Familiarity Breeds...

[JustaLissner]

They say "familiarity breeds contempt." And that does seem to be the case here on Radio-Info. But not so much in Seattle radio. The posters here seem quick to tear down the tried-and-true. Ichabod. Robin & Maynard. Bob Rivers. T-Man. Kent & Allen. Fisher/West. And so many others. And not just individuals/shows, but "classic" stations as well. KMPS. KZOK. KJR. (OK, not KJR, who still hasn't found their way back to the "glory days.")

Reading back, there is post after post speculating about the demise of these Seattle legends. Radio insiders seem to think it is best for there to be constant change and for things to be always updated.

But look at the list. These are also the stations and shows that pull the biggest numbers. Lesson? Radio listeners in Seattle keep coming back to what is familiar. They don't always want something new. New stuff creates a quick BUT NOT LASTING flurry of listening. Curiousity. But Seattle listeners go back to what they know and love. And those who have recognized this and have doggedly stayed behind what has worked for a long time are the ones who see the most success. Will MOViN' be the next big thing in Seattle? Maybe they will, but not without personality. And give 'em time... in Seattle it takes a while. We certainly need "new" stations and new shows too. There is room for that. But for the biggest success in Seattle, keep the classic stuff around. Frankly, the only way I think KMPS and KZOK are ever going to be knocked off the top is if the OLD KJR, complete with Pat O'day and Charlie Brown and with the OLD sound could be put back in place. I was too young to remember it, but I truly believe it could be done again.

One last thought. LONG LIVE ROBIN AND MAYNARD.

"Robin?" "Manure?" "Good Day!"

 

[TeeTaw]

Thank you for one of the best posts on this board in months!

 

[Itchisakimoto]

I am with Tee Taw on this one....


I agree with almost everything that was said there... My only comment would be that I am not so much for getting rid of "old" or "experienced" talent just for the sake of change, but I would hope that said talent would acknowledge that their audience is an ever evolving entity which will always require a certain amount change if it is to continue to grow and expand.

Many of these shows after a number of years fall into a rut where it becomes easier and comfortable to re-hash old bits and go through the motions of filling our their air shift, rather than creating new bits and keeping things fresh for the audience.

Shows like Robin & Maynard are great, they are capable of doing brilliant radio and some hillarious comedy, but in my opinion (as a long time listener) they have fallen into the trap of doing what is easy and comfortable and relying on their past instead of shooting for something fresh, new, and less comfortable.

Maybe I am a freak, but those little asians put a channel selector on my radio for a reason, and if all I am going to get is a rehash of something I have already heard 10 times, then I will utilize that damn selector and find something new!

 

[radiobootie]

What are you all on crack? Those radio days are over. You put the old KJR on the air complete with those old jocks and you got zero ratings. Anyone heard Pat O'Day for the Schick commercials? That may have flown back in the day, but not today. He's sounds awful. KMPS and KZOK do well because they are well programmed stations. You think the jocks are what makes KZOK? They sound to me like they're under a "gag order". They talk very little on that stations because they're not allowed to. The only personality on those stations is on in the mornings, where it belongs today. Sad as it may be, it's time to face facts, the old glory days of radio are a thing of the past. Today's audience does not go for that old boss jock delivery. It just doesn't work any more. The audience is too savvy for that crap. Stations that do well today, do well because they are consistent with their product and well programmed. It's the age we live in, better to not live in the past. I have a real respect and appreciation for the old glory days, it's what attracted me to the business initially. It's in the past though.
Familiarity is important. Knowing you're going to get the same thing every time you tune in is very important. It's what seperates the real deal from the flukes.

 

[airwaver]

...Yes, but this all only last SO long....

 

[JustaLissner]

What are you all on crack? Those radio days are over. Familiarity is important. Knowing you're going to get the same thing every time you tune in is very important. It's what seperates the real deal from the flukes.

Thanks for all of your thoughts on this. Bootie- I think you missed my point. First you asked if I was on crack & then your summary at the end of your post came back and agreed with what I was saying. The point I was making is exactly as you stated- in Seattle radio Familiarity is the most important thing. Whether it be personalities or the overall sound of a station. The stations that keep flipping format annually, in my opinion, will continue to show SHORT TERM gains & then will fall off again. The stations/personalities here that continually pop to the top are the ones that have sounded (virtually) the same for years.

I also don't disagree with other posters who expressed a distaste for shows that begin to feel like they are on autopilot & repeat bits. I get tired of it too, BUT it works in this market. Kent & Allen have been doing the same exact show since the 80's. <YAWN> And I don't listen to it. But lots of people DO listen to it & they are around for the long haul. And when they finally do retire I expect their last show will still include Horrorscopes. And all the other schtick. And when Robin & Maynard resurface we will again hear about Roy in his corndog suit when Fair time comes. And it will be a perfect complement to all of the other FRESH stuff they add too.

