I thought those lessons were supposed to have been learned after the 2009 Station Fire? Or maybe fire prevention lessons aren't really necessary? That is what it seems like.
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Fire coverage thread
- Thread starter crainbebo
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I thought those lessons were supposed to have been learned after the 2009 Station Fire? Or maybe fire prevention lessons aren't really necessary? That is what it seems like.
Some
Old Fire: TV reporter escapes burning van
The Old Fire raged toward Highway 18 near Running Springs in the San Bernardino Mountains.Firefighters ran down the highway yelling, “Get out! Get out!” to print and television reporters as the fire began to jump the…
www.sbsun.com
Except none of this is forest. It's Southern California scrub. You lived in L.A., David. You know what grows in the canyons.
Northern California's gotten all the rain so far this season, and regardless of the causes of these blazes (which we'll learn), winds gusts up to 100 mph are going to push them far and fast.
I guess I should have said that my statement included all growth that is either cyclical by season or cyclical by climate ups and downs. To me, the woodlands above the Hollywood Hills, around the canyons of Burbank and Glendale, in all the areas in the foothills of Mt Wilson and all the other mounts extending to the Morongo Valley... and many more. The lack of really strict control on woodlands, whether called "forest" or not, is definitely part of this.
True, and what particularly made it deadly was the Santa Ana winds. We're all familiar with wildfires on the periphery of populated areas. But having them destroy populated areas far from the forest is what's unusual. Downtown Altadena was destroyed. Lake Avenue. If you've ever driven there, it's a couple miles from the scrub. The winds were so strong that they blew the fires through several neighborhoods, destroying homes, and then tearing through the business area. That's what's different here.
You're right, and as you say, there have been many fires on Mt. Wilson. What makes this different is that there are five fires at the same time, and they're not restricted to the mountains.
I have also been saying this for decades about many of these fires. Alas, no amount of land management could have prevented the result of these particular fires. The winds were the ultimate culprit, sending embers miles downstream, beyond any distances that could have been established by either fire breaks or thinning.
The Palisades and Eaton fires also began at low altitudes, below the tree line, I believe -- where any dense vegetation is primarily chaparral and sagebrush steppe. Thinning that type of ground cover would basically amount to "mowing and grooming" the mountainsides, leaving a lot of bald, brown ground where there had previously been color and a diversity of fauna. More residents (and environmentalists and wildlife people) would probably object to that than to the fire danger it represented during dry seasons.
@edit - D'oh. Looks like Mr. Hagerty had the same idea but wrote his response faster than I did. (My attention is half on KNBC right now.)
Yes, and the winds themselves also shut down all possible aerial tanker support for two days straight, giving the fire the final ingredient it needed to simply explode. That and the high altitude water tanks being drained faster than they could be replenished.
Southern California got a lot of rain a couple years ago which allowed the scrub to grow. During the drought all that stuff dries out and becomes fuel. Once ignited, it's no surprise you get a result like this. I've driven on I-5 near Grapevine. The wind gusts forced my car into the other lane. California geography is unique. Adding Climate Change to the equation makes these catastrophic weather events far too frequent...
54-x is actually KAZA, which shares RF 22 with 6-1, which is KHTV-CD.
You’re correct on 25-1 and 25-2 being on a different RF channel than 25-3. KNET-CD is on 25-1 and 25-2, sharing RF 32 with KNLA-CD 20-x.
Thanks for the heads up. My mistake!
Seeing the 5PM newscasts here in Phoenix, looks like all the stations KPHO (CBS)/KTVK (IND), KPNX (NBC), & KSAZ (FOX) have sent a crew out to the wildfires (about a 5-6 hr. drive West on I-10).
There is a sub-set of online comments about the planting of non-indigenous plants and trees in Southern California. The whole area is either true desert or semi-arid land where non-native plants will dry and burn.
This is only the second significant Wilson fire in many decades. Wilson was considered so safe that, until the prior fire, few stations had auxiliary sites in different locations.
Not sure how they do it now, but in the 80s, 90s and 2000s, when I worked for 3 and 15, we flew to L.A.
KLCS web site:
"Due to power outages caused by the ongoing fires near our Mount Wilson transmitter, KLCS Public Media is anticipating interruption to our over-the-air broadcast signal."
This would apply to KCET as well.
I don't see any explanation on pbssocal.org right now for KOCE/KSCI. But hopefully all these outages are just damage to the Edison lines or transformers feeding some stations up there, and not to the transmitter buildings.
(I don't suppose it's possible to have backup generators for multiple 5 million watt transmitters...)
"Due to power outages caused by the ongoing fires near our Mount Wilson transmitter, KLCS Public Media is anticipating interruption to our over-the-air broadcast signal."
This would apply to KCET as well.
I don't see any explanation on pbssocal.org right now for KOCE/KSCI. But hopefully all these outages are just damage to the Edison lines or transformers feeding some stations up there, and not to the transmitter buildings.
(I don't suppose it's possible to have backup generators for multiple 5 million watt transmitters...
)The third if you count the Bobcat fire, and interpret Wilson to mean the entire mountain. Bobcat came terrifyingly close to the observatory in particular.
Station Fire (2009) - Wikipedia
Bobcat Fire - Wikipedia
I remember watching the Station fire burning up to the transmitters via the old UCLA solar towercam. For anyone who would enjoy some memories of the old internet: https://web.archive.org/web/20221130205454/http://obs.astro.ucla.edu/tcbest2.html. I love the two aurora photos. You don't see that in L.A. every lifetime.
