First NFL Blackout of the season...

[dhett]

We all know Buffalo will be the next team that moves when the owner either sells the team or passes on.

If the Buffalo Bills do move, wonder what are the odds of that team moving to Toronto? Of course Toronto has the CFL but doesn't the Bills already have a large following there? Besides if Toronto has no problem supporting the MLB & NBA why not the NFL?

The NFL scheduling a Bills "home game" in TO last year was the first little experiment to see if such a thing was possible. I'm sure they're thinking about it. One of their stated goals is to build an international following. Moving the Bills from Buffalo to Toronto would be a first step. It's certainly plausible - Toronto is a huge and very wealthy metropolis and a Toronto team can draw a national following (as the Jays do). Moving there opens the door to all of Canada and not just Toronto. I'm sure the NFL is aware of this.

The CFL will fight to the death to prevent an NFL team from moving to Toronto. Maybe things have changed in the past 15 years, but when I lived in WNY, the many Canadians I knew were fiercely protective of all things Canadian, and especially the CFL. I wouldn't be surprised to see legislation blocking any NFL team from moving to Toronto.

Having said that, the Bills will have to go somewhere. Ralph Wilson is 90 and his kids have never had any interest in running the team. The TV market in WNY has shrunken dramatically in the last 40 years. (Buffalo: #24 mkt in 1970, #51 now; Rochester: #56 in 1970, #80 now; Syracuse: #35 in 1970, #81 now) Can someone say the LA Bills? And when it happens, I will cease to be a Bills fan.

 

[JeeperOne]

We all know Buffalo will be the next team that moves when the owner either sells the team or passes on.

If the Buffalo Bills do move, wonder what are the odds of that team moving to Toronto? Of course Toronto has the CFL but doesn't the Bills already have a large following there? Besides if Toronto has no problem supporting the MLB & NBA why not the NFL?

The NFL scheduling a Bills "home game" in TO last year was the first little experiment to see if such a thing was possible. I'm sure they're thinking about it. One of their stated goals is to build an international following. Moving the Bills from Buffalo to Toronto would be a first step. It's certainly plausible - Toronto is a huge and very wealthy metropolis and a Toronto team can draw a national following (as the Jays do). Moving there opens the door to all of Canada and not just Toronto. I'm sure the NFL is aware of this.

Count Montreal (In fact the entire Province of Quebec for that matter!) out. Let's not forget that back in 1994, the NHL's Quebec Nordiques left there for the ice rink in the backyard of Yours Truly & became the Colorado Avalanche. In 2004 (??), MLB's Montreal Expos left there for FedEx Field (And then later a brand, spankin' new ballpark all their own) in Washington D.C. & became the Washington Nationals.

As such, I don't think the NFL wants to move anywhere near Montreal.

Same goes for British Columbia on Canada's West Coast. I mean, does the NFL really wanna risk alienating the HUGE fanbase that the Seattle Seahawks have built up all these years by trampling on Seattle's toes? Me thinks not.

As for the Jags, if they move it could be to LA or it could also be to a place like Monterrey or Mexico City. The NFL is quite interested in having a presence in Mexico. They see it as a great growth opportunity. Games they've played in Mexico City have generated huge crowds. I specifically mentioned Monterrey and Mexico City because those are the two most prosperous metros in the country and the only ones likely to generate enough revenue to make such an idea viable.

Umm I hate to issue a Reality Check here, but I see (At least!) three HUGE problems with this idea.....

1) Risk of Earthquakes (More so than in California)
2) HURRICANES (The LAST thing the NFL geographically needs is an area prone to hurricanes)

And even if they were to (Somehow!) avoid 1) AND 2), there's this question.....

3) WHAT WOULD THE TEAM HAVE FOR A FACILITY (Has anyone seen any of those stadiums in Mexico? They've got to be like ANCIENT turn-of-the-century construction standards compared to what is used today)

Sorry, but I just don't see expanding down to Mexico as being viable IMO.....

Just my $.02 worth.....

