False triggering of HD Radio?

[dxer2_2000]

Hi all

Even though we don't use HD Radio here in Australia, I bought one of those Sony XDR-F1HD receivers as I heard it was a hot FMDX tuner. And it sure is. It can match the Onkyo T-4970 (with the DYNAS function) in performance!! ;D

Whilst tuning on AM (with the supplied loop) I was listening on 1160 when the sound suddenly cut off for a few seconds & noticed the HD Radio indicator lit up. It also did this on 1180. These are 1st adjacents to our local Sydney station 2CH 1170. However, they do not broadcast IBOC/HD Radio. These adjacents were clear of any splatter too!

False triggering? (like with AM stereo) ???

Even though the tuner only tunes in 10khz steps, I can still listen to nearby 9khz stations. eg tuned to 1160 I can hear 1161 perfectly. 1180 of course is our 1179khz (3RPH Melbourne) w/ a faint hetrodyne from the USA's 1180 khz.

dxer2_2000 - Sydney NSW Australia

PS - love this tuner - nice display & RDS feature.

 

[Mike Walker]

I wonder if it's really "false", or if you're getting skip from the US, or another country with HD. YES IT DOES HAPPEN! I saw a video on Youtube the other day of a radio receiving analog FM, then switching to HD...only once it switched, it was a different station, hundreds of miles away!

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Whilst tuning on AM (with the supplied loop) I was listening on 1160 when the sound suddenly cut off for a few seconds & noticed the HD Radio indicator lit up. It also did this on 1180. These are 1st adjacents to our local Sydney station 2CH 1170. However, they do not broadcast IBOC/HD Radio. These adjacents were clear of any splatter too!

It is entirely possible you were experiencing DX from the US. I have noted that these sidebands are extremely robust, going as much as a thousand miles in the daytime. Who knows how far when part of the signal path is in darkness? Either way, there is a specific set of criteria that must happen before the HD indicator comes on. False triggering is very unlikely.

As for which 1170 could have triggered it - I don't know if KFAQ Tulsa runs HD, but it would be a prime candidate if it did - KFAQ's signal is a monster. I can get it 300 miles away daytime, which is kind of unusual for a station that high in the band.

KCBQ San Diego has a good daytime signal, so does LKOK San Jose.

WWVA Wheeling, WV advertises that it is HD, and it is 50 kW 24/7.

 

[hipporadio]

This is interesting, rbruce – considering the pro-HD mantra that “skywave” is passé and evil. 1170 WWVA is not available in HD past the far-eastern fifth of Ohio [certainly not on the east-side of Columbus - day or critical-hours]. nor is it dependable on nighttime skip into South Carolina [within the lobe].

So, here’s what we appear to have goin’-on: Bobby Stumble’s expensive, poorly-marketed, defective and destructive science-fair project CAN’T serve “the metro”, but it can trigger a discontinued Sony down-under... MERCY ME! :

 

[dxer2_2000]

Hi

Just as a quick reply. The sound also cut out briefly & the HD indicator also lit up on 1070 (1071khz for us here in Oz). Looks as if it was trying to get a HD lock but failed. The tuner simply resumed normal analog operation after those 3 accounts. No other freq triggered the HD indicator.

The AM section seems pretty sensitive too. Far better than most sony tuners on AM!

dxer2_2000

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Hi

Just as a quick reply. The sound also cut out briefly & the HD indicator also lit up on 1070 (1071khz for us here in Oz). Looks as if it was trying to get a HD lock but failed. The tuner simply resumed normal analog operation after those 3 accounts. No other freq triggered the HD indicator.

The AM section seems pretty sensitive too. Far better than most sony tuners on AM!

dxer2_2000

Sounds like KNX to me - that one is a no brainer as KNX is an absolute monster signal.

 

[Tom Wells]

That radio, at 10kz steps, has no problem picking up an AM on 1161, but
enough of 2CH's splat fell inside the passband and the radio though for a second it was going to be getting HD sidebands
to decode. Same thing on 1180.

