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ESPN, ESPN2 and ESPNU airing in wide-screen format in SD feed

J

Jul

Guest
I don't understand why ESPN, ESPN2 and ESPNU are airing in wide-screen format, in the standard definition feed of the channels. They should keep those channels in full screen for the non-HD viewers, like myself and other folks.
 
Must be where you are because ESPN, ESPN2 and ESPN U here aren't in wide screen here. Your cable company might be using the ESPN HD feeds instead of the SD feed.
 
Julius May said:
I don't understand why ESPN, ESPN2 and ESPNU are airing in wide-screen format, in the standard definition feed of the channels. They should keep those channels in full screen for the non-HD viewers, like myself and other folks.

Get used to it. TV production is moving completely to 16:9 widescreen, and TV content producers aren't going to continue making their 16:9 productions "4:3 safe" forever...which means that viewers still using 4:3 SD displays will either see graphics and important video content cut off the sides of their screens, or they'll have to get used to letterboxing, as an increasing number of networks (including most Fox services and now CNN) are doing.
 
as the owner of a 13 inch Magnavox NTSC 4:3 portable color set.....I protest!
 
Scott Fybush said:
Julius May said:
I don't understand why ESPN, ESPN2 and ESPNU are airing in wide-screen format, in the standard definition feed of the channels. They should keep those channels in full screen for the non-HD viewers, like myself and other folks.

Get used to it. TV production is moving completely to 16:9 widescreen, and TV content producers aren't going to continue making their 16:9 productions "4:3 safe" forever...which means that viewers still using 4:3 SD displays will either see graphics and important video content cut off the sides of their screens, or they'll have to get used to letterboxing, as an increasing number of networks (including most Fox services and now CNN) are doing.

If you're watching football in 4:3, you're missing 20 yards of football. They're is an extra 10 yards on each side of the screen in 16:9. I actually like the letterboxed feeds in SD if I'm watching TV on one of my SD TVs. I've been watching TV in HD for about 7 years and if I'm in my kitchen watching TV on my SD TV, I don't like the 4:3. I just wish there was a way they could sync up the HD and SD feeds so that when you are watching sports, there is not the 2-4 second delay between SD and HD. Some stations the SD is ahead and some, the HD is ahead.
 
Another problem is Women's march Madness can't do it like Men's is this year on 4 Networks and don't want weekday version of Baseball Tonight in season.
 
This is going to be an ongoing trend so get used to it. 4x3 TV is obsolete and all TVs being sold are 16:9 nowadays. By converting SD channels to 16:9 it saves TV channels from having to produce two separate feeds, and checking to make sure nothing vital gets cut off when everything is cropped to 4:3. It will also prevent people from stretching 4:3 channels to fit 16:9 screens. Most TVs have the option to crop in both the vertical and horizontal so that when it gets a 4:3 SD feed that is downconverted 16:9 the aspect ratio can be preserved. I often see in public places where there are flat screen TVs attached to analog cable service and they are always stretching the picture making it look terrible. Of course if cable companies would open up Clear QAM for all analog channels we wouldn't be forced to view analog on new TVs without boxes.
 
spunker88 said:
This is going to be an ongoing trend so get used to it. 4x3 TV is obsolete and all TVs being sold are 16:9 nowadays. By converting SD channels to 16:9 it saves TV channels from having to produce two separate feeds, and checking to make sure nothing vital gets cut off when everything is cropped to 4:3. It will also prevent people from stretching 4:3 channels to fit 16:9 screens. Most TVs have the option to crop in both the vertical and horizontal so that when it gets a 4:3 SD feed that is downconverted 16:9 the aspect ratio can be preserved. I often see in public places where there are flat screen TVs attached to analog cable service and they are always stretching the picture making it look terrible. Of course if cable companies would open up Clear QAM for all analog channels we wouldn't be forced to view analog on new TVs without boxes.

Some cable systems have SD channels of TBS and a few other channels in QAM, but not the HD channels other than the local channels. Many DVD/VHS combo decks sold today don't even have turners built in anymore
 
spunker88 said:
This is going to be an ongoing trend so get used to it. 4x3 TV is obsolete and all TVs being sold are 16:9 nowadays.

Correct. Basically the content producers are saying "A majority of the country has HD. Standard-def viewers are now a minority and a rapidly shrinking minority at that, so we are no longer going to pander to them."
 
Why is still some people unable to get used to watching letterboxed? I'm TIRED of watching widescreen shows filmed at the 4:3 safe zone. It's a complete waste, specially hen they put the channel bug at the middle of the screen. If shows were filmed like they should, we could see wider scenes.
 
nomadcowatbk said:
Some cable systems have SD channels of TBS and a few other channels in QAM, but not the HD channels other than the local channels. Many DVD/VHS combo decks sold today don't even have turners built in anymore

Well many channels are in QAM. I get hundreds on Time Warner but only a few stations which are OTA affiliates are unlocked. On some TVs they will even map a PSIP to the QAM channel (usually the OTA or cable channel number) The rest are locked and will show a black screen. It kind of makes me mad since Im paying for cable, why do they have to force you to get a box to view HD. Almost all TVs now have QAM. It wont take up anymore spectrum space, and if they unlocked more channels in QAM they could phase out analog cable faster. People with older analog sets would have to buy a QAM converter box which I think exist (it would be similar to the DTV boxes). Hopefully this is what cable companies do when they finally decide to shut off analog.

