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Fall Phase I Diary Numbers Are Out

lalumia said:
What miserable numbers for K-ROCK!

I know! I don't listened to K-Rock, because it's garbage! I guess "Jack" is waiting at the door on 92.3 and will call it "92.3 Jack-FM Playing What We Want". That might be Allan's idea of what the station is going to create someday if K-Rock needs to die. "Fresh" does okay, and so does Chicago on 105.9, another "Fresh" station.

Look out, Howard Cogan is waiting on 92.3 to join the "Jack" bandwagon!

As I mentioned before, CBS-FM is in the top 5, but no "Jack" is not coming back to 101.1, "Jack" needs to be on 92.3 if K-Rock dies and if it continues not to do well, 92.3 will be "Jack-FM" and it should work for now!
 
K-Rock needs to be that Hard Active Rocker for NY. We need to hear some Pantera, Killswitch, Drowning pool, the red, Egypt Central, Another Animal, ect... I find myself tuning in but just getting bored real quick.
 
My thoughts on some of the responses in this thread.

- Who really did not see this coming with PPM and the urban stations. It is more likely we are finally getting accurate ratings with PPM. Despite people considering NY a rythmic city there is still a high percentage of whites which made it very unlikely these urban ethic formats were ever getting these numbers.

Looks like Aribitron is going to have the rig their system to favor these urban formats to fend off lawsuits. Sad.

- CBS-FM adjusted its format since the relaunch. If they did not we would not continue to be seeing these numbers.

- K-Rock. There has been some improvement but it just is not enough. Either they need to add more variety plus newer music or switch over to a JACK type rock type format.
 
mikerock said:
My thoughts on some of the responses in this thread.

- Who really did not see this coming with PPM and the urban stations. It is more likely we are finally getting accurate ratings with PPM. Despite people considering NY a rythmic city there is still a high percentage of whites which made it very unlikely these urban ethic formats were ever getting these numbers.

You are ingnoring the fact that the MRC was far, far from accrediting the NY survey and that was, in part, because the sample in 18-34 was abysmally small and that is where more Blacks and Hispanics are to be found due to average ages of the different measured groups.

This has nothing to do with lawsuits, and the idea of "fixing" the race is absurd as the MRC would see that instantly.

Saying we were getting accurate reports with PPM when the MRC and Arbitron itself do not agree is preposterous.
 
I'd rather see K-Rock go in the opposite direction and become a real Alternative station, but maybe that's just my personal preferences talking. If they want to stay an Alternative-leaning Active station, then they should have much more of a focus on new music, playing all of the most popular songs in both formats along with a well-picked sampling of lower-charting tracks that fit their sound. And they definitely need to stop playing recurrents 40 times a week.

Meanwhile, I'm glad to see CBS-FM is doing well. Sure, I could complain that they're emphasizing the 70s too much or that they're not playing enough 80s dance music, but nitpicks aside, it's still a fun station to listen to with great personalities and presentation, and you can always count on hearing one of your all-time favorites. And while Jack really wasn't such a bad station, taking CBS-FM away for it was a big mistake.
 
mjb1124 said:
Meanwhile, I'm glad to see CBS-FM is doing well. Sure, I could complain that they're emphasizing the 70s too much or that they're not playing enough 80s dance music, but nitpicks aside, it's still a fun station to listen to with great personalities and presentation, and you can always count on hearing one of your all-time favorites. And while Jack really wasn't such a bad station, taking CBS-FM away for it was a big mistake.

That's about the best way of summing the whole topic up that I have read. Nice post.
 
I heard as much 60s driving home this afternoon as I did when they first signed on...the 60s are alive and well on CBS FM!
 
David:

Sounds like what we have is a choice between:

(1) A valid sample and a notoriously unreliable instrument.
(2) An inadequate sample and a reliable instrument.

