicos is on fulltime in Spanish with 50 kw serving the Greater Antilles from the Dominican Republich to Cuba.

I'd love to know the source of this false information.

The only Marti transmitter even remotely like this is the tetherd baloon at Cudjoe key, which transmits TV to Cuba. TV and FM like height. AM does not.
>
 
Re: Totally untrue.

> This is just not factual. The Radio Martí program is
> congressionally chartered, and has full disclosure,
> including its own website. There is essentially no way to
> transmit effectively from a plane on an AM frequency,
> especially a low and one. To get a ground, one would have to
> have a dipole antenna, and it would need to be over 1000
> feet long. A moving plane could not maintain this
> vertically.

I look forward to your profound apology. If you spent 30 seconds remembering that Google is your friend, you wouldn't have wrote any of this.

American armed forces PsyOps airborne units have used mediumwave transmitters for decades. They were used in Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Cuba. They not only work well, they cover far beyond anticipated coverage areas. People in Norway were hearing "Information Radio" intended for Iraqis.

In this case it's an EC-130 "Commando Solo" aircraft of the 193rd Special Operations Wing (SOW) is used to broadcast Radio Martí programs on 530 kHz mediumwave with a power of 10 kW on Saturdays.

> I have never heard of AM being transmitted from a plane, as
> AM sites are, ideally, in soft, loamy soil or salt flats or
> marshes. High AM sites are disasters.

Because you have not personally heard of it does not mean it isn't happening.

> Cuba has no transmitters on 530, but the 530 one from the
> Turks & Caicos is on fulltime in Spanish with 50 kw serving
> the Greater Antilles from the Dominican Republich to Cuba.

You are simply incorrect. You can Google dozens of loggings on Cuba on 530, but here is Glenn Hauser's World of Radio summaries. Search for Cuba and you'll see several reports about the radio war between Marti and Fidel up and down the page:

http://www.worldofradio.com/wor2005.html

> I'd love to know the source of this false information.

Are you ready? RADIO MARTI themselves! In fact, visit this web site, and you'll find an audio recording of Radio Marti announcers promoting their new 530 frequency!

http://www.malm-ecuador.com/arch-07-08-2004.html

The info about the Cuban transmitters comes from more than a dozen loggings and detailed discussions about which station Fidel will throw on 530 next.

Seriously, I don't want to attack you, but the next time you was to accuse me of throwing around false information, take a moment and do some actual research yourself first. <P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by dampier on 06/17/05 12:25 AM.</FONT></P>
 
The T&C station is also on 1310 in Mt. Kisco, NY. WVIP. CNN Radio 1690 is WPTX Lexington Park, MD.<P ID="signature">______________
~Jay Clark~
</P>
 
Re: Totally untrue.

> > This is just not factual. The Radio Martí program is
> > congressionally chartered, and has full disclosure,
> > including its own website. There is essentially no way to
> > transmit effectively from a plane on an AM frequency,
> > especially a low and one. To get a ground, one would have
> to
> > have a dipole antenna, and it would need to be over 1000
> > feet long. A moving plane could not maintain this
> > vertically.
>
> I look forward to your profound apology. If you spent 30
> seconds remembering that Google is your friend, you wouldn't
> have wrote any of this.

I really doubt this. I worked for Marti in the past, and contacted several Marti staffers today (I was in Miami) and they said this is a crock. They tried renting time on the T&C station, but this is apparently now off the agenda due to budget. There is no airborn broadcast that anyone, including the programming manager, knows about.
>
> American armed forces PsyOps airborne units have used
> mediumwave transmitters for decades. They were used in
> Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Cuba. They not only work
> well, they cover far beyond anticipated coverage areas.
> People in Norway were hearing "Information Radio" intended
> for Iraqis.

The radio Airbornes, which have been extensively written up, are of two types. FMs from the air, and AM portable stations, flown in and assembled on the ground as usual with AM stations. Several of the equipment manufacturers did mailing on the portable rigs used in Bosnia... Harris provide the military with several stations in ro-ro trailers that could be st up in less than 48 hours in occupied areas. ON THE GROUND.
>
> In this case it's an EC-130 "Commando Solo" aircraft of the
> 193rd Special Operations Wing (SOW) is used to broadcast
> Radio Martí programs on 530 kHz mediumwave with a power of
> 10 kW on Saturdays.