Cheers

 

[JayR]

Can someone say the LA Bills?

No...but I can say the LA Bison.

:-D

 

[DToTheJ]

The Bills have a second Fox 4:15 game in a row scheduled for this week. How on Earth did they get away with that?

 

[BRNout]

As such, I don't think the NFL wants to move anywhere near Montreal.

Same goes for British Columbia on Canada's West Coast. I mean, does the NFL really wanna risk alienating the HUGE fanbase that the Seattle Seahawks have built up all these years by trampling on Seattle's toes? Me thinks not.

Nope, it would be Toronto or nothing for the NFL. Financially, that's the only metropolis in Canada that has the money and population to support an NFL team. Also, the CFL is minor league by comparison and Canadians are aware of this. The NFL games do get somewhat of a cursory following up there - so it's viable. The CFL would have no legal grounds to stop such an expansion. Not to mention that the seasons are different (though they do overlap) and the game itself is a little different.

As for Montreal - never.

Umm I hate to issue a Reality Check here, but I see (At least!) three HUGE problems with this idea.....

1) Risk of Earthquakes (More so than in California)
2) HURRICANES (The LAST thing the NFL geographically needs is an area prone to hurricanes)

And even if they were to (Somehow!) avoid 1) AND 2), there's this question.....

3) WHAT WOULD THE TEAM HAVE FOR A FACILITY (Has anyone seen any of those stadiums in Mexico? They've got to be like ANCIENT turn-of-the-century construction standards compared to what is used today)

Sorry, but I just don't see expanding down to Mexico as being viable IMO.....

Just my $.02 worth.....

Cheers

Pat, you'd be surprised at the large and relatively new soccer stadiums that exist in many Latin American nations. In the case of Monterrey, a brand new 75,000 - 80,000 seat stadium called Estadio Internacional Monterrey is proposed. The plans are in place and could be implemented soon. This thing is proposed to have a retractable roof and the ability to change colors (for some reason). The city already has a soccer/baseball stadium called Estadio Monterrey.

However, in addition to the Estadio Internacional project the Club de Futbol Monterrey also plans a new stadium, with 50,000 seats. http://portfolio.populous.com/projects/monterreyclub.html. So there's a lot going on down there.

Monterrey has no more earthquake risk than Denver does. And no more risk of a hurricane than San Antonio, Texas has. Mexico City does, of course. However, it's risk is on par with LA or San Francisco. Nonetheless, such a risk doesn't play into the NFL's decision making process. If it were, the 49ers, Raiders, Dolphins, Saints, Buccaneers, and Texans would play elsewhere.

As for Mexico City, there is the 105,000 seat Estadio Azteca which was built in 1961 and renovated a couple of times since then. Of course, a new stadium can be built for an NFL franchise as part of the deal and, if anything, such a stadium can be built quicker there than it can here. In other words, Mexico City's stadium situation is no worse than that in Los Angeles. So no, I'm afraid that your idea that Mexico somehow has too many earthquakes and an ancient infrastructure is mistaken.

However, as is the case with Canada, the NFL is limited as to where a team would be viable. As Mexico's largest and most prosperous city, Mexico City could certainly support a team. Monterrey is the next most prosperous city in the country and - I believe - actually has the highest per capita income of any metro in the country. It's relatively close to Texas and is culturally quite familiar with the NFL. From my understanding, they have a lot of Cowboys and Raiders fans there. It's a newer city that has the money to splurge on a new stadium.

The idea of a Mexican franchise would absolutely be tempting to the NFL. Not to mention the money that would suddenly TV rights to Mexican networks and US Spanish TV outlets.

A bigger hurdle for them would have to do with Mexican federal ownership and tax policies. But they have excellent attorneys and I'm sure they could sort that out. Such a thing didn't prevent F.C. Chivas from buying a soccer team (MLS) in LA.

 

[JayR]

The Bills have a second Fox 4:15 game in a row scheduled for this week. How on Earth did they get away with that?

