"filly needz a danz stayshun"

[nd2023]

What's with posters on the Philly board hating dance music?

 

[Dancerev889]

Its been like that since day one. The big problem is the people that keep fueling their fire. The biggest problem is that posters will go on there and say this market needs a dance station. When you come out of left field and have no evidence or research to back that up, you open yourself to that. I do not respond to a lot of those posters unless it gets out of hand. Last time I check Philly has one.

 

[TonySantiago]

Its been like that since day one. The big problem is the people that keep fueling their fire.

And I stand convicted. ;D

The biggest problem is that posters will go on there and say this market needs a dance station. When you come out of left field and have no evidence or research to back that up, you open yourself to that. I do not respond to a lot of those posters unless it gets out of hand. Last time I check Philly has one.

I will say this....with all that negativity on that thread, a positive purpose IS being served by it. I often enough refer to that thread in my talks and at meetings to show that there is still a lot of hate and ignorance out there regarding dance music. People see it and in turn fuels OUR fire. But we do so without ignorance or malice to those that prefer other genres of contemporary music over dance.

By no means was that thread meant to push people over to the dance music side...other than what I had felt about Philly along with their history regarding dance; this after Pulse 87 had recently launched. But the hatred is clearly there. I haven't experienced that sort of hate in any other market (big or small) that I've posted this topic on.

For now, I leave things to Brett and Kris Henderson to do what they have to do over there for the Philly/So. Jersey/Delaware fans that love dance music. Though one of these days, something should happen...at the very least in the pocket where Z88.9 and Super 91.7 don't come in so strong. And in that sense, someone who lives down in the region should fuel that fire further. This time though, they'll have backup And if that talk should open up there again, I'm back!

 

[Dancerev889]

But what purpose does it serve? Radio executives are not looking at message boards to find the next format to bring to a market. They are looking at research. Besides a few people on here, no one has come up with a business plan to take to any of these radio companies. Look at the knucklehead that said Bob Saget is going to bring a dance station to a market. Do you think that makes the "cause" look good? As a format and a genre we do some of the most stupid things I have ever seen. Labels ripping other labels, artists taking cheap shots at other artists, and the list goes on.

2008 has been a very successful year. Rome wasnt built in a day. NYC got a dance station back and there are more dance records breaking at Top 40. To me that is progress. So what do we need to do? Continue to make great records not good ones and support the stations that are out there. Make them the story because if they are successful, then you may see more dance stations very soon.

 

[TonySantiago]

But what purpose does it serve? Radio executives are not looking at message boards to find the next format to bring to a market. They are looking at research. Besides a few people on here, no one has come up with a business plan to take to any of these radio companies. Look at the knucklehead that said Bob Saget is going to bring a dance station to a market. Do you think that makes the "cause" look good? As a format and a genre we do some of the most stupid things I have ever seen. Labels ripping other labels, artists taking cheap shots at other artists, and the list goes on.

2008 has been a very successful year. Rome wasnt built in a day. NYC got a dance station back and there are more dance records breaking at Top 40. To me that is progress. So what do we need to do? Continue to make great records not good ones and support the stations that are out there. Make them the story because if they are successful, then you may see more dance stations very soon.

For the purpose of the coalition, I want dance music fans to see the "hate". But I do not want anyone to take that hate and go on the "negative" either. If that could build blocks amongst dance fans in any given market to make some noise and start supporting the venues (clubs, LEGAL purchasing of music, blasting dance music out of cars, etc.) in a positive, proactive manner, then that is the steps WE have to take to bring about our argument to the "powers that be".

Regarding that post about "Bob Saget" I knocked that down immediately because yeah, it was stupid. And yes, we're not going to get anywhere with stupidity nor ripping each other (to which I've heard some of that and I'm NOT going to "go there".) That definitely serves no purpose, especially for what we are trying to do. But at the same time I HAD to see that in order to get an idea of where things had broken down and what needs to be done to rise it up. Heck, people probably ripped me...I don't care. Whatever is happening is not about me...it's about the music.