This would be illogical, and improbable. The 50 kw Turks and Caicos is only a hundred fifty or so miles away, and has a big tower with a salt water ground. No airborne signal over the keys could possible make landfall in Cuba with T&C on the air. (Of course, what really was happening is that Marti was trying a conditional rental of the T&C station... which has existed for years.)
>
> > I have never heard of AM being transmitted from a plane,
> as
> > AM sites are, ideally, in soft, loamy soil or salt flats
> or
> > marshes. High AM sites are disasters.
>
> Because you have not personally heard of it does not mean it
> isn't happening.

Since I have been in broadcast engineering, directly as a CE, or indirectly, for over 40 years and an accomplished MW DXer, I think I would have heard of this. A fly-in portable rig is not an airborn stations. It is cargo.
>
> > Cuba has no transmitters on 530, but the 530 one from the
> > Turks & Caicos is on fulltime in Spanish with 50 kw
> serving
> > the Greater Antilles from the Dominican Republich to Cuba.
>
>
> You are simply incorrect. You can Google dozens of loggings
> on Cuba on 530, but here is Glenn Hauser's World of Radio
> summaries.

There is no regularly operating Cuban on 530 according to AM DX clubs (NRC and IRCA); The 530s are in Canada, T&C, Costa Rica, Argentina and Ecuador. The Hauser publication has been known to contain inaccurate data.

> Search for Cuba and you'll see several reports
> about the radio war between Marti and Fidel up and down the
> page:
>
> http://www.worldofradio.com/wor2005.html
>
> > I'd love to know the source of this false information.
>
> Are you ready? RADIO MARTI themselves! In fact, visit this
> web site, and you'll find an audio recording of Radio Marti
> announcers promoting their new 530 frequency!

The page talks about Marti on 530 in August of 2004; there has been no AM DX publication to report this then or now. Any 530 transmission of Marti was on leased facilities of Turk & Caicos, not an airborn transmitter and not a separate transmitter. There is a big difference between an airborn transmitter and rented time on a long-standing station in "Caribbean."

>
> The info about the Cuban transmitters comes from more than a
> dozen loggings and detailed discussions about which station
> Fidel will throw on 530 next.

Strangely, neither the NRC nor the IRCA have reported either. The 530, of course, is rented time and not a separate transmitter.
>
> Seriously, I don't want to attack you, but the next time you
> was to accuse me of throwing around false information, take
> a moment and do some actual research yourself first.
>
 
Re: Totally untrue.

> I really doubt this. I worked for Marti in the past, and
> contacted several Marti staffers today (I was in Miami) and
> they said this is a crock. They tried renting time on the
> T&C station, but this is apparently now off the agenda due
> to budget. There is no airborn broadcast that anyone,
> including the programming manager, knows about.

I don't believe you. Sorry, but this doesn't hold water when you can read online Kenneth Y. Tomlinson, Chairman, Broadcasting Board of Governors which RUNS Radio & TV Marti through the Office of Cuba Broadcasting openly discussing it in testimony before Congress. Again, Google is your friend. He specifically discusses the AIRBORNE AM & TV broadcasts from Radio & TV Marti. It's not a secret. If you'd like to produce some names and phone numbers of these people at Marti, I'd be glad to call them and bring them up to date with what their own station is doing.

> The radio Airbornes, which have been extensively written up,
> are of two types. FMs from the air, and AM portable
> stations, flown in and assembled on the ground as usual with
> AM stations. Several of the equipment manufacturers did
> mailing on the portable rigs used in Bosnia... Harris
> provide the military with several stations in ro-ro trailers
> that could be st up in less than 48 hours in occupied areas.
> ON THE GROUND.

You are referring to a different platforms - the ground based SOMS-B mobile outfits. I am referring to the airborne facilities. Commander Solo planes can broadcast on AM, FM, SW and even television. They can also jam communications.

Information Radio, which broadcast programs to Iraq prior to the invasion, aired from transmitters on board the aircraft on 693 kilohertz. Since there was no capability for ground based operations prior to the invasion, Commander Solo flights were the source for the mediumwave broadcasts. Post invasion, the military brought in the SOMS-B mobile transmitters. Again, you can read a plethora of articles discussing the capabilities of these airborne services online including their successful use in mediumwave broadcast applications.

