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FM HD RADIO QUESTION

O

OldChicago

I understand that an FM radio station using IBOC digital can carry about 2 digital streams of programming along with the analog signal. I ask the question, IF THE ANALOG CARRIER WAS NOT THERE, how many streams of programming could a station fit onto one carrier. I know this is subject to bit/quality rate of each stream, so lets
assume all streams were at the same rate as the current 2 "side" programs are now.


Old Chicago
 
I'm not a radio engineer, but given the same bandwidth as analog FM to work with, it would appear 8-10 digital streams would be possible.

Your scenario will eventually happen, as radio on the FM band will go fully digital at some point in the future, just as OTA television will do in 2009. But I don't see the radio transition being completed for another 25 years or so. Look at what a lengthy process the TV changeover has been.

You might float this question on the HD board.
 
I would think longer than 25 years because analog radios still outsell HD radios. I am for HD radio though. That would be the only thing I would have againts HD would be when analog dies, then all of my 20 or so radios would be trash.
 
It was said early on that it is never planned for analog operation to cease. So jras, your radios are safe. :)
 
newschoolrocker said:
It was said early on that it is never planned for analog operation to cease. So jras, your radios are safe. :)
Click to expand...

That will change. The current analog system is outdated and a spectrum pig. The demand for more choices, quality, access, and efficiencies of scale will force change.

People never thought vinyl records would vanish, either. Or the cassette. Or 8-track. Or Black & White television. Or music on AM. Or home movies on 8mm. Or rotary phones. And soon add the VCR to the list.
 
Mediafrog+ said:
newschoolrocker said:
It was said early on that it is never planned for analog operation to cease. So jras, your radios are safe. :)
Click to expand...

That will change. The current analog system is outdated and a spectrum pig. The demand for more choices, quality, access, and efficiencies of scale will force change.

People never thought vinyl records would vanish, either. Or the cassette. Or 8-track. Or Black & White television. Or music on AM. Or home movies on 8mm. Or rotary phones. And soon add the VCR to the list.
Click to expand...

You should definately check out the HD Board. IBOC is the spectrum pig, causing adjacent-channel interference and has only 60% coverage of analog. HD Radio only adds extra channels of the same old terrestrial radio, and eventually will have commercials, too. There has been very little interest in HD Radio, as other technologies are being developed at a blistering rate - Internet Radio, Wireless Internet via WiFi and WiMax, iRadio, cell phone streaming including Internet Radio, in-dash iPod hookups, etc. Bridge Ratings have analog radio going out into the middle of the century, so I wouldn't worry unless you are an AM DX'er, as myself.

There are an estimated 1 billion analog radios in the US and an estimated 100 million are sold every year. HD radio sales are doing very poorly, as many people have done research and figured out that HD Radio/IBOC is not what was promised. There have been maybe in the tens of thousands HD radios sold, and iBiquity is running out of time - car manufacturers are not interested in HD Radio, as well as, the general public. There are no portable HD radios for the forseeable future, because of power consumption requirements. The table-top receivers need a dipole antenna mounted outside, so I wouldn't worry about consumers embrasing HD Radio and having IBOC ruin the AM/FM band. Analog has always sounded better than digital (just look at cell phones), and analog signals just fade, but don't completely cut out like digital. I don't know why, the FCC doesn't just leave the broadcast bands alone - they aren't broken !
 
I'm not an engineer, but ask someone who is: We in the US went with the wrong system, as usual, and the quality of HD radio is NOT THERE, on the main channel and certainly not on HD2 or 3. Just as with cell phones, the quality is suck compared to standard Frequency Modulation. The only possible way for them to sell HD radios is via PROGRAMMING. Give the people what they can't get on standard stations. That's why people get XM--no wretched 300 song playlists of the same old s**t. I pray the poster who said KLDE's HD2 will play OLD oldies is right, because Baby Boomers can afford HD radios and, if they are told about it, WILL. --Just to get that old rock 'n' roll. Same for all many of format variations from alternative KROQ-type oldies to Texas Country. But if the corporate brains who still think success will come from playing Joy To The World by Three Dog Night every effing day are in charge, expect the complete failure of HD.
 
CaptainShowbiz your post is well said. The coverage of HD Radio in most test cases is much less on FM than analog and does not really deliver
a CD sound. Even in Ibiquity's commercials they now say near CD quality on FM and near FM quality on AM.

AM HD by Ibiquity is a complete failure. It takes three channels, so one HD station is like putting two new stations on the air and it can only be used during the daytime hours. The FCC has begun to look at DRM (Digital Radio Mundal) for AM use since it stays with-in the 10kHz mask, delivers a better sounding digital station and can be used 24/7 by AM stations. DRM is still able to offer all the bells and whistles that Ibiquity's AM HD is suppose to deliver.

I guess the receivers will have to be able to capture the signal of Ibiquity's and DRM's HD Radio. This will obsolete all the radios that will be coming out on the market and the few currently on the market, not that they are selling at a fast pace.

As usual the FCC screwed up and had to go with a different system that is not all it was meant to be in quality. At this point HD Radio is looking a lot like AM Stereo. The vast majority of the public is not interested in HD Radio.

A great place to find out HD Radio is the HD Board on R-I and go to the many links that are there for articles about HD Radio. It will make you think twice about spending around $300 for an HD Radio.

I listen to a lot of Internet Radio and many stations are in HD and sound great, in fact I have gotten so spoiled that if the IR station isn't HD I generally skip over it. The HD on IR stations is superior to AM or FM and is predicted to be in vehicles by the 2008 models. Many manufacturers are skipping AM-FM HD totally and going for IR HD instead.