Arbitron's monopoly and their continued use of diaries is indefensible. Agencies don't trust Arbitron numbers and so they avoid buying radio. Arbitron gets their feet held to the fire and finally moves toward PPM but early numbers suggest accurate numbers might go against some segments heretofore over-counted. So they play the race card and the industry, as usual, caves in.
[/quote]

Incidentally, it says in David Hinckley's column in yesterday's Daily News that "Arbitron will continue to release PPM data side-by-side for the next six months with renewed 'diary' ratings" (or at least until the ethnic minority stations succeed in their efforts to suppress that information too).
 
DavidEduardo said:
This has nothing to do with lawsuits, and the idea of "fixing"

Saying we were getting accurate reports with PPM when the MRC and Arbitron itself do not agree is preposterous.

So I suppose the outrage we are seeing is not really happening and Aribitron did not actually back off PPM because of pressure from these minority groups. If these stations catered to white listeners it would not have been an issue and has not been since they have been getting the shaft all these years.

The outrage is preposterous since these stations have been getting a free boost by Arbitron with their inaccurate diary system.
 
1250WTAE said:
Congratulations to CBS-FM. What they have done, hasn't been accomplished since Scott Shannon's "Worst To First" with Z-100.

For a station to double its ratings, even 12+ just doesn't happen that much anymore.

Its also caused a movement towards the 80's with some oldies/classic hits stations across the country.

An A+, job well done!!

One Station Did just that here where I live at in savannah. WGCO Oldies 98.3 changed to Big 98 and Evolved to Classic Hits WGCO also had a 2 year stint as Jack FM before Returning to oldies then classic hits.
 
mikerock said:
So I suppose the outrage we are seeing is not really happening and Aribitron did not actually back off PPM because of pressure from these minority groups.

No, but while the noise from subscribers, including members of the NABOB, certainly contributed, all the issues had to do with a poor sample that was not proportional. In 18-34 overall, the "DDI" which is the percent of quota met, the number was around 60%... a huge shortfall. In addition, there are severe issues in proportionality within cells on a number of streatification variables.

Apparently, as Arbitron worked with the MRC for accreditation, the issues were to big to fix prior to a January release of "currency data" (the October report was labeled "test data" precisely for this reason). If Arbitron, with the counsel of the MRC, came to the conclusion that 9 more months are needed, then the sample was seriously flawed in a number of areas.

The MRC accreditation is vital for ad agencies and major ratings-driven advertisers to use the data with confidence.

If these stations catered to white listeners it would not have been an issue and has not been since they have been getting the shaft all these years.

The biggest protests and the "ultimatum" of the week before last came from Clear Channel, Cox and Cumulus... general market broadcasters who realized that the sample was not balanced, proportional and of adequate size.

The outrage is preposterous since these stations have been getting a free boost by Arbitron with their inaccurate diary system.

Nobody in the industry and who knows survey technique believes anyone had a "free boost."

Different methodologies favor certain formats... 30 years ago we saw Beautiful Music high in Arbitron, and AOR high in Birch, while each was lower in the other service. No ethnic issue, but a definite sample issue. The important thing is to have a truly proportional sample, since a panel based survey, never used in radio before, is based on the concept of a "perfect sample."
 
MarcR said:
Sounds like what we have is a choice between:

(1) A valid sample and a notoriously unreliable instrument.

The diary has deficiencies, since it measures cume, TSL and memory. Thus the rounding (usually upwards) into even blocks of time and the loss of short incidents of listening to P4 and below stations.

The first enhances or exaggerates TSL, as we know. The second is irrelevant, as light listening cumers are not reachable using reach and frequency goals that are economically realistic since it would talke 100 spots a week to reach most of them.

So the unreliability is basically limited to the rounding factor.

(2) An inadequate sample and a reliable instrument.

The PPM has other issues. It measures TSL, cume and the willingness of panelists to carry it every day, all day. Women show as lighter users of radio, and some of this is suspected to be related to the inability of women in some types of clothing to clip the PPM to theirself... causing loss of carriage, and thus, listening time.