Oh my goodness!!!!
Do they have backup towers in downtown LA or somewhere else in the valley?
This is bad for communications. 🙏
An updated list of celebrities who have lost their homes include: Anthony Hopkins, John Goodman, and Ricki Lake. This is on top of Billy Crystal and others.
Do they have backup towers in downtown LA or somewhere else in the valley?
This is bad for communications. 🙏
An updated list of celebrities who have lost their homes include: Anthony Hopkins, John Goodman, and Ricki Lake. This is on top of Billy Crystal and others.
They cannot get fuel to the site at this time. Too dangerous to drive a fuel tanker on the road.
Those million watt stations don't have million watt transmitters. They achieve that million watt ERP with a combination of transmitter and antenna gain. The transmitter might be 100KW but not one million. So a backup generator for a TV station with a 3 million watt ERP is totally doable. And most station sites like to keep there generators topped of with fuel.
But I think the things to really consider are If your Backup generator is inside the building or even a weather enclosure. How much smoke and soot is it going to pass through the cooling system. Will it pull in hot embers, possibly catching the unit on fire. For that matter if your million watt TV station has a liquid cooled transmitter and the air circulation is a closed system. The same goes for those heat exchangers pulling in air to cool the liquid coolant. Or if you facility has an air cooled transmitter in a closed air system and your transmitter room is cooled via air conditioning. Do you risk catching the AC unit or heat exchanger on fire if it starts to pull in hot embers.
If you have a aux site that provides close to the same coverage as your site on Mnt. Wilson. Do you shut down the main site on Wilson to prevent the possibility of causing damage from smoke or hot embers? Lots of things to consider. If Wilson is your only site and your well insured then keeping the station on the air in the public interest providing fire information is what you do.
If the fire is approaching your air intake of your generator or HVAC, do you shut down and let it pass? Thats if you can shut it down. The generator may take some one on site to shut it down along with air conditioning for a room. If you have control of the transmitter you should be able to control it remotely.
I your generator is in the same building as the transmitter there are alot of things to consider if the smoke has hot embers and the generator is pulling that into the room where the generator is.
I hope all the personnel on Wilson dealing with the fire and equipment are staying safe. Lots to consider trying to stay on the air at full power to provide information to the public.
But I think the things to really consider are If your Backup generator is inside the building or even a weather enclosure. How much smoke and soot is it going to pass through the cooling system. Will it pull in hot embers, possibly catching the unit on fire. For that matter if your million watt TV station has a liquid cooled transmitter and the air circulation is a closed system. The same goes for those heat exchangers pulling in air to cool the liquid coolant. Or if you facility has an air cooled transmitter in a closed air system and your transmitter room is cooled via air conditioning. Do you risk catching the AC unit or heat exchanger on fire if it starts to pull in hot embers.
If you have a aux site that provides close to the same coverage as your site on Mnt. Wilson. Do you shut down the main site on Wilson to prevent the possibility of causing damage from smoke or hot embers? Lots of things to consider. If Wilson is your only site and your well insured then keeping the station on the air in the public interest providing fire information is what you do.
If the fire is approaching your air intake of your generator or HVAC, do you shut down and let it pass? Thats if you can shut it down. The generator may take some one on site to shut it down along with air conditioning for a room. If you have control of the transmitter you should be able to control it remotely.
I your generator is in the same building as the transmitter there are alot of things to consider if the smoke has hot embers and the generator is pulling that into the room where the generator is.
I hope all the personnel on Wilson dealing with the fire and equipment are staying safe. Lots to consider trying to stay on the air at full power to provide information to the public.
According to the link below KNBC (4), KCBS (2), and KTLA (5) have auxiliary backup facilities on Tongva Peak in the Verdugo Mountains just north of Glendale. This is the same location as KROQ (106.7) and KXOL (96.3) use as their primary transmitting location.
Not sure if KABC (7) and KTTV (Fox 11) have an auxiliary location, along with the rest of the non-network stations.
Not sure if KABC (7) and KTTV (Fox 11) have an auxiliary location, along with the rest of the non-network stations.
Thanks for the great information, @xmtrland.
As an update to post #94, I found someone on Reddit who reported contacting KOCE and being told by station staff that "someone is trying to get up to the towers right now." Source: https://old.reddit.com/r/longbeach/comments/1hxjgd8/all_3_local_pbs_stations_are_down_due_to_fire/
Very interesting (and telling) that, other than the Reddit link above, I also cannot Google any public discussion or news media coverage of this group of stations being off-air for antenna users:
https://www.google.com/search?q="koce"+"klcs"+"kcet"+"eaton"+OR+"fire"
Even searches for their individual callsigns -- e.g. https://www.google.com/search?q="kcet"+"eaton"+OR+"fire"+after:2025-01-08 -- aren't showing any relevant "chatter."
As an update to post #94, I found someone on Reddit who reported contacting KOCE and being told by station staff that "someone is trying to get up to the towers right now." Source: https://old.reddit.com/r/longbeach/comments/1hxjgd8/all_3_local_pbs_stations_are_down_due_to_fire/
Very interesting (and telling) that, other than the Reddit link above, I also cannot Google any public discussion or news media coverage of this group of stations being off-air for antenna users:
https://www.google.com/search?q="koce"+"klcs"+"kcet"+"eaton"+OR+"fire"
Even searches for their individual callsigns -- e.g. https://www.google.com/search?q="kcet"+"eaton"+OR+"fire"+after:2025-01-08 -- aren't showing any relevant "chatter."
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