FCC APPROVES HD RADIO/IBOC FOR NIGHTTIME USE ON AM STATIONS

[TheRover]

I see it as a homeland security issue. If there's a major disaster in your community, your power grid and inter-tubes are down, and you need to know what happened and what's happening, where are you going to turn? My Hallicrafter's has the CD logo on the dial. There used to be 'Conelrad', a system telling people where to turn for emergency information. Losing the night skywave to iboc hash eliminates the possibility of getting information out to a wide area in case of disaster.
g

Just a guess..... but after HDTV goes into mandatory effect next year in Sept. (?), then those old analog frequencies can be used for public emergency information, broadcast to those that have TV radios!!!! Right??

 

[rbrucecarter5]

The reality is that other than radio geeks, no one is DXing the AM dial. KLBJ is nothing but syndicated talk shows outside AM and PM drive.

See- a personal insult. I've just been called a "geek". Under traditional rules of debate - YOU LOSE!

As for nobody DX'ing the AM dial - check the sales figures for GE Superradio 3, CCrane, and communications receivers that include the AM band. There is enough business to keep quite a few companies doing a brisk business. You know, I bet some of the buyers might even be large, muscular men. Want to call them "geeks", too?!

KLIF is no better than KLBJ in the format department. Talk is talk. Boring - I could care less about somebody else's opinions. Talk radio doesn't need wide bandwidth or stereo - a lot of talk FM stations even turn off their stereo to get better coverage. Why is KLIF broadcasting HD? Its not like the mike people separately. Its all for musical beds and commercials. A sad, sorry excuse for taking up 50 kHz of public spectrum instead of the 10 kHz which is more than they need for talk.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

WRDA "Red @ 104.1" St Louis was sold to Radio One about 6 months ago and turned into hip hop WHHL "Hot 104"...

That is a shame. Maybe KAAM will sound better streaming than the pathetically phase shifted and distorted HD that I heard the other day. I'd rather listen to their analog signal than that piece of ___ HD audio I heard. It was AWFUL!

 

[radiopilot]

IBOC sucks...

But really when the NAB-FCC dumptruck stops by your neighborhood... how many of you are going to dump your Sansui, Onkyo, Pioneers, Sonys, Luxman, Denons, etc. into that dumptruck so that the HD mongrels force you have to buy one of these HD digital receiivers with this type of quality:

http://users.tns.net/~bb/hdt-1.htm

Notice how they'll make you pay upwards of $150-300 or more depending on brand for this fine quality piece of crap... compare that to that beautiful piece of AM/FM analog tuner you have on your stereo shelf.

Radiopilot

 

[Robert Bass]

But really when the NAB-FCC dumptruck stops by your neighborhood... how many of you are going to dump your Sansui, Onkyo, Pioneers, Sonys, Luxman, Denons, etc. into that dumptruck so that the HD mongrels force you have to buy one of these HD digital receiivers with this type of quality:

That truck ain't coming. Unlike HDTV, HD Radio is not mandatory.

R

 

[SmokeRing]

Otherwise, there will not be people running out in the streets protesting KLIF using IBOC may diminish KLBJ 590 Austin from reaching here, because no one cares. KLBJ is nothing but syndicated talk shows outside AM and PM drive. And KLBJ probably doesn't care either since radio stations don't derive any income from out-of-market listening.

KLBJ's Jeff Ward (PM Drive) has one of the smartest and most entertaining local talk shows in the state. I bet there are rural listeners northward to Waco, maybe even Hillsboro, who like to tune him in. I wouldn't be surprised if KLIF is now jamming them.

I understand that stations don't sell based on rural listenership, but that's why, in theory, we have an FCC. The FCC is supposed to protect the public interest. And I think there's a reasonable public interest in protecting DXing.

Are people going to take to the streets? Of course not. But that's an extreme argument, isn't it? Does an issue have to be so galvanizing that it takes rioting before we listen to reason?

But, hey. This is one issue. I'll drink a beer with you whether we agree on this ONE issue or not. The disagreements on this board get too vicious too fast.

 

[txchipk]

The reality is that other than radio geeks, no one is DXing the AM dial. KLBJ is nothing but syndicated talk shows outside AM and PM drive.

See- a personal insult. I've just been called a "geek". Under traditional rules of debate - YOU LOSE!