> This would be illogical, and improbable. The 50 kw Turks and
> Caicos is only a hundred fifty or so miles away, and has a
> big tower with a salt water ground. No airborne signal over
> the keys could possible make landfall in Cuba with T&C on
> the air. (Of course, what really was happening is that Marti
> was trying a conditional rental of the T&C station... which
> has existed for years.)

"The Radio Marti testing initiatives included adding two high power short-wave frequencies per hour, for a total of six frequencies per hour over a 24-hour period, and the addition of a second AM frequency transmitted from the same airborne platform that delivered the television signal," said Tomlinson.

"We also believe the second AM frequency was clear throughout much of the island," he added.

Marti is building their own ground based transmitter facilities on the T&C. The planned frequency is 1570.

> Since I have been in broadcast engineering, directly as a
> CE, or indirectly, for over 40 years and an accomplished MW
> DXer, I think I would have heard of this. A fly-in portable
> rig is not an airborn stations. It is cargo.

Open yourself to new possibilities.

> There is no regularly operating Cuban on 530 according to AM
> DX clubs (NRC and IRCA); The 530s are in Canada, T&C, Costa
> Rica, Argentina and Ecuador. The Hauser publication has been
> known to contain inaccurate data.

So when you are given documentation your answer is just to dismiss the source?

> The page talks about Marti on 530 in August of 2004; there
> has been no AM DX publication to report this then or now.

...except for the ones you dismissed.

> Any 530 transmission of Marti was on leased facilities of
> Turk & Caicos, not an airborn transmitter and not a separate
> transmitter. There is a big difference between an airborn
> transmitter and rented time on a long-standing station in
> "Caribbean."

RVC 530 is not airing Radio Marti programs... they have a full programming commitment on that frequency. Nothing on the T&C is airing Marti until they finish their own facility which will air on 1570. The battle is between the Solo airborne MW service and Cuba - it was logged just a week ago when Havana literally signed off 530 long enough to check if Marti was on the frequency. When they were, they signed back on.

But I saved the best for last. You might want to inform those folks you claim to know at Radio Marti about their own web site, which lists the Radio Marti broadcasts on 530, and clearly identifies them as coming from their "airborne" broadcasting service.

http://www.martinoticias.com/frequencies.htm
 
Re: Totally untrue.

> > I really doubt this. I worked for Marti in the past, and
> > contacted several Marti staffers today (I was in Miami)
> and
> > they said this is a crock. They tried renting time on the
> > T&C station, but this is apparently now off the agenda due
>
> > to budget. There is no airborn broadcast that anyone,
> > including the programming manager, knows about.
>
> I don't believe you. Sorry, but this doesn't hold water
> when you can read online Kenneth Y. Tomlinson, Chairman,
> Broadcasting Board of Governors which RUNS Radio & TV Marti
> through the Office of Cuba Broadcasting openly discussing it
> in testimony before Congress. Again, Google is your friend.
> He specifically discusses the AIRBORNE AM & TV broadcasts
> from Radio & TV Marti. It's not a secret. If you'd like to
> produce some names and phone numbers of these people at
> Marti, I'd be glad to call them and bring them up to date
> with what their own station is doing.

There is no airborn AM broadcasting, period.

The TV operation is airborn in the sense it is done from an antenna and low power transmitter on a tethered baloon over Cudjoe Key, FL. TV and FM have the advantage that, directionalized, they can get large antenna gain with a low power transmitter.

AM transmitters are big and inefficient. Even the latest Harris, BE and Nautels are huge, and use huge amounts of electricity.

A 10 KW FM lobe could be aimed at Cuba from the baloon using a 500 watt rig into a very direcitonal antenna, and FM transmitters are very efficient. Less than 1 kw will run the transmitter and related audio gear.

A 10 kw AM (Medium Wave) signal can not be directionalized while airborne, as directionality is a function of very considerable differences in phase and wavelength difference between multiple radiators. So to put out 10 kw would require well over 20 kw of power.

Not only is that not going to happen from a plane (again, a wavelength on 530 is around 600 meters... nearly 2000 feet. A quarter wave dipole is going to be 1000 feet long, and there is no way to feed such a contraption from the air since it requires a center feed.