The much smaller size of the panel vs. total quarterly diary count means that the panel must be perfectly sized and balanced at all times or individual cells will not be statistically reliable. The disaster in houston from April to July and August shows that recruiting and keeping a panel are harder than Arbitron envisioned and keeping panelists active is also a major issue.

So, while the meter, when being carried, measures more accurately precise tune in times, it has the defect of panel behaviour, which is being shown to be extremely difficult to maintain within tolerance.

Arbitron's monopoly and their continued use of diaries is indefensible.

There is no plan to implement the PPM outside the top 50 markets at this time, and the top markets will not be rolled out until the end of 2010. The diary will continue to be used, as the cost of the PPM in the smaller markets is at present not affordable given the billings levels and economy of the other 250 markets. The diary is approved in all but 1 US market by the MRC, and agencies will keep using diary data for the forseeable future in non-PPM markets.

Agencies don't trust Arbitron numbers and so they avoid buying radio.

On every call I have made to explain PPM to media departments at agencies with accounts like McDonalds and Ralphs, buyers are used to the diary data and uncertain about PPM and what it means. I never heard any criticism of the diary method, while the PPM was liked because the data would come out monthly within days of the end of each month, a boon to buyers doing seasonal buys and wishing to avoid seasonal bumps in radio listening.

Arbitron gets their feet held to the fire and finally moves toward PPM but early numbers suggest accurate numbers might go against some segments heretofore over-counted. So they play the race card and the industry, as usual, caves in.

No segment was overcounted. The percentage of weighting to acheive proporitonality in the diary is usually very small, and the exceptions transitory. The PPM in New York showed that the meted panel did not approach proportionality, and was off by as much as 40% in some areas. MRC accreditation was the real issue, and general market groups like Clear and Cox and Cumulus demanded what they had been sold. Between the MRC and the major subscribers, Arbitron realized they could not get the panel into compliance by the time of the December planned currency release...

Incidentally, it says in David Hinckley's column in yesterday's Daily News that "Arbitron will continue to release PPM data side-by-side for the next six months with renewed 'diary' ratings" (or at least until the ethnic minority stations succeed in their efforts to suppress that information too).

We will all be looking to see if the sample report shows anything close to 100% DDI's in all cells. Since more ethnic listening is in 18_34 due to population concentrations, the fact that 18-34 is Arbitron's poorest performing broad cell is the first thing we will all look at It is doable. In the last diary survey in Houston the total share for Spanish language stations was 19.5, and in the October PPM it is 19.7, so nobody was being "gifted" with free shares.
 
You certainly have an exhaustive knowledge of the issues regarding the two methodologies for measuring listenership David, but I think most of us are reacting on a more visceral level, hoping that the introduction of the PPM would act as a catalyst for Radio to launch more interesting and variegated (English-language) formats in an otherwise bland market like New York. I suppose now that my best bet for finding that sort of programming will be paying for a satellite radio subscription after the merger between Sirius and XM is approved. :(
 
MarcR said:
You certainly have an exhaustive knowledge of the issues regarding the two methodologies for measuring listenership David, but I think most of us are reacting on a more visceral level, hoping that the introduction of the PPM would act as a catalyst for Radio to launch more interesting and variegated (English-language) formats in an otherwise bland market like New York. I suppose now that my best bet for finding that sort of programming will be paying for a satellite radio subscription after the merger between Sirius and XM is approved. :(

To the contrary, the PPM, which gives programmers granularity at the quarter hour level, will cause many programmers to micro-manage every minute, and not take any chances on music and talent. I don't see this form of measurement as encouraging creativity or experimentation, as the risks of mistakes are reflected in instant measurement and all to frequent weekly ratings reports.

I have to say "baravo" to you. It is not every post that uses "visceral" and "variegated" in real, structured sentences. Refreshing.
 
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