 

[AQH]

What are you all on crack? Those radio days are over. You put the old KJR on the air complete with those old jocks and you got zero ratings. Anyone heard Pat O'Day for the Schick commercials? That may have flown back in the day, but not today. He's sounds awful. KMPS and KZOK do well because they are well programmed stations. You think the jocks are what makes KZOK? They sound to me like they're under a "gag order". They talk very little on that stations because they're not allowed to. The only personality on those stations is on in the mornings, where it belongs today. Sad as it may be, it's time to face facts, the old glory days of radio are a thing of the past. Today's audience does not go for that old boss jock delivery. It just doesn't work any more. The audience is too savvy for that crap. Stations that do well today, do well because they are consistent with their product and well programmed. It's the age we live in, better to not live in the past. I have a real respect and appreciation for the old glory days, it's what attracted me to the business initially. It's in the past though.
Familiarity is important. Knowing you're going to get the same thing every time you tune in is very important. It's what seperates the real deal from the flukes.

You're not on the same point at JustaLissner.

His/her point (and a very good one) was that the familiar, established personalities are winning in Seattle. The examples cited (Ichabod, Kent & Alan) couldn't be further away from the "boss jock" shtick. The last time "boss jock" was tried in Seattle, K-Hit circa 1988, went down in a heap of flames.

 

[mammaknowsbest]

I think you all miss the point. Familiarity is a good thing and if anyone thinks Ichabod, Kent and Alan or Bob Rivers are doing the same show they did 20 years ago, you are way off. I was around (though in high school) back then and the shows are much different. Ichabod was almost giddy on the air, laughing and playing guitar from time to time. He tells stories now and interviews guests. Kent and Alan had a cast of Zany characters and bits. The only remnants of those days are Battle of the Sexes (which I still like for some reason) and Horrorscopes. Bob Rivers played 8 songs an hour and had a bunch of characters and bits. Now he talks politics, sports and plays no music. These shows have changed and adjusted, but do it slowly so they don't piss off their long time listeners and try to stay up with the times. Characters and bits died with Robin, John and Pat Cashman. Ichabod, K@A and Rivers realized that and toned them back.

That's the positive.

The point I think people are making is these guys aren't that good anymore. They came from a time of Zoo radio, bits and characters.The adjustments they have made are not cutting edge, don't appeal to anyone under 30 and make them sound old. Their stations sound old with them. Mitch Elliott, Jackie and Bender are just Spokane versions of Ichabod or Kent and Alan. T-Man is a bad version of Stern. We need new, cutting edge. Fitz is trying, but slips into Ichabod bits. MOVIN is a music example of what is to come, and it takes time to find a morning talent that is just as cutting edge. That time will come.

 

[djdan]

I actually agree with much of what Mamma just said, but felt compelled to add one thing. Ichabod, Kent and Alan and Rivers know what their audience wants. They are not going after listeners under 30 and it would make no sense for them to do that. These shows are growing up with their audience, making changes like you suggest and aging gracefully.

There is room for a "new" morning show in Seattle that appeals to 18-34. Maybe that will be the new show on MOVIN. When it comes to 25-54, specifically 30-54, it will be hard to unseat these familiar shows because they keep just enough of the nostalgia of their shows 20 years ago, mixed with some new approaches that are mild and keep their audiences happy. Trying to tackle these shows in their core 30-54 demo has proven impossible for a long list of wannabes over the past decade. Jackie and Bender and Fitz are the latest. The smarter move is to go young 12-34 and grow up with your audience. Ichabod had a young audience in his KJR morning days, Kent and Alan in their Z-101.5 days and Rivers in his KISW ROCK days. Time for someone else to grow an audience with them. Thought provoking topic.

 

[Itchisakimoto]

That makes a lot of sense to me but I am in that 30-54 demo and I have to say that many of the shows are missing your point and relying way to much on their nostalgic past rather than evolving with their audience. I am with you that a little of a good thing is great, but some of these shows refuse to see it that way and continue to live in the past and that is where I get bored and they lose me.

I actually agree with much of what Mamma just said, but felt compelled to add one thing. Ichabod, Kent and Alan and Rivers know what their audience wants. They are not going after listeners under 30 and it would make no sense for them to do that. These shows are growing up with their audience, making changes like you suggest and aging gracefully.