I bet if this radio were switchable to 9 khz steps this would not happen.
Tell us a little about 2CH. Wideband audio or muffled?
If they have lots of sparkling clear highs, I would not be surprised.

I think there's zero chance of a transoceanic decode on MW, mostly due to the multiple uses of a frequency over the globe.
At one time it may have been:
I have read accounts of a ship sailing to Australia from the US west coast in the late 1920's with an experimental
Scott receiver, and WBBM Chicago, ( who knows what freq in those days) was listened to every night, and a dance music
program played for the passengers.

 

[ve3jf]

Hi

Just as a quick reply. The sound also cut out briefly & the HD indicator also lit up on 1070 (1071khz for us here in Oz). Looks as if it was trying to get a HD lock but failed. The tuner simply resumed normal analog operation after those 3 accounts. No other freq triggered the HD indicator.

The AM section seems pretty sensitive too. Far better than most sony tuners on AM!

dxer2_2000

Sounds like KNX to me - that one is a no brainer as KNX is an absolute monster signal.

When I was in Hawaii in February and did some tuning around on the AM band at night, KNX was clearly the best signal from the mainland.

Still, detecting their HD sidebands in Australia would be a stretch, especially with the stock antenna that would come with a tuner. And wouldn't the listener have noticed the analog audio if he was getting KNX?

 

[KB1OKL]

Hi

Just as a quick reply. The sound also cut out briefly & the HD indicator also lit up on 1070 (1071khz for us here in Oz). Looks as if it was trying to get a HD lock but failed. The tuner simply resumed normal analog operation after those 3 accounts. No other freq triggered the HD indicator.

The AM section seems pretty sensitive too. Far better than most sony tuners on AM!

dxer2_2000

Sounds like KNX to me - that one is a no brainer as KNX is an absolute monster signal.

When I was in Hawaii in February and did some tuning around on the AM band at night, KNX was clearly the best signal from the mainland.

Still, detecting their HD sidebands in Australia would be a stretch, especially with the stock antenna that would come with a tuner. And wouldn't the listener have noticed the analog audio if he was getting KNX?

Yes, getting ANY AM station in Australia from the US is just about impossible, never mind the buzz saw hash sidebands which do nothing except clog up the AM band and ruin adjacent channel reception, wait.... maybe it's moon bounce? ;D Someday perhaps IBOC will be considered a radio Superfund site?

 

[dxer2_2000]

Hi

I think Tom's explanation is more likely. The hetrodynes from the USA are very weak & certainly the stations are no where near audio level. I'd think a genuine HD Radio signal is unlikely. I could have a serious shot at HD if I was living in Cairns in far north QLD as the US stations can be heard up there on a wide band tuner. Stations like KNX & WOAI. In my home town in southern NSW, KMIK puts in a monstor signal, so if I ever get the chance, I'll have a crack at that one using a 300m longwire. Certainly the HD indicator should light up!

dxer2_2000

PS - Tom - 2CH sounds OK but boring mono these days. They dropped AM stereo yers ago.

 

[clouseau]

Hi

I think Tom's explanation is more likely. The hetrodynes from the USA are very weak & certainly the stations are no where near audio level. I'd think a genuine HD Radio signal is unlikely.

Most people with any sense would think so, too. However, unlike your explanation, the alternate does allow an opportunity for posting the ever popuilar...Bobby Stumble’s expensive, poorly-marketed, defective and destructive science-fair project CAN’T serve “the metro”... .

Can't let actual explanations or facts get in the way of the rant.

Clouseau

 

[KB1OKL]

Hi

I think Tom's explanation is more likely. The hetrodynes from the USA are very weak & certainly the stations are no where near audio level. I'd think a genuine HD Radio signal is unlikely.