I don't know how it would be a personal insult since (a) it isn't an insult and (b) I didn't reply to your post. I would think most people here, including me, would be radio geeks. No different than someone I heard call themselves a "sports nerd" the other day. It just means someone who enjoys and follows radio (or sports in the second example) far beyond the norm. I ran a little website for several years that tracked radio and TV stuff that other radio geeks beside myself enjoyed. I guess me and most of them have a sense of humor...

As for nobody DX'ing the AM dial - check the sales figures for GE Superradio 3, CCrane, and communications receivers that include the AM band. There is enough business to keep quite a few companies doing a brisk business. You know, I bet some of the buyers might even be large, muscular men. Want to call them "geeks", too?!

Sorry, I don't think there are masses of folks DXing the AM dial. There are a couple of DXing hobbyist groups. Membership in them is not in the thousands even...probably what few there are are dying off as there certainly isn't a new pool of young kids and teenagers getting interested in the hobby.

That was the point I was making...that IBOC is "the death of skywave" isn't true...for 99.9% of the population in this country, listening to out of town AM stations after dark has become something that is no longer interesting to do. So, skywave has been essentially dead for several years now. Again, I think it boils down to technology changes obsoleting the need for some of it and the lack of anything interesting to DX. If there weren't the Internet, if I moved to South Dakota and wanted to hear the Stars game, I would tune in WBAP. However, if I moved to South Dakota and since there is the Internet, I can hear the same game streamed online plus bring up websites to bring real-time stats as the game goes along. I could also listen to the broadcast of the team they were playing online if I wanted to get the feel of the opposition broadcast. If I wanted to scan the dial to listen to something else, I wouldn't find anything else, because virtually every other AM station is running a syndicated talk show that can be heard on 5 other AM stations I would be able to get. 20 years ago, not everything was talk or religious shows. There were sports broadcasts of games you couldn't get locally, a few stations still playing music, etc. Today, most sports broadcasts have moved to the local sports station in the market (which often isn't one of the big AM signals you can catch from afar ... and even then, you can hear the game on the Internet or via XM or Sirius). Outside classic country on WSM or KWKH, I can't think of many music outlet you can tune into (and both stream online anyway) other than Mexican or Cuban signals.

I imagine all this gets worse in North America in coming years. The CRTC is slowly allowing AM-to-FM migrations and there are now a couple of Canadian providences with a handful of AM signals. So, AM is on a path to be phased out up there. Here, we're just putting on more and more programming no one wants to hear. Most AM stations in most markets don't register enough users to show up in the ratings (count the number of AM signals in this market and count how many register in the D/FW book). Now, we are starting to see broadcasters move remaining popular AM programming to FM...KSL 1160 Salt Lake City now has added a full-time simulcast via KSL-FM 102.7, WTOP 1500 Washington DC moved to WTOP-FM 103.5, WWL 870 has added WWL-FM 105.3, KTAR 620 Phoenix moved to KTAR-FM 92.3, WJOX 690 Birmingham moved to WJOX-FM 100.5, CC has traditional news/talk FMs (i.e. non-Free FM guy talk) in Minneapolis and Pittsburgh, etc. Where the stations have moved and are not simulcasts (KSL-FM/AM, WWL-FM/AM), the AM programming that has replaced it has been weaker (i.e. nationally syndicated sports programming, etc.). It's not like KSL, WWL, WJOX, and KTAR have weak facilities that made them hard to hear...

 

[Mediafrog+]

So, skywave has been essentially dead for several years now.

The real death of nighttime AM DX began in the mid-80's when the remaining clears were broken up, and when daytimers were authorized night operation. That's when the co-channel interference issues started going through the roof. As someone who extensively DX'ed the AM band in the 60's, and marveled over the distant stations I could clearly hear, it is rather sad to tune around now and hear just a jumble or roar on virtually every frequency.

Again, I think it boils down to technology changes obsoleting the need for some of it and the lack of anything interesting to DX.

It used to be that virtually every station was unique, and it was fun to hear how things were done in different parts of the country. Sort of like taking a trip without leaving home, which was much of the appeal. But you are right, there is nothing interesting in trying to pick out the same talk shows from a multitude of clogged frequencies.

 

[TheRover]

It used to be that virtually every station was unique, and it was fun to hear how things were done in different parts of the country. Sort of like taking a trip without leaving home, which was much of the appeal. But you are right, there is nothing interesting in trying to pick out the same talk shows from a multitude of clogged frequencies.

Big Brother is coming....... soon, the American radio landscape will, in effect be nothing more than a mirror of "BBC 1,2,3,4,etc.... The "sameness", but in "different" genres --- All Across America . . . .

