FM IBOC Power Increase Sought

[Savage]

Thanks, Radioman - just the response I figured we'd get. I pose specific questions about HD Radio - NOT queries about your resume and self-delusion about the "tens of millions" you "make" for your employer (I thought you were in programming, not sales....??) - and get blasted as a "has-been" and "wannabe." You don't know a damn thing about me. Nor do you appear to be aware, much less respectful, of the accomplishments of corporate chief of ABC-Citadel, the founder of one of the industry's most-respected trade pubs, the legendary programmer-consultant of WMMS Cleveland, the radio CE of the Grand-Ole-Freakin'-Opry and owner of a successful contract engineering firm, a respected group CE and part-station owner from Philadelphia, and so forth. (FWIW I speak with Watt, a good friend, on a regular basis. Don't assume that his absence from this forum indicates what you claim. He remains one of HD's most steadfast opponents. Same goes for Jerry DelColliano, who is a longtime friend, and the other radio pros you've never met yet dismiss and denigrate.)

I pose specific questions concerning the topic. Your retort is I'm "not interested in intelligent discussion about HD." So I guess we can just note: you don't have any answers. If IBOC opponents want to know what you're up to, I guess we should just note what you're accusing US of. "Bickering, bashing and name-calling?" The only person in this thread who is indulging in that behavior is Radioman 100.

Enjoy your top management job in Market #6 and your millions of adoring listeners, every one of which I'm sure would depart instantaneously if you were to suddenly be "promoted" by your bosses to Topeka.

 

[Radioman100]

Thanks, Radioman - just the response I figured we'd get. I pose specific questions about HD Radio - NOT queries about your resume and self-delusion about the "tens of millions" you "make" for your employer (I thought you were in programming, not sales....??) - and get blasted as a "has-been" and "wannabe." You don't know a damn thing about me. Nor do you appear to be aware, much less respectful, of the accomplishments of corporate chief of ABC-Citadel, the founder of one of the industry's most-respected trade pubs, the legendary programmer-consultant of WMMS Cleveland, the radio CE of the Grand-Ole-Freakin'-Opry and owner of a successful contract engineering firm, a respected group CE and part-station owner from Philadelphia, and so forth. (FWIW I speak with Watt, a good friend, on a regular basis. Don't assume that his absence from this forum indicates what you claim. He remains one of HD's most steadfast opponents. Same goes for Jerry DelColliano, who is a longtime friend, and the other radio pros you've never met yet dismiss and denigrate.)

I pose specific questions concerning the topic. Your retort is I'm "not interested in intelligent discussion about HD." So I guess we can just note: you don't have any answers. If IBOC opponents want to know what you're up to, I guess we should just note what you're accusing US of. "Bickering, bashing and name-calling?" The only person in this thread who is indulging in that behavior is Radioman 100.

Enjoy your top management job in Market #6 and your millions of adoring listeners, every one of which I'm sure would depart instantaneously if you were to suddenly be "promoted" by your bosses to Topeka.

Without programming and engineering there would be no sales.

Again, since you apparently missed it, I'm not saying the people whose names you're tossing around aren't opposed to HD, just that they aren't here in this forum.

And, as I also pointed out, I've already answered each and every one of the questions you posed at some point earlier in this forum. I realize this forum has probably become tedious and boring to you since you've managed to run off anyone that might want to engage in some intelligent discourse and debate with your incessant bashing and insults, but I'm not here to debate anything HD Radio at this point. I'll do that where it actually matters. I'm simply pointing out that this little group's theory that the pro-HD people don't come around anymore because you somehow got the better of us in debate is full of holes. I think I can speak for my side when I say we just got tired of the grade school behavior from your side.

These last few posts are a perfect example. I may not know every single motivation of every single player when it comes to HD Radio, but I know exactly why I don't come here anymore, and you people want to debate me on that. LOL! Now your guys are telling me what I think. That's too funny...

 

[Savage]

Yes, absolutely. It's obvious that you're "not here to debate anything HD Radio at this point." As obvious as it is what you ARE here to do, namely: instead of debating the "merits" (such as they are) of HD Radio, you're here to throw bombs at its opponents.