And, finally, there is a 50,000 station on 530 just a tiny distance over salt water from Miami. In fact, it can be heard daytime easily all along the eastern seabord of FL, although its target is Hispaniola and Cuba. There is no way the US is going to put Marti on 530, since it would require 100 to 200 kw to overpower Radio Vision Cristiana, not to mention the public relations debacle that such a jamming of a US owned religious station would produce.

(Which is why Marti rents RVC on Saturdays in a short term deal to see if 530, daytime, is better than 1180)

I certainly am not going to give out phone numers of friends to someone who insists Marti has an airborne station on 530... any more than I would give you my social security number. I have managed, consulted and programmed stations in Miami going back to the early 70's and a large number of the Marti staff has worked with me or for me.

>
> You are referring to a different platforms - the ground
> based SOMS-B mobile outfits. I am referring to the airborne
> facilities. Commander Solo planes can broadcast on AM, FM,
> SW and even television. They can also jam communications.

May I see one picture of an AM airborn antenna... especially one that, using low power and an antenna with no ground system can overcome a 50,000 watt station with a salt water ground just a tiny distance away (no distance, if you consider the conductivity of salt water is 5000)
>
> Information Radio, which broadcast programs to Iraq prior to
> the invasion, aired from transmitters on board the aircraft
> on 693 kilohertz. Since there was no capability for ground
> based operations prior to the invasion, Commander Solo
> flights were the source for the mediumwave broadcasts. Post
> invasion, the military brought in the SOMS-B mobile
> transmitters. Again, you can read a plethora of articles
> discussing the capabilities of these airborne services
> online including their successful use in mediumwave
> broadcast applications.

Links, please. Especially ones that show how an incredibly inefficient airborne radiator could overcome a land based system sitting right below it with infiately more power.

I truly suspecct the airbornes you refer to were FM or TV, which is pretty easy to do (Indiana broadcast educational TV from a pair of DC3's with fold-our superturnstyle antennas as far back as the 60's. But AM works when grounded, not when in the air.
>
>
> "The Radio Marti testing initiatives included adding two
> high power short-wave frequencies per hour, for a total of
> six frequencies per hour over a 24-hour period, and the
> addition of a second AM frequency transmitted from the same
> airborne platform that delivered the television signal,"
> said Tomlinson.

This is a baloon. It could not hold a directional SW antenna if it tried. In fact, Marti SW comes from Greenville, SC, and occupies a huge amount of real estate. AM on a baloon from Cudjoe would have gotten wide reports... and not on US MW club has mentioned it once, since it does not exist... this is a daytime Saturday brokered show on RVC in the Turks and Caicos Islands.
>
> "We also believe the second AM frequency was clear
> throughout much of the island," he added.

Because it is RVC's Turks transmitter.
>
> Marti is building their own ground based transmitter
> facilities on the T&C. The planned frequency is 1570.

There was a station on 1570 there before. There are also several 1570's in the Dominican Republic, which would be of significant interference. And ground conductivity, even over salt water, on 1570 means the signal would only be useful right along the beach... it would die within kilometers of the shore.
> Open yourself to new possibilities.
>

> RVC 530 is not airing Radio Marti programs... they have a
> full programming commitment on that frequency. Nothing on
> the T&C is airing Marti until they finish their own facility
> which will air on 1570. The battle is between the Solo
> airborne MW service and Cuba - it was logged just a week ago
> when Havana literally signed off 530 long enough to check if
> Marti was on the frequency. When they were, they signed
> back on.

Per one DXer who has been invited to not participate in the tow US MW clubs.

There is no way, with the Turks and caicos RVC on the air, for a intended for Cuba to be broadcast... because the RVC transmitter was located in the T&C to broadcast the Gospel to Cuba!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a 50,000 watt station with a salt water ground... it essentially lands on Cuba with a city grade signal all the way to La Habana.
>
> But I saved the best for last. You might want to inform
> those folks you claim to know at Radio Marti about their own
> web site, which lists the Radio Marti broadcasts on 530, and
> clearly identifies them as coming from their "airborne"
> broadcasting service.

Which is, as can be seen, simply a mistake. There is no SW transmission from the baloon, either.