It certainly does benefit the Corporate and Govt. [wait... that's the same thing] interests....

Gekko said: "Greed is Good"

Corporate America says: "Sameness is Good"

Are You Listening ? ? ? ?

 

[KPLEXCOMPLEX]

What Independence? Local identity ? A PD making a playlist and not a focal group or from a corporate hq? A station that is concerned about what they air beyond time and temp for the local community? A station that airs both sides of an issue or leading candidates without having a host blast one and support the other for office given air time fairly and equally? Surely you jest?

 

[rbrucecarter5]

If there weren't the Internet, if I moved to South Dakota and wanted to hear the Stars game, I would tune in WBAP.

Good luck with that Internet in a car, where most AM listening is done.

I imagine the percentage of people DX'ing AM nighttime exceeds the number of people who have actually bought a HD radio, and far exceeds the number of people who can actually receive a digital signal on it. So if we are talking about numbers of people served by one vs. the other, the DX'ers win hands down. Since HD radio sales are still dismal four years after the first HD stations signed on, consumers have spoken. Its a failure. So why add to people's misery by legal jamming of the band? On the subject of jamming - if nighttime skywave is so irrelevant, how come broadcasters (who insist nighttime listening is not important) are so anxious to add nighttime IBOC. Could it possibly be that they want to jam out of town signals so locals are forced to listen to their station? Why is jamming so important if nobody DX's?

 

[Robert Bass]

Good luck with that Internet in a car, where most AM listening is done.

I imagine the percentage of people DX'ing AM nighttime exceeds the number of people who have actually bought a HD radio, and far exceeds the number of people who can actually receive a digital signal on it. So if we are talking about numbers of people served by one vs. the other, the DX'ers win hands down. Since HD radio sales are still dismal four years after the first HD stations signed on, consumers have spoken. Its a failure. So why add to people's misery by legal jamming of the band? On the subject of jamming - if nighttime skywave is so irrelevant, how come broadcasters (who insist nighttime listening is not important) are so anxious to add nighttime IBOC. Could it possibly be that they want to jam out of town signals so locals are forced to listen to their station? Why is jamming so important if nobody DX's?

For starters, wireless Internet will bring the ability to hear audio in the car.

Secondly, HD’s failure is actually not because of consumers. It is due to poor marketing and execution of the system, combined with lack of availability and affordable HD radios.

Many consumers don’t even know about HD, so how do you conclude they have spoken?

R

 

[davideduardo]

Good luck with that Internet in a car, where most AM listening is done.

Only around a third of AM listening is in the car. In LA, it is about 37%, while in markets with shorter commutes, it is around 31 to 32 percent.

 

[davideduardo]

I imagine the percentage of people DX'ing AM nighttime exceeds the number of people who have actually bought a HD radio, and far exceeds the number of people who can actually receive a digital signal on it. So if we are talking about numbers of people served by one vs. the other, the DX'ers win hands down. Since HD radio sales are still dismal four years after the first HD stations signed on, consumers have spoken. Its a failure. So why add to people's misery by legal jamming of the band? On the subject of jamming - if nighttime skywave is so irrelevant, how come broadcasters (who insist nighttime listening is not important) are so anxious to add nighttime IBOC. Could it possibly be that they want to jam out of town signals so locals are forced to listen to their station? Why is jamming so important if nobody DX's?

A separate comment on this part...

Much better options exist to the "non-professional DXer" such as web streams of stations. In the case mentioned, WBAP www.wbap.com/listenlive.asp
gives you the station without fading and static.

I tried to look at DX reception (as distinguised from fringe ground coverage areas) in a sample of rated markets, and to project on the national 12+ population based on population in those markets. While this is full of caveats and interpretation, there is only a small amount of such listening, wayyyy under 1% of night listening, which means maybe 0.2% of total all day listening. That is less than a million people who ever do this, without quantifying the small amounts of time they spend doing this.

So let's accept that HD makes them SOL. It is a small sacrifice if HD does improve radio's and AM's ability to survive. It's a trade-off.

HD has been marketed to consumers for only 9 months, and sales of receivers is in the 1 million to 1.5 million range this year. That's more than the use of night DX signal listening already. By 2010 sales will be up to 6 million units, and by 2012 will pass total satellte sales. That looks healthy and beyond expectations to me.

Since night DX listening is so rare, the jamming argument does not work.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

[For starters, wireless Internet will bring the ability to hear audio in the car.