HD's boosters have a long history of chanting "talking points." We've all heard the endless vilification of HD opponents as "Luddites," the constant repetition of how radio - especially AM - is in biiiiig trouble and HD is the "only" thing which gives hope of salvation, inplausible claims for technical achievement, laughable assertions about receiver performance and sales and so forth. The latest example: how "childish" anti-IBOCers have "run off" all the HD boosters from this board.

It's just as likely that, instead of being driven away, HD's fans have merely retreated to various friendly pro-IBOC bunkers to reassure each other that radio's Huge Disaster isn't REALLY headed to the dumpster of failed engineering curiosities.

It's evident to any observer with a grasp on reality that HD is in trouble. Let's make a date to recovene here in a year and we'll just see, how many HD-FM stations have actually implemented the famous 10db digital injection level. Or how many HD receivers are being sold. It's patently obvious that if HD actually did most of what its boosters claim, that there wouldn't be the widespread opposition you claim isn't deserved. The problem is: HD is as fraudulent and irrelevant as the "perpetual motion machines" quack inventors were trotting out during the era of Ned Ludd.

Far from being Luddites, HD critics are realists and are merely insisting on real, as opposed to illusory, solutions to help radio evolve and succeed.

 

[mgpt6]

I would want to hear if the 10 db increase will be heard under the analog which the current IBOC power doesnt. Dont want the interference to host signal and adjecents like on the AM Band. The FM nows causes interference to firnge adicents.

 

[Play Freebird]

I would want to hear if the 10 db increase will be heard under the analog which the current IBOC power doesnt. Dont want the interference to host signal and adjecents like on the AM Band. The FM nows causes interference to firnge adicents.

This depends greatly on the IF bandwidth of the analog receiver and the type of stereo decoder employed. The following articles by Brian Beezley discuss the "self noise" problem in detail:

http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/hdrsn.htm

http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/iboc.htm

http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/iboccer.htm


I definitely hear digital noise (at the currently authorized -20 injection) on my Technics ST-9030 tuner when it's in wide IF mode. DSP-based receivers designed for HD have very good first-adjacent cancellation and should not exhibit the problem, but there just aren't many of those in use yet.

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

The only good things I've seen out of "HD" radio so far are some pretty awsome DSP radios. As a side product of trying to detect the side hissers the manufactures actually had to step up and build better FM radios. After big corporate gets tired of paying the electric bill on this substandard technology in another ten years, we'll have some decent DX radios surplus out there for all of us to play with. Thanks iBiquity! (about the ONLY thing to thank them for )

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

By the way... I went to the Public Radio Engineering Conference before the NAB this year. When the subject of increasing the HD sidebands was brought up of course. A very well known public radio senior engineering consultant that makes his living figuring out what can fit where basically said increasing the power to -10 would be a bad idea for the non-comm band as things are packed in tigher in that part of the band anyway due to the way things are allocated. Interference would be very likely. I'd go to the bank with this guys opinion. Considering there are short-spaced stations in the commercial band, especially on the east coast, a blanket increase would be a very bad idea IMHO. If they want this crap to work, the only way I see that it will is for stations to be looked at in a case by case basis by engineering consultants to see how much power would allowable just like the primary analog signal. LOTS harder to do, but the RIGHT thing to do!

 

[Savage]

I try not to make public predictions - admittedly a highly hazardous enterprise. But in this case I just can't resist.

I predict that The Worst FCC Since 1934 will roll over once again and just hand iBiquity and the Alliance whatever they want - in this case, the increase in HD-FM digital from 1db to 10db. And I further predict there will be little implemenation because (a) it's just not practical for many reasons set forth here repeatedly, (b) the interference will attract - this time - moneyed and powerful opposition, unlike the current HD-AM disaster, and (c) the permissible increase - which I would characterize as "up to" 10db, not actually 10db, and more on the order of 3 or 5db - will not significantly improve digital coverage anyway.

The parade of HD scams continues, clamoring for acceptance and recognition to constituencies which could hardly care less. When The Great 10Db HD-FM Crankup stiffs - just like The Great HD-AM Nighttime Rollout - HD's mad scientists will have reached for all their dopey, irrelevant, fraudulent lore. Then hopefully radio can move on to, borrowing Winston Churchill's phrase, "broad sunlit uplands."