FOX is not carrying the doubleheader this Sunday.

The second game of a doubleheader starts at 4:15 pm ET; the late game (which is the single game) starts at 4:05 pm ET.

New Orleans Saints (NFC) vs. Buffalo Bills (AFC) will air at 4:05 pm ET.

 

[DToTheJ]

I had no idea doubleheaders factored into this decision. To me, it's odd that Fox would air two games from the same AFC team, in back-to-back weeks. Maybe they're going through T.O. withdrawal?

 

[FreddyE1977]

It also should be noted that the Jacksonville airport is quite out of the way, when compared to places like Tampa.

The first time I went to Jacksonville it was on business, and I did not realize that it was the largest city in terms of land area in the United States. I thought it would be a simple short cruise down the road to get to my hotel. An hour later I was still driving, still in the City of Jacksonville, and still not there. While I was there someone did give me tickets to a college game at the rickety old Gator Bowl. That place used to really shimmy and shake!

 

[dhett]

I had no idea doubleheaders factored into this decision. To me, it's odd that Fox would air two games from the same AFC team, in back-to-back weeks. Maybe they're going through T.O. withdrawal?

The network of the road team broadcasts the game, hence Tampa Bay and New Orleans games at Buffalo are on Fox. But I would imagine that T.O. has something to do with the late game decision. If you don't believe it, just ask him.

 

[azumanga]

The CFL will fight to the death to prevent an NFL team from moving to Toronto. Maybe things have changed in the past 15 years, but when I lived in WNY, the many Canadians I knew were fiercely protective of all things Canadian, and especially the CFL. I wouldn't be surprised to see legislation blocking any NFL team from moving to Toronto.

Yet they did allow the CFL to briefly expand into the US in the mid-1990s.

 

[PhDance]

I still don't think Jacksonville deserves that team. It also should be noted that the Jacksonville airport is quite out of the way, when compared to places like Tampa. I recently visited Tampa and can say that TPA is 1 1/2 miles tops from Raymond James Stadium (home of the Buccaneers). My brother went to a Jaguars game against Seattle in 2005 and had nothing but negative comments about the area once he got home. As for Miami, I've heard that Miami Gardens, where Landshark Stadium sits, isn't exactly the nicest neighborhood either. I have yet to visit that part of Florida, so I will hold off on further judgment.

That is probably not a fair statement from someone who admits they haven't been to Jacksonville. In my experiences, the drive between the airport and the stadium is not much greater than it is in similarly sized cities. The airport is a short drive at 65-70mph on i-95 North from the stadium. In any event, it's largely a moot point anyway since the stadium is located pretty centrally within the overall Jacksonville MSA right where it is. Don't think for a second that a location closer to the airport would get more bodies in the stadium.

I've been to the stadium many times (including a few times for the World's Largest Cocktail Party (Fla vs Ga)) and have nothing but positive things to say about the area, so I'm not sure what experiences your brother had.

Since Jacksonville it is the nearest city to Gainesville, there does tend to be a very high amount of attention paid to college football, especially in the most recent years. I'd chalk up recent problems with attendance to fair weather fan syndrome, but I also do understand that football is a business. If the team had to be moved somewhere, I couldn't understand it if Orlando wasn't part of the discussion. There's probably a reason why the XFL and the new football league early next year had/have teams in Orlando. While I don't have the data in front of me, I've heard that attendance for the Orlando XFL team was greater than other cities. Couple that with a newly renovated Citrus Bowl, a rapidly growing population base, and rivalries that could be played up with closer cities Tampa and Miami and I think it would be a winning formula. If the Bills can host a home game in Toronto each year, there's no reason why a few games could be played in Orlando to guage the amount of turnout.

 

[firepoint525]

Keep in mind that the only reason Jacksonville got the Jaguars in the 1995 expansion was because the bidders for the proposed team in St. Louis (who would have been called the "Stallions") couldn't get their act together. Memphis (Hound Dogs) and Baltimore (Bombers) were also in the running.

