Anyone here have experiences in receiving FM stations via double-hop Es? I have seen youtube videos of people in other countries receiving double-hop FM Es but not of people here in the US or Canada.
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FM Double-hop Es
- Thread starter Buckeyes2001
- Start date
I would think a double hop E skip would be on the order of 1200 to 2400 miles, peaking around 2000 miles. 2000 miles away is in the ocean (where there are no stations) for many areas of the country. The "Eurasian" continent would probably have more land areas 2000 miles away. Hawaii is something like 2500 miles across the ocean, and ducting is the main DX route from what I understand, though the salt water midpoint would tend to allow double hops more than land.
Double-hop Es is rare enough, but living in North America it even more difficult unless if you live in the far east or west regions of the continent. 2,000 mile 2x Es reception in California or North Carolina would likely land a log from the opposite coast, where 2,000 miles from Nebraska would put you in the drink in most directions.
I have personally heard 2x Es in my location. In 2009, I logged HIGM 88.1 (Primera FM) from Santiago, DR, not once, but twice during the same day (July 7th) from a distance of 1,760 miles. That same distance ring, give or take 100 miles, puts me in a favorable zone to also hear Las Vegas, Reno or Seattle during 2x reception.
Primera is my only instance of double hop reception. There otherwise seems to be a brick wall right at 1,375 miles in my location. I would love to pick up some west coast states, but the best I can do is Utah and New Mexico. I've been trying for Idaho and Arizona for years. I'll just let Washington, Oregon, Nevada and California fall into my lap someday.
I have personally heard 2x Es in my location. In 2009, I logged HIGM 88.1 (Primera FM) from Santiago, DR, not once, but twice during the same day (July 7th) from a distance of 1,760 miles. That same distance ring, give or take 100 miles, puts me in a favorable zone to also hear Las Vegas, Reno or Seattle during 2x reception.
Primera is my only instance of double hop reception. There otherwise seems to be a brick wall right at 1,375 miles in my location. I would love to pick up some west coast states, but the best I can do is Utah and New Mexico. I've been trying for Idaho and Arizona for years. I'll just let Washington, Oregon, Nevada and California fall into my lap someday.
My best is Flagstaff,AZ on 92.9 at 1442 miles....might be a challenge for you with South Bend on that freq. Plus, it's about 50-60 miles farther from you. But if you want to push the envelope, look at the Flagstaff freqs next time around.Lawppy said:
Anyone know how to delete a post rather than just 'modify' it?
I've received a couple of double-hop FM stations here in Poughkeepsie, NY, but the funny thing is, when you hear them, you can't tell if it's double hop or not.
KWZY-94.9 (Sheridan, WY) was logged here June 18, 2005 at 1674 miles, my most-distant FM. Other stations were heard from near the mid-point of the signal path (Wisconsin - Minnesota) which is a good indicator that double hop was involved.
Also, on 94.9, RJ-94FM from Jamaica was logged here on June 16, 2007, approx 1642 miles. This signal was amazingly fade-free while it lasted, but still was likely double-hop due to the distance. The mid-point on this path was out in the Atlantic, although an hour or so later I heard East Florida and logged MORE-FM from Nassau, Bahamas, also on 94.9, both from near the mid-point. That was a good morning, 2 new countries in the same morning, and on the same frequency no less!!
I also have heard 2 Texas FM's in the 1550-1600 mile range. One, KAMX in Luling (Austin) was logged on June 25,2007, when signals were coming in from "everywhere", including a station in Indianapolis on the same frequency one minute earlier. Good chance KAMX was double hop. The other station, KULL Abiliene on June 18, 2010, was heard when all other DX was over 1000 miles distant, and nothing being noted anywhere near the signal path's mid-point. Maybe double hop, maybe not.
And while those of us near the US coasts can hear other US stations via double hop, those in the middle of the country have a good chance at double hop from Latin America, and perhaps Maritime Canada.
KWZY-94.9 (Sheridan, WY) was logged here June 18, 2005 at 1674 miles, my most-distant FM. Other stations were heard from near the mid-point of the signal path (Wisconsin - Minnesota) which is a good indicator that double hop was involved.