If you want, we can take the websites of a random selection of US radio stations and I wager that each one will have a significant number of pieces of incorrect or outdated data on them.
 
Re: Totally untrue.

I guess it's a pride thing now because we are expected to believe that you know better than the guy who runs the whole Office of Cuba Broadcast operation, the people that actually operate and fly the Commander Solo missions, the individuals that have logged these signals, RVC themselves which say they are not broadcasting any Radio Marti programming on 530 because they have a full schedule of their own programming, Radio Marti's own website, the recordings of Radio Marti made on 530, the government's own documents authorizing the construction of a facility on the T&C on 1570. They are apparently all wrong, but you are somehow right.

I don't think so.

> I certainly am not going to give out phone numers of friends
> to someone who insists Marti has an airborne station on
> 530...

In other words, you fold. It's okay to try and use these people to bolster your argument, but if anyone wants to check it out, then it's suddenly Deep Throat around here.

> May I see one picture of an AM airborn antenna... especially
> one that, using low power and an antenna with no ground
> system can overcome a 50,000 watt station with a salt water
> ground just a tiny distance away (no distance, if you
> consider the conductivity of salt water is 5000)

Google is your friend, for the third time. BTW, this is from the U.S. Air Force's own public information about Commander Solo:

"Air Force Mission: Commando Solo conducts psychological operations and civil affairs broadcast missions in the standard AM, FM, HF, TV and military communications bands. Missions are flown at maximum altitudes possible to ensure optimum propagation patterns. The EC-130 flies during either day or night scenarios with equal success, and is air refuelable. A typical mission consists of a single-ship orbit which is offset from the desired target audience. The targets may be either military or civilian personnel."

> Links, please. Especially ones that show how an incredibly
> inefficient airborne radiator could overcome a land based
> system sitting right below it with infiately more power.

This is your argument. You are the only one saying AM airborne broadcasting can never ever work. Find your own links to prove your point. I've got a crowd behind me. You are standing alone at the moment.

> I truly suspecct the airbornes you refer to were FM or TV,
> which is pretty easy to do (Indiana broadcast educational TV
> from a pair of DC3's with fold-our superturnstyle antennas
> as far back as the 60's. But AM works when grounded, not
> when in the air.

Nobody denies they can do FM or TV, but the government's own representatives and documents and testimony before Congress say they include and use AM as well. You are the only one saying otherwise.

> > "The Radio Marti testing initiatives included adding two
> > high power short-wave frequencies per hour, for a total of
>
> > six frequencies per hour over a 24-hour period, and the
> > addition of a second AM frequency transmitted from the
> same
> > airborne platform that delivered the television signal,"
> > said Tomlinson.
>
> This is a baloon. It could not hold a directional SW antenna
> if it tried. In fact, Marti SW comes from Greenville, SC,
> and occupies a huge amount of real estate. AM on a baloon
> from Cudjoe would have gotten wide reports... and not on US
> MW club has mentioned it once, since it does not exist...
> this is a daytime Saturday brokered show on RVC in the Turks
> and Caicos Islands.

It's amazing. You shot down your own argument. The people in charge of the project say it's airborne. You say it's a balloon. Then you say there is no way it could be a balloon. Wow.

BTW, I don't doubt that in the past RM may have leased time for this daytime show on RVC. But that is past history. Again, there is no daytime Marti broadcast on 530. Radio Marti's own schedule shows they fire up 530 at 1800 local time. That's dinner time.

> There was a station on 1570 there before. There are also
> several 1570's in the Dominican Republic, which would be of
> significant interference. And ground conductivity, even over
> salt water, on 1570 means the signal would only be useful
> right along the beach... it would die within kilometers of
> the shore.

I don't do the frequency planning for the U.S. government.

> Per one DXer who has been invited to not participate in the
> tow US MW clubs.

Did those people at Marti tell you that? BTW, to be "invited" to participate means you send in your loggings. If you don't send them to every DX club out there, that does not mean they are untrue. But if you'd care to produce your source on who dis-invited this person from these two clubs, we can check that out too.

> Which is, as can be seen, simply a mistake. There is no SW
> transmission from the baloon, either.