Most people with any sense would think so, too. However, unlike your explanation, the alternate does allow an opportunity for posting the ever popuilar...Bobby Stumble’s expensive, poorly-marketed, defective and destructive science-fair project CAN’T serve “the metro”... .

Can't let actual explanations or facts get in the way of the rant.

Clouseau

I don't think Hippo's post precluded any of the other posts, he's right, HD has a hard time getting across most urban areas like Boston for ex. and it certainly ain't going anywhere near Australia. There is a guy on You Tube who got a couple of 350 miles HD locks but he was about 200-300 ft. above the average terrain. This was FM of course and the AM HD buzz saws do travel great distances even though the audio falls flat in 5 miles but to Australia? Don't think so.
I actually think we all said the same thing in different ways.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I don't think Hippo's post precluded any of the other posts, he's right, HD has a hard time getting across most urban areas like Boston for ex. and it certainly ain't going anywhere near Australia.

He did not claim HD reception. Only HD light flickering. I believe his report - because I have traveled to remote portions of the West, where there are almost no AM stations. I could clearly hear HD sideband pairs from Chicago and other stations over a thousand miles away - on an ordinary car radio. There are not that many stations running HD yet - and it is pretty obvious who the offenders are, especially when a pattern emerges like HD sidebands at the right places from multiple 50 kW stations. Bottom line - the sidebands are VERY robust, even if reception is not. And given a substantial portion of the receive path in darkness, I can see how the HD sidebands could show up in Australia. The algorithm to light the HD light is much simpler than that to acheive lock, but still complex enough I do not think this is a false trigger. There are numerous places on the local AM dial in my location where there are weak, but receivable stations on three consecutive frequencies. None of these produce even the slightest flicker of HD lock.

 

[KB1OKL]

I don't think Hippo's post precluded any of the other posts, he's right, HD has a hard time getting across most urban areas like Boston for ex. and it certainly ain't going anywhere near Australia.

He did not claim HD reception. Only HD light flickering. I believe his report - because I have traveled to remote portions of the West, where there are almost no AM stations. I could clearly hear HD sideband pairs from Chicago and other stations over a thousand miles away - on an ordinary car radio. There are not that many stations running HD yet - and it is pretty obvious who the offenders are, especially when a pattern emerges like HD sidebands at the right places from multiple 50 kW stations. Bottom line - the sidebands are VERY robust, even if reception is not. And given a substantial portion of the receive path in darkness, I can see how the HD sidebands could show up in Australia. The algorithm to light the HD light is much simpler than that to acheive lock, but still complex enough I do not think this is a false trigger. There are numerous places on the local AM dial in my location where there are weak, but receivable stations on three consecutive frequencies. None of these produce even the slightest flicker of HD lock.

Oh i Know HD sidebands can easily go 1000 miles at night, they have practically ruined my DXing, I get them every night here, but to Australia? Now that's a might bit farther. I suppose it's possible

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Oh i Know HD sidebands can easily go 1000 miles at night, they have practically ruined my DXing, I get them every night here, but to Australia? Now that's a might bit farther. I suppose it's possible

It is even more remarkable than that. I was hearing them in the daytime. Absolutely no trace of the analog signal, but sideband pairs clearly audible. It is unmistakable when they form a pair - sideband / blank frequency / sideband. Especially when the blank frequency is a well known 50 kW blowtorch. There just aren't that many candidate stations to produce those pairs. With no decode I can never prove it. I'm probably going out West again next summer. I'll do one of those Youtube videos of my car radio picking up sideband pairs 1000 miles away in the middle of nowhere - in the middle of the day.

 

[KB1OKL]

Oh i Know HD sidebands can easily go 1000 miles at night, they have practically ruined my DXing, I get them every night here, but to Australia? Now that's a might bit farther. I suppose it's possible

It is even more remarkable than that. I was hearing them in the daytime. Absolutely no trace of the analog signal, but sideband pairs clearly audible. It is unmistakable when they form a pair - sideband / blank frequency / sideband. Especially when the blank frequency is a well known 50 kW blowtorch. There just aren't that many candidate stations to produce those pairs. With no decode I can never prove it. I'm probably going out West again next summer. I'll do one of those Youtube videos of my car radio picking up sideband pairs 1000 miles away in the middle of nowhere - in the middle of the day.