I don't think Memphis was ever seriously considered by the NFL as a site for an expansion team. The reason? They did not offer to build a new stadium in order to attract a team. The other cities, Jacksonville, and Charlotte, I believe did offer to build new stadiums (and ultimately did) in order to get expansion teams to relocate there. All Memphis offered was to renovate or expand the Liberty Bowl (which I believe they had also done back in the '80s when the USFL Memphis Showboats played there). Memphis has had almost every football league EXCEPT the NFL. They have had Canadian football, arena league football, and the USFL.

I also believe the NFL expansion was earlier than 1995. (1993, maybe?) By 1995, Bud Adams was in talks with Nashville to move the Houston Oilers here. While what is now LP Field was being built here in Nashville, the Oilers played the 1997 season at the Liberty Bowl in Memphis. They were to have played the 1998 season there as well, but turnout at the Liberty Bowl was so dismal that Adams really didn't have much choice but to move his team to Nashville a year earlier than originally intended. They played the 1998 season at Vanderbilt University's stadium. Memphis still held the NFL in contempt for its snub of the bluff city earlier in the '90s. Never was this more obvious than when the Steelers came to town to play the Oilers, and drew a bigger crowd than the so-called "hometown" Oilers did.

The Liberty Bowl is in a dingy industrial neighborhood in midtown Memphis. I believe only the University of Memphis still plays football there. A new stadium, if one had been built, should have been built on the banks of the Mississippi River. But Memphis learned their lesson. They built the new FedEx Forum, where the NBA Memphis Grizzlies play now. And they built the new AutoZone Stadium, where the minor league Memphis Redbirds play baseball now. I really think Memphis is more of an NBA city than an NFL town anyway.

 

[YEKIMI]

I think anytime a Cleveland Browns games is shown on TV, it should have a PG-13 warning. Because it's an absolute horror show to watch. I know people that call and beg stations not to show them cause it's cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[mleach]

In 2004 (??), MLB's Montreal Expos left there for FedEx Field (And then later a brand, spankin' new ballpark all their own) in Washington D.C. & became the Washington Nationals.

Cheers

Actually the Expos..well the Nationals first played at DC's RFK Stadium and not FedEX Field before their own stadium was built. The interesting thing about the Nationals and RFK..even had DC not been in the running at all, the state ( ok..commonwealth ) of Virginia, they were the next serious contender and had Virginia got the team..they too would had started out playing at RFK at first before their new stadium would had been built in either Fairfax or Loudoun County.

Also speaking about Virginia, Norfolk had a serious bid for the Expos too but chances are had the Expos went there it would be the same more/less as Jacksonville and the NFL even though Norfolk/Virginia Beach I believe is the largest metro area without major league sports but they came close..Norfolk actually was the Charlotte Hornets first pick for relocation and the only reason why that team ended up in New Orleans was because NO had an arena already in place that was suitable for the NBA..Norfolk didn't.

 

[BRNout]

Also speaking about Virginia, Norfolk had a serious bid for the Expos too but chances are had the Expos went there it would be the same more/less as Jacksonville and the NFL even though Norfolk/Virginia Beach I believe is the largest metro area without major league sports but they came close..Norfolk actually was the Charlotte Hornets first pick for relocation and the only reason why that team ended up in New Orleans was because NO had an arena already in place that was suitable for the NBA..Norfolk didn't.

Is the Norfolk Scope too small? I know there are arenas in Norfolk and Newport News and, at one time, they hosted some minor league hockey and ABA games (telling you how old they are). Wouldn't that have been enough to get a franchise started, pending the construction of a new arena?

 

[DToTheJ]

Memphis has had almost every football league EXCEPT the NFL. They have had Canadian football, arena league football, and the USFL.

Then even had a team in the now-defunct XFL league operated by Vince McMahon:
http://www.all-xfl.com/memphismaniax/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis_Maniax

 

[DToTheJ]

I think anytime a Cleveland Browns games is shown on TV, it should have a PG-13 warning. Because it's an absolute horror show to watch. I know people that call and beg stations not to show them cause it's cruel and unusual punishment.