If they force people to buy cable boxes than they better be prepared to lose customers. The one large advantage cable has always had over satellite is that you are allowed plug and view TV on unlimited TVs in your house without paying another cent more. Cable companies may try to make you think this cannot be done in a digital age, but with Clear QAM it can be.
 
spunker88 said:
Well many channels are in QAM. I get hundreds on Time Warner but only a few stations which are OTA affiliates are unlocked. On some TVs they will even map a PSIP to the QAM channel (usually the OTA or cable channel number) The rest are locked and will show a black screen. It kind of makes me mad since Im paying for cable, why do they have to force you to get a box to view HD.

Access control. If the QAM channels aren't locked, what's to stop me from paying the cable company $15 a month for the "lifeline" broadcast basic service and then watching those hundreds of channels on my digital TV for free? We're long past the point when the cable company could simply put a trap up at the pole to brute-force block part of the RF spectrum from getting into the house (and yes, I remember the days when that's exactly how the one-and-only premium channel on our system, HBO, was blocked from non-subscribers.)

Almost all TVs now have QAM. It wont take up anymore spectrum space, and if they unlocked more channels in QAM they could phase out analog cable faster. People with older analog sets would have to buy a QAM converter box which I think exist (it would be similar to the DTV boxes). Hopefully this is what cable companies do when they finally decide to shut off analog.

It's what they're already doing...it's just that TWC in our region has been much slower than other companies (especially Comcast) in phasing out analog cable. In markets where analog cable has already been mostly withdrawn, customers can get "DTAs" (digital tuning adapters) that are low-cost, low-feature QAM tuners with SD RF/baseband video outputs. Some cable companies have made them available at no cost, while others are charging a couple of bucks a month - still way less than the cost of a full-feature set-top box. (And of course, some "cable companies" have never had analog service at all, like Verizon's FiOS offering, requiring either a full-feature STB or a DTA at each outlet.)

The DTAs are at least addressable enough to know which channels a subscriber is authorized to receive.

If they force people to buy cable boxes than they better be prepared to lose customers. The one large advantage cable has always had over satellite is that you are allowed plug and view TV on unlimited TVs in your house without paying another cent more. Cable companies may try to make you think this cannot be done in a digital age, but with Clear QAM it can be.

Except that it can't...at least not with the kind of access control that the cable companies need to have to protect their revenues and prevent service theft.
 
How do they prevent people with the very basic cable package (first dozen channels or so) from getting access to the other analog cable channels? What would prevent them from simply moving the digital versions of these channels near their former analog positions.

I dont really know how they filter out the analog channels. On Time Warner Cable in Watertown area you basically get channels 2-14 on the basic package, this includes local TV affiliates, YNN, and former superstations. Channels 15 to around 70 are all analog cable channels if you subscribe to regular or digital cable. The channels that my QAM tuner pick up are from around 80 to 130 with many video feeds stuffed into one channel since digital is more efficient. Local affiliates that have unlocked QAM fall around 84-85. Yet people who only get basic cable can get these QAM channels just fine.

If the cable company can filter out these analog UHF channels but leave others, whats stopping them from filtering out digital channels that are placed on these same UHF channels. I guess I dont get how they can filter out some channels and leave others.
 
Julius May said:
I don't understand why ESPN, ESPN2 and ESPNU are airing in wide-screen format, in the standard definition feed of the channels. They should keep those channels in full screen for the non-HD viewers, like myself and other folks.
Must be Xfinity. The SD feeds of those channels on FiOS in Chester County, PA still are all 4:3, not letterboxed.
 
spunker88 said:
How do they prevent people with the very basic cable package (first dozen channels or so) from getting access to the other analog cable channels? What would prevent them from simply moving the digital versions of these channels near their former analog positions.

They use physical traps, little cylindrical filters (many of them made nearby in Syracuse at Microwave Filter Co.) that allow only certain RF frequencies to get through to the subscriber's drop. In the case of your TWC system, and mine, that basically amounts to a bandpass filter that lets through 2-6 (54-88 MHz), 7-13 (174-216 MHz) and a handful of frequencies in between. (Cable channels 14-22 are located just below channel 7, in the 120-174 MHz spectrum that's used for aviation, weather and two-way services in the world outside the cable drop.)

As you note, the filters stop around channel 70 or so, thus allowing QAM services on even higher RF channels to pass through.

It is indeed physically possible to put QAM multiplexes lower down on a system's bandwidth. On our system in Rochester, RF channel 5 (76-82 MHz) has, among other things, a couple of clear QAM services that carry the local public access channels.

If the cable company can filter out these analog UHF channels but leave others, whats stopping them from filtering out digital channels that are placed on these same UHF channels. I guess I dont get how they can filter out some channels and leave others.