The physical statistics I do have go back to when I first ran the coalition in 1993. Of course a lot has happened in 15 years. One of which is....terrestrial radio is SUFFERING. With the iPods, Internet streams and smartphones out there, terrestrial radio has lost its edge by being too conventional and making every format "cookie cutter". We don't need a "Jack", "Pete", "Frank" or "Gwendolyn" format. Radio has to do something that may be "risky" and non-conventional but can also garner an audience that WANTS something different and that's where ad billings come in. I'm not just saying dance music...that could be anything. New York City doesn't have an SD country station yet the fanbase and potential money is there. Perhaps they would have to do something different than what was presented in the past.

YES...definitely support what is there now. I always have! Maybe the "10 for '09" that I'm doing on the coalition is asking a LOT. But we'll take what we can get. Heck, I'll even take CHR stations that are dance friendly if it means more dance music airplay (such as WFHN - Fun 107 in Fairhaven (outside of New Bedford), Massachusetts). Bring on more acts that can make good music to "break the barriers" of conventional Top 40....absolutely! And the most important thing.....STOP BEING FACELESS! Don't get me wrong, I don't mind a hottie eye-candy in a bikini once in a while. But how about pictures of artists! They're the ones making the music, not the hottie.

Rome wasn't built in a day....heck, I've been at this for 15 years. But things are building. And if taking what is negative, and turning it positive is something that can advance us....then so be it!

Brett....if you have my number, call me.

 

[Mid West Clubber]

In regards to Dance music at CHR stations,,, Some of us COUGH COUGH are trying to do that and doing well with it.... We arent all in huge rated markets, so no one cares about stations like us, and even Power Hits 97.5 in Juction City Kansas... The only other CHR I know of that has a 5 AM Pure Dance music slot.

 

[TonySantiago]

Josh.....

Whatever it takes! Baby steps count as "steps!" If, at the very least, 3 current dance tracks can be on rotation on a CHR, that is a step in the right direction. If it has to take CHR to help push things along.....that's cool. No issue there.

Regarding what I have to do and how I may have to go about it....definitely "guerilla marketing". With only 8 full-time dance/rhythmic stations in this country (4 of them "conventional") we have to go about things differently.

 

[BJSteigner]

How about a station that is programmed by an owner who cares about dance music.

Everyone knows that dance music is competitive and marketable. But corporate radio would rather poison the audience with crap music.

It's that simple.

Every market needs a dance station....

 

[TonySantiago]

How about a station that is programmed by an owner who cares about dance music.

Everyone knows that dance music is competitive and marketable. But corporate radio would rather poison the audience with crap music.

It's that simple.

Every market needs a dance station....

It doesn't even have to be an owner that cares about dance music! Just one that can see the financial viability of it, regardless of their own preferences. We just gotta prove the financial viability...that's all

 

[DJ Becka]

You guys are still talking about this? heehee

Sorry to laugh....but you know how it goes.....it's hard to 'convert' people who are close minded and simply don't want to be converted....they enjoy living in that little bubble of theirs....no use arguing with them....just go about your business and figure out other alternatives of achieving your goal

On that note.......anyone got a few million dollars they want to loan me so I can buy a station and program all dance, all day long? ;D

 

[TonySantiago]

I'm not looking for them to convert! ;D Clearly they have their own agendas and I have mine. They don't have to like what I'm doing but at the very least respect that there is a dance fan base that wants their music to appear somewhere on the radio dial.

They can stick to their rock, talk or whatever other stations they prefer. I'm not bashing their music. That's not what the coalition is about anyway.

Though I DO hope someone down there talks to me (via phone) soon enough because I was patient enough to sit back and wait things out, as per request. Now I'm starting to get a bit antsy because I STILL want Philly...even WORSE based on the criticisms from that one thread.

In that comparison, I did threads in the L.A. and Boston board. They were civil and I hope eventually dance/rhythmic stations happen there. But it's not like this burning desire. Philly did that to me and I want back at 'em!

 

[Dancerev889]

I'm not looking for them to convert! ;D Clearly they have their own agendas and I have mine. They don't have to like what I'm doing but at the very least respect that there is a dance fan base that wants their music to appear somewhere on the radio dial.