The only one who sees that as a mistake is you because it disproves your argument. Nobody says shortwave originates from a balloon. Those broadcasts come from transmitters in North Carolina and California which also carry VOA. The mediumwave and FM broadcasts come from the Florida Keys along with channels 18/50/64. The AM on 530 and the TV on 13 come from the Commander Solo flights.

> If you want, we can take the websites of a random selection
> of US radio stations and I wager that each one will have a
> significant number of pieces of incorrect or outdated data
> on them.

I am not arguing that either, but let me close out this thread (because it is getting repetitive and I'm sure boring to everyone else) by making a more directed wager. I have written to Michael F. Pallone, OCB/E Technical Director and Don Mansfield, both of whom were involved in the preparation of Radio Marti's online schedule, and asked them to confirm the veracity of their online schedule. I will happily post whatever they reply with here. Anyone else interested in writing can find their addresses at the bottom of the Radio Marti schedule. If they say there is no airborne 530 frequency, you'll see me post that and I'll concede. If they say there is, I hope you will value the information, which is REALLY what is important here, more than your argument and that you will concede. After all, the original issue here is what's going on on 530? The more information brought to the table, the better for all.
 
Re: Please look at a map.

> I guess it's a pride thing now because we are expected to
> believe that you know better than the guy who runs the whole
> Office of Cuba Broadcast operation, the people that actually
> operate and fly the Commander Solo missions, the individuals
> that have logged these signals, RVC themselves which say
> they are not broadcasting any Radio Marti programming on 530
> because they have a full schedule of their own programming,
> Radio Marti's own website, the recordings of Radio Marti
> made on 530, the government's own documents authorizing the
> construction of a facility on the T&C on 1570. They are
> apparently all wrong, but you are somehow right.

Please look at a map. There is no way for the 530 Radio Visión Cristiana to coexist on 530 with a separate Martí transmitter... and this is my main point.

RVC, reported using a Nautel 50 kw transmitter in a half wave antenna on the shore has 5.0 mv/m coverage all the way to La Habana... guessing that the coastal areas of Cuba have the same ground conductivity as coastal Puerto Rico, that gives a conductivity of 5000 to the shore, and about 5 to 10 on the coastal areas, so a decent signal will penetrate 20 to 30 miles inland in eastern Cuba (Oriente, etc) and at least 10 miles in the La Habana area.

I had my daughter try to tune in RVC yesterday in Old San Juan at Fortaleza, the Governor's Mansion. It is located no farther than 2 miles from water on the north, south and east. She said it came in "like a station from Arecibo" which means listenable, but not local strength. That is several hundred miles away in a noisy urban environment. How can Marti operate on 530 with RVC also on? Nearly impossible if the idea is to be listenable in Cuba.

You still have not provided any conclusive proof that an but a minusculely powered AM can be operated from an aircraft in flight. In additon, it is totally impossible to directionalize an AM from a plane. This, of course, does not obviate the main point that there is no advantage to altitude on AM, and, in fact, many disadvantages since there is no ground system so a diplole of considerable vertical length would have to be used, and it would have to be center fed.

There are a few cases of tethered baloons being used for emergency antennas when a tower is knocked down. I have been part of one such effort. However, such systems are "airborn" only in the sense that a tethered ballon is used to hold a vertical wire up in the air to replace a tower that has fallen, with the practical limits being a few hundred feet before winds become so severe a problem that a lower inverted L on a crane or a pole is a better emergency choice... all the while using the miles of radials left from the fallen tower site for a ground.

"These signals" have not been logged and reported to the NRC or IRCA, the two major MW DX clubs in the US. The only references to logging appear in Hauser's publications... and have a real Radio Swan / Radio Americas quality to them. The fact that the head of the Radio Martí Program does not know about the technical realities does not surprise me. Most radio management knows nothing about the technical operations... many US managers have never seen their own transmitter sites and would not know an Optimod from an Omnia.
>
> > I certainly am not going to give out phone numers of
> friends
> > to someone who insists Marti has an airborne station on
> > 530...
>
> In other words, you fold. It's okay to try and use these
> people to bolster your argument, but if anyone wants to
> check it out, then it's suddenly Deep Throat around here.