 

[Chuck]

By the way... I went to the Public Radio Engineering Conference before the NAB this year. When the subject of increasing the HD sidebands was brought up of course. A very well known public radio senior engineering consultant that makes his living figuring out what can fit where basically said increasing the power to -10 would be a bad idea for the non-comm band as things are packed in tigher in that part of the band anyway due to the way things are allocated. Interference would be very likely. I'd go to the bank with this guys opinion. Considering there are short-spaced stations in the commercial band, especially on the east coast, a blanket increase would be a very bad idea IMHO. If they want this crap to work, the only way I see that it will is for stations to be looked at in a case by case basis by engineering consultants to see how much power would allowable just like the primary analog signal. LOTS harder to do, but the RIGHT thing to do!

Uh... That would be Doug Vernier, I'll bet. http://www.v-soft.com/ His V-Soft software is among the best for filing FCC applications, a s well as for general purpose "what if" RF work . Predicting interference contours with it is relatively simple, and the results appear to be very accurate. I've utilized Longley-Rice predictions generated by this software, and it is uncannily accurate.

My experience tells me that Doug knows what he is talking about.

 

[Savage]

Yes, isn't it fun to watch? In their desperation to force their stupid nonfunctioning hybrid digital scheme on the marketplace, the IBOC promoters are now threatening - and potentially alienating, with their typical astuteness - one of HD's best-connected and arguably most powerful and consistent allies, which would be NPR.

But then again I've always thought NPR's support for HD Radio was twenty miles wide and an inch deep. Primarily the pubcasters bought into IBOC because of multicasting. In many markets the public stations have gotten a boatload of crap because they've abandoned classical music out of economic necessity. With HD subchannels the pubcasters hoped to dump classical music and specialized services like Radio Reading for the Blind on the side channels, and thus silence the critics.

Alas, once again: in the field HD never fails to disappoint. Even setting aside the generally lousy coverage for the digital signal overall, the sound quality on the subs is generally degraded compared with the main channel and is thus an inappropriate vehicle for serious music.

 

[Carmine5]

But then again I've always thought NPR's support for HD Radio was twenty miles wide and an inch deep. Primarily the pubcasters bought into IBOC because of multicasting. In many markets the public stations have gotten a boatload of crap because they've abandoned classical music out of economic necessity. With HD subchannels the pubcasters hoped to dump classical music and specialized services like Radio Reading for the Blind on the side channels, and thus silence the critics.

Yes, it's obvious that Public Radio saw IBOC as the perfect solution for the overcrowded non-com band. Given that a third of their budget still comes from the government, Public Radio stations would be in the best position to fund the (up to) 10db increase for digital radio.

But having such a narrow swath of the FM band as well as Channel 6 protection to deal with, I can imagine that the power increase will only aggravate the problem.

C5

 

[audiophile.]

By the way... I went to the Public Radio Engineering Conference before the NAB this year. When the subject of increasing the HD sidebands was brought up of course. A very well known public radio senior engineering consultant that makes his living figuring out what can fit where basically said increasing the power to -10 would be a bad idea for the non-comm band as things are packed in tigher in that part of the band anyway due to the way things are allocated. Interference would be very likely. I'd go to the bank with this guys opinion. Considering there are short-spaced stations in the commercial band, especially on the east coast, a blanket increase would be a very bad idea IMHO. If they want this crap to work, the only way I see that it will is for stations to be looked at in a case by case basis by engineering consultants to see how much power would allowable just like the primary analog signal. LOTS harder to do, but the RIGHT thing to do!

Uh... That would be Doug Vernier, I'll bet. http://www.v-soft.com/ His V-Soft software is among the best for filing FCC applications, a s well as for general purpose "what if" RF work . Predicting interference contours with it is relatively simple, and the results appear to be very accurate. I've utilized Longley-Rice predictions generated by this software, and it is uncannily accurate.

My experience tells me that Doug knows what he is talking about.

It does sound like Doug V.

I would suggest, at a minimum, proponents of the 10x boost on FM, be required to show no interference (or maximum number of "cubes" like DTV) within the protected contour using a Longley-Rice model.

 

[hipporadio]

I’m not going to continue to dodge-wizz from the likes of the “TRIPS” here [like RM100] who desperately clamor to their "10-mil ego" and corporate radio penny-stock to defend the indefensible. I will simply report the data incoming to my office – that being that HD radio sales have “flat-lined”. Knock-knock... NOBODY HOME!