There is room for a "new" morning show in Seattle that appeals to 18-34. Maybe that will be the new show on MOVIN. When it comes to 25-54, specifically 30-54, it will be hard to unseat these familiar shows because they keep just enough of the nostalgia of their shows 20 years ago, mixed with some new approaches that are mild and keep their audiences happy. Trying to tackle these shows in their core 30-54 demo has proven impossible for a long list of wannabes over the past decade. Jackie and Bender and Fitz are the latest. The smarter move is to go young 12-34 and grow up with your audience. Ichabod had a young audience in his KJR morning days, Kent and Alan in their Z-101.5 days and Rivers in his KISW ROCK days. Time for someone else to grow an audience with them. Thought provoking topic.

 

[talkerdjdude]

I'm not Fitz. Thought I'd get that out there first because it seems anyone who has a positive comment about the guy gets accused of being him.

I heard him do a few things this week that I thought were great. An original song, that played off a Carrie Underwood hit. Stuff that his kind of listener would be entertained by. Ichabod has turned into a lame talk show host wannabe, talking about Korea, Vietnam, and the Civil War at times this week. Really strange since the guy never seems to have a grasp of what he's talking about, nor do the people around him. He's forgotten how to be entertaining. He's simply a guy who interviews anyone who was in USA Today, bonus if that person is over 60. Which I think gives Fitz an opportunity.

Same story for T-man who is the same old thing everyday, at least Jackie and Bender are different, and try new things, such as including the people around them more. I'm also hoping for a Movin morning show that is live, local and in touch.

Familiarity is important in Seattle because some of the young people who've tried to make it in the mornings never last. Management gets jumpy and changes. Give Fitz and J and B a chance and in 10 years if radio still exists we'll be talking about "old J and B" the way we talk about old R and M. And in 10 years, K and A will probably still be there!

 

[radiobootie]

Sorry Justalissner, I wasn't asking you if you were on crack. I was really referring to the two posts following your original one. I agree with your point on familiarity 100%. That's what it's all about in this biz.

 

[AQH]

Valid points in general, Talker. But to call someone who has been dominant in Seattle for so long as 'lame' doesn't sound right.

Look at the Country audience as a whole. Most of them are flag-waving, yellow-ribbon bearing people. Remember the Dixie Chicks? With Lil' Kim doing his thing in Pyongyang, it seems rather valid to talk about those things. Especially to the mature audience that Ichabod has. In that same respect, Ichabod's following is so strong, he could potentially talk about diaper rashes and make it win.

Across the street, I don't get what the appeal is to a county audience of a song parody of an artist in a different format. I'm not saying the country audience doesn't know who's who in Hot AC, but a song parody of Carrie Underwood? She's a B level artist and doesn't have anything on the charts right now.

Credit is due in that doing a song parody versus talking current events IS different, and it clearly shows a differences in approach.

T-man isn't my cup of tea, but his ratings are hard to argue with. Jackie and Bender have been struggling for a long time. They have a LOT of luggage with them in this market, and I don't think they fit Kiss anymore. They would, however, be a suitable replacement if Kent & Alan decide to call it quits.

 

[talkerdjdude]

AQH

I'm not saying Ichabod is "lame" overall. I think when he approaches current events and talks about wars and history he sounds like a lame talk show host. His strength in the past has been on being exceedingly likeable and being funny. I don't think constant interviews and discussions that don't have any audible interest/support from those around him suit his strengths.

Carrie Underwood is a country artist. Her song Fitz did a parody of is on the country charts, and is a song his listeners would know.

 

[IveGotAFaceForRadio]

T-man isn't my cup of tea, but his ratings are hard to argue with. Jackie and Bender have been struggling for a long time. They have a LOT of luggage with them in this market, and I don't think they fit Kiss anymore. They would, however, be a suitable replacement if Kent & Alan decide to call it quits.
[/quote]

My thoughts exactly. I don't like T-man either, but he is different than everyone else in the market. J+B need to be sent to AC, I think they would be great in that format, probably better than K&A. If Marcus D ever hopes to compete with KUBE he's going to have to go with a younger, fresher show. D-list celebrities and cheesy radio games don't make for good radio, at least not in Seattle.

 

[boaz]

"Across the street, I don't get what the appeal is to a county audience of a song parody of an artist in a different format. I'm not saying the country audience doesn't know who's who in Hot AC, but a song parody of Carrie Underwood? She's a B level artist and doesn't have anything on the charts right now."


Uh......Please check the charts....and Carrie gets more plays in the Country format than the Hot AC. Hot AC laps up that left overs from other formats after they have been burned / tested by CHR, Country, AAA, what ever.

Carrie is a country artist who crosses pop ala Shania, Faith, and to some extent the Chicks who were getting some spins this year from KISS 106. Where do the singles start - what format - Country - none of them get worked to CHR first or that defunkt Hot AC format. CMT debutes her videos befor that doofus on TRL on the MTV -