Makes you wonder about the future of FM HD. AM HD is nearly dead for most purposes, not that it has really gotten of the ground yet, and likely will not except for some big city AM stations. The only AM HD station in Houston is Radio Disney 1590 KMIC. I imagine that sold a
huge amount of radios.

Genehughes Thanks for the link to KAAM Dallas, I like that station, very much like Houston's old KQUE. An easier link for KAAM is www.kaamradio.com . A great HD sound from
the IR station.

Mike O
 
Well the problem with IR is that you need high speed internet in most cases. At least with HD I know I can get it out at my place in Lavaca county. Where their is no broadband, and you only get a maybe if your lucky, a 26.4 internet dialup connection. Here at my home near Austin I got wireless DSL. I have been podcasting & listening to Yahoo radio a lot lately, but I still would love to get a HD radio once the prices will come down.
 
jras20 said:
Well the problem with IR is that you need high speed internet in most cases. At least with HD I know I can get it out at my place in Lavaca county. Where their is no broadband, and you only get a maybe if your lucky, a 26.4 internet dialup connection. Here at my home near Austin I got wireless DSL. I have been podcasting & listening to Yahoo radio a lot lately, but I still would love to get a HD radio once the prices will come down.
Click to expand...
jras, I have nothing against HD Radio and hope that it is successful. I have found IR Radio superior with 1000's of choices and a better sound quality. The articles I have read about HD Radio in magazines like Radio World do not paint a very rosy picture for HD Radio and they are pro HD Radio.

The general public has a so what attitude about HD radio and when they see the cost for a receiver pass it over. A couple of different articles in different magazines have said that the average person is not going to even consider buying an HD Radio unless the price is no more than $25 than a regular radio. The gap at this time is way too much for very many people to shell out the money for an HD Radio, unless you have to have the latest and greatest there is.

I read an article in Radio World the other day that HD receivers will not be in the hands of as many people as Sattelite Radio until sometime after 2010 at the very earliest. A big part could be the conversion of TV to DTV and after 2008 there will no longer be any analog TV stations. The public is much more concerned about the conversion of TV to Digital than they are HD Radio. This may not be the best time for the roll-out of HD Radio, when TV is foremost on the minds of people.

A big problem for HD Radio is that vehicle manufacturers are ho-hum on HD Radio and are skipping over AM-FM HD Radio to the installation of IR Radio in models beginning in 2008. With-out vehicle penetration of AM-FM HD Radio it does not bode well for HD R.

With your your wireless DSL you should notice the better quality of IR R and the endless choices, something that AM-FM Radio can never match.

I don't predict the death of terrestrial radio, but I believe you will find the bands with mostly various languages other than English, especially in a multicultural city like Houston. The AM band is already that way in Houston. FM could likely do the same. I imagine there will also be the Talk, Sports and Religious stations on AM/FM. Although you could even find the religious stations going the route of KHCB-AM 1400 and broadcast in Vietnamese and other languages. Terrestrial Radio is going to under go a big change in the next five to ten years.

Mike O
 
I agree with you that IR has a lot better choices, but like I said, in most cases it requires high speed. I gues the big advantage is that high speed is getting a lot cheaper now, and more avaible in remote areas. I agree with you also about the public being more worried about HD-TV. I dont think I will be buying a new box for my TV unless its dirt cheap. I dont watch but maybe a hour of regular tv programming. The rest I watch on Direct TV. I dont even watch prime time TV on regular TV any more. About all I really watch on regular TV now is the weather. I spend more time on the Internet or radio than regular TV.
 
I stopped by my local Radio Shack and tried out the Accurian Tabletop HD radio. I got the Missouri City analogs just fine even in the store. But after stringing the FM antenna near the store window to get the HD, it felt like waiting for Realplayer to buffer the sound. The HD sounded great especially when hearing KTRH on KLOL's HD2 channel compared to the reception at 19:00 on 740 and the regular analog signal changed from mono to stereo sound when I finally got an HD signal. I guess KTRH is back on FM. :eek:
 
jras20 said:
I agree with you that IR has a lot better choices, but like I said, in most cases it requires high speed. I gues the big advantage is that high speed is getting a lot cheaper now, and more avaible in remote areas. I agree with you also about the public being more worried about HD-TV. I dont think I will be buying a new box for my TV unless its dirt cheap. I dont watch but maybe a hour of regular tv programming. The rest I watch on Direct TV. I dont even watch prime time TV on regular TV any more. About all I really watch on regular TV now is the weather. I spend more time on the Internet or radio than regular TV.
Click to expand...

Hate to tell you, but 55% of households have broadband cable for Internet. :)
 
Just picked up the "Accurian" HD radio at Radio Shack in Pasadena. $199.00 with a $20.00 rebate. So far, seems to work well, although I live very close to Senior Road. The only AM I know of that runs HD is Disney's KMIC, and I can't get enough of a signal for the HD to kick in.

Texas Tuner
 
I would have thought Clear Channel's Houston AM's would have launched HD by now. Anyone have any inside info? I heard Charlie Pallilo once mention the "digital future" of 790, but otherwise, nothing seems to be going on.
 
TexasTuner said:
Just picked up the "Accurian" HD radio at Radio Shack in Pasadena. $199.00 with a $20.00 rebate. So far, seems to work well, although I live very close to Senior Road. The only AM I know of that runs HD is Disney's KMIC, and I can't get enough of a signal for the HD to kick in.

Texas Tuner
Click to expand...

HD Radio/IBOC has only 60% the coverage of analog and causes adjacent-channel interference - I am not surprised you cannot pick up the HD signal ! :)
 
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