Also, on 94.9, RJ-94FM from Jamaica was logged here on June 16, 2007, approx 1642 miles. This signal was amazingly fade-free while it lasted, but still was likely double-hop due to the distance. The mid-point on this path was out in the Atlantic, although an hour or so later I heard East Florida and logged MORE-FM from Nassau, Bahamas, also on 94.9, both from near the mid-point. That was a good morning, 2 new countries in the same morning, and on the same frequency no less!!
I also have heard 2 Texas FM's in the 1550-1600 mile range. One, KAMX in Luling (Austin) was logged on June 25,2007, when signals were coming in from "everywhere", including a station in Indianapolis on the same frequency one minute earlier. Good chance KAMX was double hop. The other station, KULL Abiliene on June 18, 2010, was heard when all other DX was over 1000 miles distant, and nothing being noted anywhere near the signal path's mid-point. Maybe double hop, maybe not.
And while those of us near the US coasts can hear other US stations via double hop, those in the middle of the country have a good chance at double hop from Latin America, and perhaps Maritime Canada.
2-Es tends to favor watery paths - hence for us, 2-Es occurs more often from locations with ocean in between. The 2-Es over the Pacific must be very intense, as we regularly receive low power FMs via double hop in the 100W power range (eg Wallis & Futuna RFO 91.0). Factor in also, some of these FMs towers are not very high above sea level.
2-Es occurs more from the Pacific than Western Australia (which is over a land path)
I'd say that 2-Es is rarely obsvered in the U.S. due to heavy band congestion more than anything else.
2-Es occurs more from the Pacific than Western Australia (which is over a land path)
I'd say that 2-Es is rarely obsvered in the U.S. due to heavy band congestion more than anything else.
I'm going to keep an ear out for Japan on my TV sound radio
KMGN 93.9 would be my best bet at a Flagstaff station. 93.9 is a very open frequency for me with only Chicago to contend with to the west.
dx1ng said:
I guess you would have to be a seasoned DX'er to know when you're getting 2x Es.
Is it true that 2x Es is roughly twice the distance of the single hop? For example, if you're getting 900 mile single hop, the 2x would be coming from 1800 miles?
Furthest I ever received was while I was at the beach in Ocean City MD. One night - I was clearly getting Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Minnesota and Montana. I could see some coming up the coast - but the mid-west stations were very fun. I'll have to post my log from last summer. Simply amazing...
The angle of incidence is equal to the angle of reflection. There are some complications when applied to irregular reflecting surfaces, but in general, the first reflection angle would govern the second incidence angle, and the geometry heavily favors the reflection being very close to the midpoint. Double hop would be similar to a waveguide or transmission line, and the reflecting boundaries are best when they are conductors. Ocean water is a saline solution, which makes it fairly good conductor, and a much better conductor than fresh water. So double hop would heavily favor an ocean midpoint, even if it were a coastal bay, saline sea or inlet of some type. Different heights of the first and second E ionospheric clouds might influence the second reflection, though.
With all the TV E skips I've seen in the past almost 40 years and then the FM ones I've heard, I've never gotten a double hop that I've been aware of or IDed anyway.
My best distance for single hop Es was last year when I was getting two FM stations on the same frequency, one was WPLM Plymouth, Mass. and the othe WLKE from Bar Harbor, Maine here in Tampa.
One station was 1,170 miles and the other 1,380 miles!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLmPdUvOrrA
My best distance for single hop Es was last year when I was getting two FM stations on the same frequency, one was WPLM Plymouth, Mass. and the othe WLKE from Bar Harbor, Maine here in Tampa.
One station was 1,170 miles and the other 1,380 miles!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLmPdUvOrrA
gar - Have you ever got California on FM on a hop??
Never, not even close.
It would take a double hop to get anything from California here.
My most distant e skip catch to the west was the southwestern part of Texas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjQiv6uwSx8
It would take a double hop to get anything from California here.
My most distant e skip catch to the west was the southwestern part of Texas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjQiv6uwSx8
From Vermilion, OH back in summer 2004, I once received KATR 98.3/Otis, CO "Kat Country 98.3' around 10:00pm. The station was coming in in mono but without any fading and without any interference from local WNCX on 98.5. It was so clear that I thought a new station had signed on in the area until I heard their ID. Straight line distance is 1078 miles.
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