I know there was some discussion before, but if Flagstaff was its own TV market instead of Phoenix. What DMA rankings will Flagstaff will be? Also, What counties in Arizona would be part of Flagstaff TV market. I know that the default NBC is KNAZ NBC 2, what will CBS, NBC, FOX, or PBS station would be? KCFG 9? KTFL 4 (before license cancel)?, KFPH?. Also, will Holbrook, and Prescott be part of Flagstaff TV market if it exist?
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Flagstaff AZ TV stations
- Thread starter e-dawg
- Start date
Coconino County is a given. Flagstaff stations can be viewed in Cottonwood, plus Prescott's K06AE will become a KNAZ repeater when it goes digital and moves to Mingus Mtn, so Yavapai County should be in the market. KNAZ used to have translators in Woodruff and Sanders, I have been able to receive the LPTV Flagstaff stations near Holbrook and in the Hopi Nation, so Navajo County and southern Apache County can be considered part of the market, while the northern part of Apache county, in the eastern Navajo Nation, would remain in the Albuquerque market via Durango/Farmington.
Estimated population of those 3-1/2 counties: 500,000. TV Households: about 195,000, based on Nielsen's Sept 2010 ratio of 2.54 persons per TV household.
The market would fall between #130 Chico-Redding and #131 Amarillo. Losing Flagstaff would drop Phoenix from #12 to #16, between Minneapolis/St. Paul and Miami/Ft. Lauderdale.
Currently, Flagstaff stations are 2 (22) KNAZ (NBC), 9 (32) KCFG (A1 - silent), and 13 KFPH (Telefutura). Prescott's channel 7 would also be in the market if it includes Yavapai County (nearly half the population of the market). KTFL was channel 4 and was assigned channel 18 for digital. There was an allocation for an NCE station on channel 16. Several applications were filed for the channel, but none produced a construction permit.
My guess: NBC/2, CBS/4, ABC/9, Fox/13, PBS/16. Prescott 7 and Holbrook 11 also are in the market, but 11 is now an NCE allocation, so perhaps PBS/11.
Estimated population of those 3-1/2 counties: 500,000. TV Households: about 195,000, based on Nielsen's Sept 2010 ratio of 2.54 persons per TV household.
The market would fall between #130 Chico-Redding and #131 Amarillo. Losing Flagstaff would drop Phoenix from #12 to #16, between Minneapolis/St. Paul and Miami/Ft. Lauderdale.
Currently, Flagstaff stations are 2 (22) KNAZ (NBC), 9 (32) KCFG (A1 - silent), and 13 KFPH (Telefutura). Prescott's channel 7 would also be in the market if it includes Yavapai County (nearly half the population of the market). KTFL was channel 4 and was assigned channel 18 for digital. There was an allocation for an NCE station on channel 16. Several applications were filed for the channel, but none produced a construction permit.
My guess: NBC/2, CBS/4, ABC/9, Fox/13, PBS/16. Prescott 7 and Holbrook 11 also are in the market, but 11 is now an NCE allocation, so perhaps PBS/11.
D
desertv
Guest
When KAZT/7 was proposed in the late 70s (as KNAZ), they were attempting to pick up the ABC affiliation for Northern AZ-KTVK put the kibash on that
Flagstaff had its own WB station for a few years (KWBF)
Flagstaff had its own WB station for a few years (KWBF)
formeraa said:
Not in my opinion. IMO there's a lot of money to be made in covering Northern AZ (and Pinal County, too, as it grows, though KCAB is doing that – I'd LOVE to see their news open, personally) properly.
e-dawg said:
When it was a standalone market years ago, it was somewhere around #190-200, but IIRC, it was Coconino County only.
It's a moot point. It will probably never exist again. Flagstaff & Prescott have already proven that they can't support even one standalone station (KAZT is a Phoenix-based station with some Prescott-oriented programming and advertising, so they don't count in this context), let alone four. Channels 2 (as a standalone NBC affiliate), 4, 7 (as a Prescott-only station), 9, and 13 (as an English-language station) all failed, as did Channel 6 in Kingman as an English-language station. Apparently northern Arizona residents are quite satisfied with Phoenix stations via local translators, cable, or dish.
And would CBS, ABC, or Fox even want to bother with affiliating with new stations in a market higher than #100? Not enough potential audience there (the total population for Markets 101 thru 210 is about 15% of the country - about the same as NYC, LA, and Chicago combined). None of the Phoenix stations other than KPNX are bothering to operate full-powered satellites there either - translators are apparently good enough.
If KAZT didn't have a Phoenix facility, it would probably be gone as well. Wasn't KUSK close to going dark when the Pappas sale fell through and Londen Media bought it?
KeithE4 said:
Naturally. This entire thread has been a hypothetical exercise. In the market I came up with, Yavapai County alone was nearly half the population.
Even if residents of northern Arizona wanted, and could support, their own affiliates, and even if the networks would want to affiliate with a #131 market, let alone a #201 market (where Coconino County alone would rank, between St. Joseph MO and Lima OH), the fact remains that the Phoenix stations operate the translators in Prescott, Cottonwood and Flagstaff, and would be likely to put up strong opposition to the networks even talking to the Flagstaff stations. I'm thinking something along the lines of what Scripps did to get ABC to affiliate with KNXV instead of KTVK.
Unfortunately, northern AZ stations cannot survive on their own. KNAZ is a satellite of KPNX, KFPH-DT is a full-power satellite of KFPH-CA, and KAZT-TV is essentially a full-power satellite of KAZT-CD, with an occasional bone thrown Prescott's way. KTFL could not survive as a Flagstaff-only station without a major network affiliation, and KCFG is on its death bed as well, pinning its hopes on a Hail Mary pass with the FCC that would allow it to rimshot into Phoenix and begin to meet the requirements for must-carry status on cable and satellite.