I am certainly not going to give friends' phone numbers out in public, especially since the reason would be to have someoen who thinks anything but a flea power station on 530 could broadcast from a plane. Suffice it to say that I have worked for Martí under a Congressional mandate, and have been a general manager, consultant, programmer and even engineer to a varity of Miami Spanish stations including WQBA, WAQI, WAMR, WRTO, WHTT, WCMQ and WSUA over the years. I have a moderate clue about Marí, the Causa Cubana (I was awarded a "Champion of Cuban Freedom" award 24 years ago, in fact, for work during the Mariel Boatlift.
>
> > May I see one picture of an AM airborn antenna...
> especially
> > one that, using low power and an antenna with no ground
> > system can overcome a 50,000 watt station with a salt
> water
> > ground just a tiny distance away (no distance, if you
> > consider the conductivity of salt water is 5000)
>
> Google is your friend, for the third time. BTW, this is
> from the U.S. Air Force's own public information about
> Commander Solo:
>
> "Air Force Mission: Commando Solo conducts psychological
> operations and civil affairs broadcast missions in the
> standard AM, FM, HF, TV and military communications bands.
> Missions are flown at maximum altitudes possible to ensure
> optimum propagation patterns. The EC-130 flies during either
> day or night scenarios with equal success, and is air
> refuelable. A typical mission consists of a single-ship
> orbit which is offset from the desired target audience. The
> targets may be either military or civilian personnel."

There are NO optimum radiation patterns for AM from a plane. It is essentially undoable except at very low power. The planes can broadcast FM and SW signals while airborne, an old concept. But they carry AM transmitters and put them up on the ground. Otherwise, the range would be like an Airport Traffic transmitter... a few miles at best. Might work while overflying a battle zone, but not to provide service to Cuba where the planes can NOT overfly Cuba and must operate from miles and miles away... AM does not work well with out a terrestrially based antenna and ground.
>
> > Links, please. Especially ones that show how an incredibly
>
> > inefficient airborne radiator could overcome a land based
> > system sitting right below it with infiately more power.
>
> This is your argument. You are the only one saying AM
> airborne broadcasting can never ever work. Find your own
> links to prove your point. I've got a crowd behind me. You
> are standing alone at the moment.

I have built dozens of staitons, AM and FM, from scratch, including directional AMs and high latitude FM sites (one at 14,000 feet AMSL). This includes antenna design, ATU design, diplexer design, transmitter design and construction form scratch and studio design and construction. There is no evidence I have ever seen that anything but a few watts can be broadcsast from a plane in flight on MW, and then it would be far easier on the high part of the band.
>
> > I truly suspecct the airbornes you refer to were FM or TV,
>
> > which is pretty easy to do (Indiana broadcast educational
> TV
> > from a pair of DC3's with fold-our superturnstyle antennas
>
> > as far back as the 60's. But AM works when grounded, not
> > when in the air.
>
> Nobody denies they can do FM or TV, but the government's own
> representatives and documents and testimony before Congress
> say they include and use AM as well. You are the only one
> saying otherwise.

I believe this is all a lack of understanding of "airborn" which refers to the Cudjoe Key tethered ballon (at 20,000 feet, it is certainly airborn) and lack of knowledge that such a facility can not transmit an AM signal to Cuba, especially when the frequency has RVC on it with huge power and a salt water ground.

Please explain how Martí, assumig a separate transmitter, coulde possible "talk" to Cuba with RVC on the air? This is why I suspect (but have not confirmed, as I said) that they are leasing time on RVC, just as the VOA did on a dozen US MW stations in the 60's to carry VOA to Cuba.
>
> >
> > This is a baloon. It could not hold a directional SW
> antenna
> > if it tried. In fact, Marti SW comes from Greenville, SC,
> > and occupies a huge amount of real estate. AM on a baloon
> > from Cudjoe would have gotten wide reports... and not on
> US
> > MW club has mentioned it once, since it does not exist...
> > this is a daytime Saturday brokered show on RVC in the
> Turks
> > and Caicos Islands.
>
> It's amazing. You shot down your own argument. The people
> in charge of the project say it's airborne. You say it's a
> balloon. Then you say there is no way it could be a
> balloon. Wow.

Again, Cudjo is airborn, but it is a baloon. It has existed for over a decade. The baloon can not transmit directionalized SW nor can it broadcast AM unless the tether itself radiates... but that does not overcome the fact that RVC is running huge power right across the water from them.