They can stick to their rock, talk or whatever other stations they prefer. I'm not bashing their music. That's not what the coalition is about anyway.

Though I DO hope someone down there talks to me (via phone) soon enough because I was patient enough to sit back and wait things out, as per request. Now I'm starting to get a bit antsy because I STILL want Philly...even WORSE based on the criticisms from that one thread.

In that comparison, I did threads in the L.A. and Boston board. They were civil and I hope eventually dance/rhythmic stations happen there. But it's not like this burning desire. Philly did that to me and I want back at 'em!

Tony, you want to get back at people on a message board? Come on man, I thought you were smarter than that. Not one of those people that criticized you make any decisions in the Philly market. You have 3 commercial stations that are rhythmic in Philly. Plus you have one non-com that's 85% rhythmic/dance leaning and one non-com on the fringe that is completely dance. What station do you think is going to flip? The one station that could have gone that direction went AC. Every station in Philly is owned by a major broadcasting company except one and that one is number one in the market. CBS go rhythmic? I highly doubt that. Clear Channel, they got two. Greater media? not a chance plus they just flipped a station. Beasley they got one. Radio one? They are hip-hop, R&B and Gospel. Honestly, this isnt the best time for drastic radio flips. Radio sales are down and that means Sales managers would fight any move towards a dance leaning station. That isnt opinion, those are the facts. You really need to find a small company that is willing to take a risk. Thats why New York got a dance station back.

Again 2008 has been a fantastic year for this genre. The records that are coming out are going to lead the way.

 

[Mid West Clubber]

I didnt want to start a new thread on this, but my CHR is about to go Satelite DIAL GLOBAL and fire us to keep costs down.. If me and Adam leave, the Dance will leave as well, and we will lose another Dance friendly CHR that will soon be a bird feeder... And as for me,, I have no clue what my next move is, I dont have enough experience to work at any of the Dance stations in the U.S, unless Vibe Vegas hires me for just a Jock, (WHICH I HIGHLY DOUBT) Those jobs are probably already spoken for) and I doubt I can afford to live in Vegas on Radio Jock salaries... Maybe in a cheap Motel...lol

 

[JohnParker]

I think that if you want to prove that dance music on the radio is a viable commodity in cities that aren't currently serviced with a dance station you should find people that have some money and can do what To Kool Chris does in Chicago with Dance Factory FM on WKIE.

He leases times and runs nothing but dance for 12 hours a day. It's a cheaper way to buy into a market without having to spend millions of dollars. You keep the commercial money and pay for the time lease. I'm sure that deals like that can be made in any city in America. The dial position may not be the best but if people love what you are doing, they will find you.

To try and convince any station owner to flip to dance now with no real street or sales stories is going to be beyond tough. Money talks, we all know that.

jp

 

[DJ Becka]

I'm not looking for them to convert! ;D Clearly they have their own agendas and I have mine. They don't have to like what I'm doing but at the very least respect that there is a dance fan base that wants their music to appear somewhere on the radio dial.

They can stick to their rock, talk or whatever other stations they prefer. I'm not bashing their music. That's not what the coalition is about anyway.

Though I DO hope someone down there talks to me (via phone) soon enough because I was patient enough to sit back and wait things out, as per request. Now I'm starting to get a bit antsy because I STILL want Philly...even WORSE based on the criticisms from that one thread.

In that comparison, I did threads in the L.A. and Boston board. They were civil and I hope eventually dance/rhythmic stations happen there. But it's not like this burning desire. Philly did that to me and I want back at 'em!

Cool deal. Good luck ;D

 

[TonySantiago]

Based on the economy, I hear what you guys are saying.

You're right John, it is an extremely hard challenge to try to pitch a dance/rhythmic format when you only have 8 stations throughout the country committed to it on one level or another; 4 of which are operating in a conventional manner, 3 of which are non-comms, and Pulse 87's unique situation. The "10 for '09" thing, based on recent events, will be on the backburner though if things happen...fantastic!