Secondly, HD’s failure is actually not because of consumers. It is due to poor marketing and execution of the system, combined with lack of availability and affordable HD radios.

Many consumers don’t even know about HD, so how do you conclude they have spoken?

I certainly hope I can get wireless Internet in the car. I could listen to KEOM anywhere! But to be honest probably WAY-FM.

At least we agree HD is a failure. But haven't they put 200 million into marketing so far? Give me that much money - it would be hard to mess up a marketing campaign even if it was bungled. People hear the ads, and they are not convinced. Because HD radio brings no advantage to them worth buying a new radio to hear. Satellite gives more programming options, and iPods the songs they want.

Just do us all a favor and don't put IBOC on KEOM. KTCU 88.7 is a good station, too, I'd like to be able to hear both 88.5 AND 88.7 / both are put on by educational institutions, you wouldn't want to jam a fellow educator, I hope!

 

[rbrucecarter5]

HD has been marketed to consumers for only 9 months, and sales of receivers is in the 1 million to 1.5 million range this year. That's more than the use of night DX signal listening already. By 2010 sales will be up to 6 million units, and by 2012 will pass total satellte sales. That looks healthy and beyond expectations to me.

Since night DX listening is so rare, the jamming argument does not work.

Where exactly did you get those statistics? From the HD people? They don't have a shred of documentation as to where those numbers came from. Actual numbers from independent, non-biased sources are hard to come by, but are less than 100,000. And a large percentage get returned as "defective" when they don't work.

HD sales might pick up - but you HD advocates have to convince the FCC to mandate the system. Otherwise - people looking to buy a radio are going to eventually see a $20 non-HD radio and a $35 HD radio - and walk out of the store with the non-HD because it is a few dollars cheaper. Your worst nightmare is if there is a $25 radio in between the two with XM Sirius - and a big picture of Howard Stern on it. Or some other promotion that can't be offered on a pittance of HD-2 channels. Even I would go satellite instead of HD if I had 300 channels to choose from, instead of 20 or 30 HD2 and HD3. And I am one of the die hards that swore I'd never pay for satellite. All it took was satellite in one rent car - I was sold. I heard an HD demonstration, and was NOT sold. Same old format, just sounding better. HD2 formats none of which appeal to me (gay radio, all burned out Beatle song radio, Spanish stuff - BLEAH!) And AM HD where the phase distortion made it sound like the music was growling at me - like medium bandwidth streaming. NOT very compelling - compared to the excellent sound and choices on satellite.

 

[Robert Bass]

[For starters, wireless Internet will bring the ability to hear audio in the car.

Secondly, HD’s failure is actually not because of consumers. It is due to poor marketing and execution of the system, combined with lack of availability and affordable HD radios.

Many consumers don’t even know about HD, so how do you conclude they have spoken?

I certainly hope I can get wireless Internet in the car. I could listen to KEOM anywhere! But to be honest probably WAY-FM.

At least we agree HD is a failure. But haven't they put 200 million into marketing so far? Give me that much money - it would be hard to mess up a marketing campaign even if it was bungled. People hear the ads, and they are not convinced. Because HD radio brings no advantage to them worth buying a new radio to hear. Satellite gives more programming options, and iPods the songs they want.

Just do us all a favor and don't put IBOC on KEOM. KTCU 88.7 is a good station, too, I'd like to be able to hear both 88.5 AND 88.7 / both are put on by educational institutions, you wouldn't want to jam a fellow educator, I hope!

I hate to disappoint you Bruce... KEOM doesn't stream (other than sports remotes) and IBOC is in the plans. I know this breaks your heart. I’m so sorry! :'(

R

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I hate to disappoint you Bruce... KEOM doesn't stream (other than sports remotes) and IBOC is in the plans. I know this breaks your heart. I’m so sorry! :'(

I am disappointed - its a good station and it will be a shame that it won't be on the Internet. One of the most creative formats in the metroplex.

As far as intentional jamming of your neighboring station - I will never send donations to stations that intentionally jam their neighbors. And many FMs are noting a big loss of coverage when they go HD - others not. The phenomenon of coverage loss is not well understood, but may have something to do with having separate antennas for HD instead of using the same bays. A station in Houston lost 60 miles of range when they went HD, and has dropouts all over town. You might want to rethink the plans for HD - it would be a shame to risk your good signal on such an unproven system - that is proving to be a huge flop with consumers. I know a 7th grader in McKinney that loves your station. Put on HD, you may lose McKinney coverage.