> BTW, I don't doubt that in the past RM may have leased time
> for this daytime show on RVC. But that is past history.
> Again, there is no daytime Marti broadcast on 530. Radio
> Marti's own schedule shows they fire up 530 at 1800 local
> time. That's dinner time.

Which makes no sense at all. Low frequency AM does not produce good night skywave, yet is subject to all kinds of low-band tropical static, common in that area (I owned AMs at 570, 590 and 660 in the near-ecuatoria zones and am very familiar with the coverage reduction of low band AMs at night.
>
> > There was a station on 1570 there before. There are also
> > several 1570's in the Dominican Republic, which would be
> of
> > significant interference. And ground conductivity, even
> over
> > salt water, on 1570 means the signal would only be useful
> > right along the beach... it would die within kilometers of
>
> > the shore.
>
> I don't do the frequency planning for the U.S. government.

Then you have to take this all with a grain of salt. The real rumor is that they are taking the 1020 site in T&C and going to use it, directionalized to protect KDKA (Just as 1180 is directionalized for the same reason) as this is an existing station. This has been talked about in DX and engineering circles.
>
>
> > Per one DXer who has been invited to not participate in
> the
> > tow US MW clubs.
>
> Did those people at Marti tell you that?


No, I know it from 47 years membership in NRC, and as being a founding member of the IRCA.

> BTW, to be
> "invited" to participate means you send in your loggings.
> If you don't send them to every DX club out there, that does
> not mean they are untrue. But if you'd care to produce your
> source on who dis-invited this person from these two clubs,
> we can check that out too.

I was a director of the IRCA in the 60's. And the MW clubs do vastly more than publish loggings. But, since you are not a member and have neither seen DX News nor the Monitor, this is understandable.
>
> > Which is, as can be seen, simply a mistake. There is no SW
>
> > transmission from the baloon, either.
>
> The only one who sees that as a mistake is you because it
> disproves your argument. Nobody says shortwave originates
> from a balloon. Those broadcasts come from transmitters in
> North Carolina and California which also carry VOA.

Marti does not use CA transmitters at Delano. You can go to Delano and see that no curtain is aimed at the caribbean; all the Martí SW comes from greenville.

> The
> mediumwave and FM broadcasts come from the Florida Keys
> along with channels 18/50/64. The AM on 530 and the TV on
> 13 come from the Commander Solo flights.

Medium wave is at the old VOA Marathon site, on 1180 with 100 kw. And I really doubt that there is an AM on a plane.
>
> > If you want, we can take the websites of a random
> selection
> > of US radio stations and I wager that each one will have a
>
> > significant number of pieces of incorrect or outdated data
>
> > on them.
>
> I am not arguing that either, but let me close out this
> thread (because it is getting repetitive and I'm sure boring
> to everyone else) by making a more directed wager. I have
> written to Michael F. Pallone, OCB/E Technical Director and
> Don Mansfield, both of whom were involved in the preparation
> of Radio Marti's online schedule, and asked them to confirm
> the veracity of their online schedule.

No one doubts the schedule. What is unfathomable is how AM that could reach Cuba is being broadcast from a plane and how this is even possible due to RVC being on the air independently with a monster signal at the same time, per your theory. Management has been known to not know what engineering really does, and I expect this is the case.

> I will happily post
> whatever they reply with here. Anyone else interested in
> writing can find their addresses at the bottom of the Radio
> Marti schedule. If they say there is no airborne 530
> frequency, you'll see me post that and I'll concede. If
> they say there is, I hope you will value the information,
> which is REALLY what is important here, more than your
> argument and that you will concede.

Since I am a licenced engineer (Ecuador) I really need something more substantial than a non-technical person saying something that can't work is working, especially the point of high-power RVC being on the air a stone's throw away (since salt water is essentially as conductive as metal at AM frequencies)

> After all, the original
> issue here is what's going on on 530? The more information
> brought to the table, the better for all.

I really want to know how an alleged SEPARATE Marti transmitter can operate co-channel wit RVC in RVC's primary coverage area. That mysitfies me. The airplane thing is just secondary, as I can find no evidence of being able to cover a distant area on AM from a plane that is not in direct overflight of an area.
>
 
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