I hope my explanation above helped to answer this question. They use physical traps, and physical traps have problems: they cost money to manufacture (especially more complex ones), they cost time and effort to install, they limit a system's flexibility (RF channel 14 still isn't used on our Time Warner system here because there are thousands upon thousands of 14-only traps on poles around town dating to the days when HBO analog lived on that channel and was trapped out of non-subscribers' homes), and they can easily be removed by would-be cable thieves. (I knew lots of people growing up who'd climbed the ladder behind the house to remove the 14 trap for free HBO, which was great until the cable guy showed up to do work on the lines.)

QAM digital gives a system huge flexibility to dynamically alter its spectrum use as needs change. As long as my cable box will map NBC to "channel 10," I don't ever need to know what "real" physical RF channel it's tuning to on the cable system. WHEC might be on QAM channel 100.9 today, but if TWC needs to shift it to 82.5 tomorrow, as long as my box knows to map it there, it doesn't matter to me. But if the cable company needed to roll trucks to remove or replace hundreds of thousands of physical traps to accommodate that change...well, they wouldn't. And that might mean there's not bandwidth available as a result to stick TruTV up in HD, or to increase my cable modem's downstream speed.

And it gets even more complex: many of those HD channels on Time Warner aren't even provided on fixed QAM frequencies. In order to provide the 100-some HD services it now offers, many less-viewed channels now come in via something called "SDV," switched digital video. If I want to watch Comedy Central HD, I punch "1166" into my box, and instead of tuning to a fixed QAM channel that translates to 1166, it sends a command to the cable headend saying I want to watch Comedy Central. The headend (or a device somewhere in my neighborhood between me and the headend) then dynamically assigns a QAM channel to Comedy Central and tells my box where to tune. When I watch the Daily Show tonight, it might be on 124.15...and tomorrow night, it might be on 123.8, and the night after that, it might be on 104.11. Again, as long as my box knows where to go, it's transparent to me, and I get dozens of channels in HD that I might not get otherwise.

(When too many people all want to watch different SDV channels at once, sometimes there aren't enough QAM channels available, which is why you occasionally see "Channel not available." They've done a pretty good job of avoiding that, though.)

But now imagine trying to make physical traps work with that system! How can you trap out the channels you're not supposed to get, when those channels could show up anywhere in the RF spectrum?

Now, in the case of fiber-to-the-home systems like FiOS, my understanding is that all the RF that moves down the cables within the home is generated right at the box where the fiber enters the home. In a system like that, it should (I think) be possible to unlock QAM for all the channels a particular subscriber is authorized to receive, allowing for the use of clear-QAM tuners built into TV sets and other devices. I don't think Verizon has it implemented that way, but sadly, I'm in Rochester and we're in Frontier territory, so I don't get the chance to find out firsthand.
 
I just noticed today that Time Warner Cable has the HD feeds of ESPN and ESPN2 on the SD feeds. This could just be a mistake on Time Warners end. How I noticed was on the tv that isn't hooked up to a digital box. I don't want to have to press the zoom button.
 
The reason why providers are switching the HD feeds downscaled might be replacing their MPEG2 equipment with MPEG4 because ESPN is dropping all their MPEG2 feeds to move on to MPEG4. Doesn't mean anything to the end user since they'll convert it some way, but it provides smaller compression for program providers. Thus, no more ESPN in boxy 4:3; Charter in my area has already switched every ESPN SD channel they get (including Deportes) to downscaled 16:9 except for Classic stuck in 4:3, which I swear is only being run until the last cable contract runs out because there is nothing there to watch anymore at all.
 
comcast of NE/Nw Philadelphia is airing ESPN and ESPN2 in full screen on SD, not 16:9, but the people on both channels look like coneheads. Comcast shouldn't have not changed the picture format. Its impossible to watch both channels.
 
Scott Fybush said:
spunker88 said:
How do they prevent people with the very basic cable package (first dozen channels or so) from getting access to the other analog cable channels? What would prevent them from simply moving the digital versions of these channels near their former analog positions.

They use physical traps, little cylindrical filters (many of them made nearby in Syracuse at Microwave Filter Co.) that allow only certain RF frequencies to get through to the subscriber's drop. In the case of your TWC system, and mine, that basically amounts to a bandpass filter that lets through 2-6 (54-88 MHz), 7-13 (174-216 MHz) and a handful of frequencies in between. (Cable channels 14-22 are located just below channel 7, in the 120-174 MHz spectrum that's used for aviation, weather and two-way services in the world outside the cable drop.)

As you note, the filters stop around channel 70 or so, thus allowing QAM services on even higher RF channels to pass through.


Back in the day I used to know a rogue electrician (who has since gone to that great Union Hall in the sky)
who for twenty five bucks would come to your house, remove the filter, hook it up to the arc welder on his
truck, fry the bejeezus out of that sucker and then put it back in for you. It would no longer filter anything
and if the cable company came around to check they'd think it just failed on its own.

Never used his services myself mind you :)
 
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