In other words, it's the same old story: everything goes to the State of Maricopa, while rural Arizona once again goes underserved.
dhett said:
Since territorial days Arizona has been one of the most urbanized states in the country. Maricopa and Pima counties have held the vast majority of the population and that is not likely to change anytime soon.
That does not prevent other population centers from establishing their own radio and TV outlets but the competition for ad dollars is that much more difficult in lower populated areas. So long as stations are ad-supported this also is unlikely to change anytime soon.
landtuna said:
Maricopa, Pinal, and Pima Counties together have about 80% of the state's population. Yuma (+ El Centro) was able to become its own TV market because it had a station early-on. If KIVA Channel 11 hadn't signed on in 1953, Yuma probably would have had Phoenix translators as well.
If KCFG or another Flagstaff station wanted to affiliate with ABC, there is probably nothing Scripps could do about it other than buy the station and operate it as a satellite. But is there enough advertising in Flagstaff and Prescott to support network affiliates? Maybe. But does ABC want to bother with markets that small? Probably not. I wonder if KCFG tried at one time to affiliate with CBS, ABC, or Fox, and was turned down?
J
jeffinaz
Guest
coyoteaz said:
Seems to me she was on KNAZ and was moved down to KPNX, If my memory is working correctly.
Flagstaff had a full power TV station, KVLS (TV side of KCLS), briefly in the early 60's. It's my understanding that lack of a network affiliation, and perhaps loss of the station's tower on Mt. Elden in an ice storm, led to them pulling the plug.
Actually getting network video to broadcast would have been easy: Flagstaff was on the major East-West ATT long lines network TV route.
Actually getting network video to broadcast would have been easy: Flagstaff was on the major East-West ATT long lines network TV route.
ironbear said:
From what I've read in archived editions of Broadcast magazine, KVLS was never licensed and I don't believe it ever made it to air. Charles L. Saunders, the owner, was granted the permit in Nov. 1960 and was last listed as permit owner in June 1968. A Nov. 1964 list of stations with permits that had never aired included KVLS.
Saunders was a 15% owner of Grand Canyon Television, the company headed by Wendell Elliott that was awarded KOAI (now KNAZ) in Sept. 1969, so the KVLS permit was canceled by then.
The former 1960's TV site, complete with tower base and anchors and a pad for the former transmitter building, located on the far west end of Devil's Head on Elden on the north side of the road, has been there all these years. It even showed on old USFS site plats. It's very much a part of Elden lore which was shared by the old timers working on Elden (and at KNAZ) I knew in the early 80's. A physical plant was clearly constructed. Since the people involved are mostly deceased, perhaps a good approach would be research of Daily Sun articles of the time.dhett said:
A quick note to pass along some interesting information about KVLS and other early full power TV attempts in Flagstaff. Some time with David Gleason's online Broadcasting Magazine collection shows that KVLS-13 tried to resolve interference complaints made by the Forest Service itself by asking for a substitute allotment (and CP modification)...channel 4...which was denied by the FCC. That's the official end of the KVLS story.
When the old-timers told me that KVLS had 'lost their tower', perhaps they actually meant that the station had lost the ability to use their Elden tower site. I'm curious now about how far the station got into the construction process, and if the USFS complaint originated with actual interference to other users on Elden.
As a transmitter site owner, and former Elden permittee, I can tell you that there has been considerable (and probably needless) bickering about broadcast uses mixing with non-broadcast at many sites...including Elden.
KVLS would have been only slightly over the 1 kW ERP Elden limit which has been in place for both broadcast and non-broadcast since the 70's. A KOOL-TV translator at one time operated with MORE power on channel 13 than KVLS would have, making all this even weirder. Mormon Mt. was later designated by USFS as a "high power broadcast site", 22 miles SE of Flagstaff, to solve these issues.
I also turned up 2 unbuilt CPs by separate groups on channel 9 from Elden with a great deal more power still in the 50's and 60's.
Why would people worry about TV transmissions from Elden? The local cable company from the mid-50's ran an enormous parabolic antenna, big enough to work well at low VHF, just below the fire lookout (remains of which were there in the 80's.) It's easy to swamp receivers sensitive enough to receive TV from 135 miles away, with local signals.
When the old-timers told me that KVLS had 'lost their tower', perhaps they actually meant that the station had lost the ability to use their Elden tower site. I'm curious now about how far the station got into the construction process, and if the USFS complaint originated with actual interference to other users on Elden.
As a transmitter site owner, and former Elden permittee, I can tell you that there has been considerable (and probably needless) bickering about broadcast uses mixing with non-broadcast at many sites...including Elden.
KVLS would have been only slightly over the 1 kW ERP Elden limit which has been in place for both broadcast and non-broadcast since the 70's. A KOOL-TV translator at one time operated with MORE power on channel 13 than KVLS would have, making all this even weirder. Mormon Mt. was later designated by USFS as a "high power broadcast site", 22 miles SE of Flagstaff, to solve these issues.
I also turned up 2 unbuilt CPs by separate groups on channel 9 from Elden with a great deal more power still in the 50's and 60's.
Why would people worry about TV transmissions from Elden? The local cable company from the mid-50's ran an enormous parabolic antenna, big enough to work well at low VHF, just below the fire lookout (remains of which were there in the 80's.) It's easy to swamp receivers sensitive enough to receive TV from 135 miles away, with local signals.
I'm curious what became, if any of the KNAZ station archives, video, airchecks, et.c from 1970 till the station closed the news department down.
- Status