For what we've been doing over these years, we did it with NO money. Our strength comes from the fans, artists, clubs, promoters, etc. of the music that feel passionately and believe that there should be more stations committed to dance. For us, it's been a "strength in numbers" game whereas the only angle we can go on is that corporate does hear an "outcry" and "demand" and takes that chance. I would have liked to prove that theory with Pulse's numbers but even that's difficult based on the signal and the unique situation they have by being an LPTV station first.

But now, with stocks heading down to the "penny" levels....the four C's (CBS Radio, CC, Citadel, Cox), Emmis, and other major radio corporations won't take a chance with ANYTHING now, and I understand that. Unless our faces were pieces of green paper with a dead President on it, whereas they might not have listened in the past....they'll NEVER listen now.

Yeah, we need a small company like a Mega Media, but there are very few of the "mom and pops" remaining.

And to Brett, regarding "getting back"....I had taken on the same sort of criticisms and bashings in the past here in New York. Not as harsh as Philly but very similar. I also took harsh criticisms in college where I was only given one hour to do a rap show (back in 1984 where the music was still mainly inner city and was on campus with kids that were mainly suburban) and wasn't EVEN given an opportunity to do a house music show in 1986. I was the "king of post deletions" on another board...a title that I was actually PROUD of because I was talking about something from an angle very few people knew of and vehemently hated or misunderstood. It took a drastic format flip (from 'CBS-FM flipping from oldies to "Jack") that made some folks realize that hey, I wasn't this "nut!" and perhaps we may just be onto something here. Angst from the past? Yeah...but that's been my driving force to push dance music forward.

I know that those guys on the Philly board don't make the radio decisions. But the telling thing about that forum in general is the close-mindedness of most posters in there whereas varying opinions AREN'T allowed unless you agree with THEIR opinions. And quite frankly, they are stuck in that corporate thinking that is now starting to bite back people in the butt! (I still frequent the Philly board and am paying CLOSE attention). If your station, Super 91.7 or a future commercial entity launches and gets the high ratings and can "shut up" the naysayers, then we've succeded.

And yeah, 2008 is the change for the better! Here's to an even more successful 2009!

 

[JohnParker]

Based on the economy, I hear what you guys are saying.

You're right John, it is an extremely hard challenge to try to pitch a dance/rhythmic format when you only have 8 stations throughout the country committed to it on one level or another; 4 of which are operating in a conventional manner, 3 of which are non-comms, and Pulse 87's unique situation. The "10 for '09" thing, based on recent events, will be on the backburner though if things happen...fantastic!

The suits that run radio don't really care about the number of stations in a format. They care about the amount of revenue that said stations are bringing in. It's sad, but true and that isn't going to go away anytime in our lifetimes.

For what we've been doing over these years, we did it with NO money. Our strength comes from the fans, artists, clubs, promoters, etc. of the music that feel passionately and believe that there should be more stations committed to dance. For us, it's been a "strength in numbers" game whereas the only angle we can go on is that corporate does hear an "outcry" and "demand" and takes that chance. I would have liked to prove that theory with Pulse's numbers but even that's difficult based on the signal and the unique situation they have by being an LPTV station first.

Again, that was a different time. Now it's all a money game. We haven't had strength in numbers for 20 years. The dance music community is extremely fragmented and there is no desire on most parts to pull it together. They are all happy with their slice of the pie. So there will not be an outcry. Just a simple yelp.

Pulse has actually pulled some pretty good numbers (up by 50% from the last number and that was very good) from what I've heard. I won't repeat them but they do view this board and can comment if they wish.

But now, with stocks heading down to the "penny" levels....the four C's (CBS Radio, CC, Citadel, Cox), Emmis, and other major radio corporations won't take a chance with ANYTHING now, and I understand that. Unless our faces were pieces of green paper with a dead President on it, whereas they might not have listened in the past....they'll NEVER listen now.

Yeah, we need a small company like a Mega Media, but there are very few of the "mom and pops" remaining.