Likewise, any games involving the 49ers should be rated R - for "Gore".

 

[mleach]

Also speaking about Virginia, Norfolk had a serious bid for the Expos too but chances are had the Expos went there it would be the same more/less as Jacksonville and the NFL even though Norfolk/Virginia Beach I believe is the largest metro area without major league sports but they came close..Norfolk actually was the Charlotte Hornets first pick for relocation and the only reason why that team ended up in New Orleans was because NO had an arena already in place that was suitable for the NBA..Norfolk didn't.

Is the Norfolk Scope too small? I know there are arenas in Norfolk and Newport News and, at one time, they hosted some minor league hockey and ABA games (telling you how old they are). Wouldn't that have been enough to get a franchise started, pending the construction of a new arena?

The Norfolk Scope at the time when the Hornets left Charlotte was in very very bad shape and Hornets owner George Shinn believed that the NBA wouldnt accept it to their standards even though the NBA believed ( and last I heard still do ) that Norfolk and the Hampton Roads metro area would be a good market for the NBA. Norfolk, within a span of a few months managed to get their act together for a new arena right down to the naming rights ( Smithfield Foods Center ) but New Orleans had an arena acceptable for the NBA already in place and not being used while Norfolk's would take a few years to build and the Hornets had to leave Charlotte ASAP so as a result the Hornets went to New Orleans.

Recently I read in the Virginian-Pilot newspaper that the city of Virginia Beach is now looking at building an arena for major league sports such as the NBA or NHL. If that happens and considering that the population of that metro area will soon top 2 million..might be a bit hard for major league sports to "overlook" Hampton Roads.

 

[dhett]

Keep in mind that the only reason Jacksonville got the Jaguars in the 1995 expansion was because the bidders for the proposed team in St. Louis (who would have been called the "Stallions") couldn't get their act together. Memphis (Hound Dogs) and Baltimore (Bombers) were also in the running.

I don't think Memphis was ever seriously considered by the NFL as a site for an expansion team. The reason? They did not offer to build a new stadium in order to attract a team. The other cities, Jacksonville, and Charlotte, I believe did offer to build new stadiums (and ultimately did) in order to get expansion teams to relocate there. All Memphis offered was to renovate or expand the Liberty Bowl (which I believe they had also done back in the '80s when the USFL Memphis Showboats played there). Memphis has had almost every football league EXCEPT the NFL. They have had Canadian football, arena league football, and the USFL.

Don't forget the Memphis Southmen of the WFL in 1974-75, notable at the time for having signed future Dallas Cowboy Danny White as their QB in '74 and the great Miami Dolphin trio Larry Csonka, Jim Kiick and Paul Warfield for the '75 season. The team folded in '75 after only 11 games.

Ironically, the Southmen were originally to be the Toronto Northmen, but were pressured to relocate after the Canadian Parliament introduced a bill prohibiting American-based professional football leagues from expanding into Canada. Had the team not moved, the bill would have likely become law.

I also believe the NFL expansion was earlier than 1995. (1993, maybe?) By 1995, Bud Adams was in talks with Nashville to move the Houston Oilers here. While what is now LP Field was being built here in Nashville, the Oilers played the 1997 season at the Liberty Bowl in Memphis. They were to have played the 1998 season there as well, but turnout at the Liberty Bowl was so dismal that Adams really didn't have much choice but to move his team to Nashville a year earlier than originally intended. They played the 1998 season at Vanderbilt University's stadium. Memphis still held the NFL in contempt for its snub of the bluff city earlier in the '90s. Never was this more obvious than when the Steelers came to town to play the Oilers, and drew a bigger crowd than the so-called "hometown" Oilers did.

You're both right, in a sense. Jacksonville was announced as the 30th NFL franchise on Nov 30, 1993, but they and the Carolina Panthers didn't begin play until the 1995 season, which was the same season that the Rams began playing in St Louis.