Haha! You can headline it: HD radio received at a distance of 1000 miles! and show your radio playing the hash for about 30 seconds.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Haha! You can headline it: HD radio received at a distance of 1000 miles! and show your radio playing the hash for about 30 seconds.

A actually got pretty excited - the reception location is this rest area between Clayton NM and Raton NM, Not much on AM at all except for the hash, really reception from Amarillo, Raton, and Denver. Of course the hash from Denver was really strong.

I did it again in small towns along I-40. I was in Western Arizona before the daytime hash from Chicago stations was finally inaudible. Remarkable stuff - and I was excited because there is a possibility that a full power fully digital AM could be decoded at that distance - perhaps stations in the middle of the country could go coast to coast in the daytime!

I don't think there is any prospect of it in the interim - but extrapolate 50 years from now, if the IBOC advocates are right and the band dies, there could be a regenesis of it as a purely digital band with incredible coverage. But more likely in my opinion is broadband internet, or perhaps the present AM band becomes yet another internation analog service like shortwave. Just a few high power broadcasters doing religion or talk to expatriots of the country.

 

[KB1OKL]

Haha! You can headline it: HD radio received at a distance of 1000 miles! and show your radio playing the hash for about 30 seconds.

A actually got pretty excited - the reception location is this rest area between Clayton NM and Raton NM, Not much on AM at all except for the hash, really reception from Amarillo, Raton, and Denver. Of course the hash from Denver was really strong.

I did it again in small towns along I-40. I was in Western Arizona before the daytime hash from Chicago stations was finally inaudible. Remarkable stuff - and I was excited because there is a possibility that a full power fully digital AM could be decoded at that distance - perhaps stations in the middle of the country could go coast to coast in the daytime!

I don't think there is any prospect of it in the interim - but extrapolate 50 years from now, if the IBOC advocates are right and the band dies, there could be a regenesis of it as a purely digital band with incredible coverage. But more likely in my opinion is broadband internet, or perhaps the present AM band becomes yet another internation analog service like shortwave. Just a few high power broadcasters doing religion or talk to expatriots of the country.

I liked my idea better ;D

 

[stormy01]

perhaps stations in the middle of the country could go coast to coast in the daytime!

That would be nice, however, with the number of stations on the air, the FCC is unlikely
to allow a larger footprint in digital than in analog (think: market service area)...the current
50kW AM stations will probably be allowed no more than 5kW in full digital (similar to HDTV,
where the maximum power is 1MW on UHF in Digital rather than the current 5MW analog
maximum) on what will then need to be called the Medium Wave band as "AM" will be an
incorrect term since the modulation system will be almost entirely digital save for a small
analog carrier...Also, because the digital signal would be occupying what was once analog
bandwidth, the signal will be much more robust and therefore 5kW will most likely be more
than enough to cover a major market's service area...

 

[rbrucecarter5]

That would be nice, however, with the number of stations on the air, the FCC is unlikely
to allow a larger footprint in digital than in analog (think: market service area)...the current
50kW AM stations will probably be allowed no more than 5kW

If the current sidebands on AM are the same as FM - 1/100 the power - then 5kW would be a tremendous power increase for AM! What astonishes me is how 50kW / 100 = 500 W, yet those sidebands go 1000 miles in the daytime! Even in a noisy area like Dallas, WOAI sidebands are much louder than WOAI analog - at only 500W! Put 5 kW on those sidebands and local 1190 goes bye-bye during the daytime. WOAI full digital, even at only 5 kW, will be audible coast to coast. All other 1200's - jammed.