Again, what we need is too stop relying on some corp. to find out that we are right. They need to be taught. I stand by my prevous post for those that want to do the teaching and feel that the "masses" are out there. Follow the To Kool Chris lead and lease time on an FM. Show that there is an audience, like Pulse & Dance Factory are doing, and when the format wheel spins at the next station looking for something we might get lucky. If not, you've given it a shot and tried to take action. Something that most people wouldn't dare do.

jp

 

[Mid West Clubber]

Vibe 94.5 has a great idea with their mix of mainstream dance, POP and some Hip Hop... It keeps the dance fans tuned in, but yet also gets the CHR audience listening and preseting their station... They may have a stick in the middle of the Desert in a remote area, but hopefully their repeater will help them suceed... I also Concur with JPs idea of a Dance Factory Chicago Idea, this station if 24/7 would be one of the hottest in the U.S,,, they lean on Trance and Euro kinda like Energy 927&5, but also play an occasional pop Remix... Their Mixshows on Dance Factory are hot as fire, even playing Hard Dance, like Hard House and Hard Trance and Jumpstyle during their mixshows,,, I love the 11 o clock Mixdown,,, and I love the kinda mixing Too Kool Chris, Bobbt D, DJ Markski, and Dj Caffeine do with lots of Scratching and sample between songs of DJ SO and SO is IN the mix, REpEat DJ So and So is in the Mix... Too bad they dont have Bad boy Bill..... Dance Factory is like a combo of the old Energy, and the old B-96 when they used to do mostly all dance at night. Mostly the same DJs as B-96 of the past too. Speaken of Hard Dance,,, Too Kool Kris is playing some Hard style,,, or hard House whatever right now.....DF OWNS.....

 

[TonySantiago]

The suits that run radio don't really care about the number of stations in a format. They care about the amount of revenue that said stations are bringing in. It's sad, but true and that isn't going to go away anytime in our lifetimes.

Agreed. No argument there.

For what we've been doing over these years, we did it with NO money. Our strength comes from the fans, artists, clubs, promoters, etc. of the music that feel passionately and believe that there should be more stations committed to dance. For us, it's been a "strength in numbers" game whereas the only angle we can go on is that corporate does hear an "outcry" and "demand" and takes that chance. I would have liked to prove that theory with Pulse's numbers but even that's difficult based on the signal and the unique situation they have by being an LPTV station first.

Again, that was a different time. Now it's all a money game. We haven't had strength in numbers for 20 years. The dance music community is extremely fragmented and there is no desire on most parts to pull it together. They are all happy with their slice of the pie. So there will not be an outcry. Just a simple yelp.

Pulse has actually pulled some pretty good numbers (up by 50% from the last number and that was very good) from what I've heard. I won't repeat them but they do view this board and can comment if they wish.[/quote]

Ummm.....maybe from a business perspective, and you would know that angle better than I would, there hasn't been a strength in numbers. But heck, we're trying. That's really all we CAN do at this point. I have mentioned the "schools" on a past post regarding dance music fans. Pulse covers about two of them (outer borough & to a small extent "soccer mom"). There's still the "worldly" and "GLBT" and they certainly don't want anything to do with a Pulse 87. Someone on the NY board made a mention about 1330 AM. Now granted, it's AM and sound wise has NO comparison to an FM frequency. But if they could take the latter aspect of the "schools" I have mentioned, aimed it at that audience then I don't see any reason why two dance/rhythmic stations can't co-exist since they are targeting two different audiences.

I've managed to look at Pulse's numbers and they are good! Some may want to see the "defeatist" side of saying 540,000 isn't a big number.
And on paper it may not be. But it would have been very interesting to see how other stations would have done, if given the same limitations as Pulse.

Again, what we need is too stop relying on some corp. to find out that we are right. They need to be taught. I stand by my prevous post for those that want to do the teaching and feel that the "masses" are out there. Follow the To Kool Chris lead and lease time on an FM. Show that there is an audience, like Pulse & Dance Factory are doing, and when the format wheel spins at the next station looking for something we might get lucky. If not, you've given it a shot and tried to take action. Something that most people wouldn't dare do.

jp

You are right. Being taught is essential and many don't know (Brett made mention of this on a post as well). However if I would endeavor to do something like this, I would have to venture outside of NYC. I wouldn't WANT to do it here because of Pulse. Just a matter of checking out smaller markets, like Providence/New Bedford or Albany.