Now, let’s talk to the “real people”... KB, I just concluded a 4-hour post-sunset test of the Meduci AM tuner [constructed on the back-bench of an aficionado’s home for God’s sake]—AWESOME – even at night given the wide I.F. Here’s what I got at my parents’ home while on a visit in eastern Indiana... 680 WCTT Corbin, KY – 500-watts from over 200 miles – adjacent to the blowtorch WLW [which appears to have had its IBOC SHUT-OFF for the last week]... 650 WSM in near FM quality... 1320 WJAS Pittsburgh [in ‘n out] but reminding me of the 13Q days [I haven’t received it since 1973]... 1620 from South Bend, IN at a mere 1kw in the final days of their “Love Songs” format in near-constant C-QUAM AM-Stereo [decent audio at over 100-miles].

And here’s the shocking “biggie”... SIT DOWN... Steve Eberhart’s "1650 OldiesRadio" – a PART 15 from North Dallas – receivable in EAST-CENTRAL INDIANA for over THREE HOURS... OMG!!! Nice format, Steve... I verified reception by going to his internet site. Imagine that... one-tenth of a watt cruising to eastern Indiana from 10PM to 1AM into a Meduci AMX-2000 homemade AM tuner in a project box assisted by a Dymek DA-9 antenna... And the consumer electronics empire can't deliver a gratifying signal to John Q Public?

AM is SOOO inefficient and SOOO-far gone : I’m just dumbfounded [rolling eyes again]. Had this been “purely digital” – NONE of this would have been a reality... But that’s maybe what the new corporate radio order would love... SAD! PROBATION and possible prison upon re-offense for the IBOC scammers

 

[KB1OKL]

And here’s the shocking “biggie”... SIT DOWN... Steve Eberhart’s "1650 OldiesRadio" – a PART 15 from North Dallas – receivable in EAST-CENTRAL INDIANA for over THREE HOURS... OMG!!! Nice format, Steve... I verified reception by going to his internet site. Imagine that... one-tenth of a watt cruising to eastern Indiana from 10PM to 1AM into a Meduci AMX-2000 homemade AM tuner in a project box assisted by a Dymek DA-9 antenna... And the consumer electronics empire can't deliver a gratifying signal to John Q Public?

AM is SOOO inefficient and SOOO-far gone : I’m just dumbfounded [rolling eyes again]. Had this been “purely digital” – NONE of this would have been a reality... But that’s maybe what the new corporate radio order would love... SAD! PROBATION and possible prison upon re-offense for the IBOC scammers

Yes 100 Mw, that is what gets me about these IBOC guys, they want to shut off this precious resource we have with, ta da: skywave! this is AM's saving grace besides the fact that it can sound great, it can be received for hundreds of miles intact so it sounds like it's from the next city over. No it can't be predicted with 100% certainty but it can be predicted pretty damn well and not only DXers know this, anyone that drives long distance at night also knows this, my father who is not a DXer at all know this for cripes sake. he used to listen to WBZ down south when he was in the army and then someone here tried to tell me that he was a DXer just because he was listening long distance, haha! He does HAVE A SUPERADIO II does this make him a DXer? No just someone who appreciates a good preforming radio. He complains about how lousy WBZ comes in lately on his clock radio, he's never heard of IBOC and I'm not going to bore him to death with it, maybe an IBOC primer for older people who are plum (New England colloquialism) disgusted with lousy reception ought to be written? Nah, he'd never read it

 

[hipporadio]

Oh, I’ve been having a good time with my new Meduci while on vacation, and up all-night, KB I warned you earlier that the AMX-2000 may-not be a DX tuner – although it’s agile with a good antenna. This is an exceptional AM circuit design, but the tuning is non-gear-reduced, so changing channels is “dramatic” – a silly twitch sends you 40kHz either-way... Antenna tuning or rotation can alter station selection also. It’s inconvenient, yet HIGH-PERFORMANCE.Careful tuning can be stunning and rewarding.

You will enjoy this fine tuner, KB! Jeff Deck emailed me to inform me that you purchased one due to the feedback in this forum... I appreciate that you made that leap-of-faith on my mere rhetoric... I'm confident that I can confess you won’t be disappointed.

My only rhetorical question is WHY a man with a bench in the back of his home can replicate classic AM performance from components he has to scurry-for, while the likes of Sony would settle for gutter performance on the same band? That is the problem with AM radio... NOT it’s contrived low performance; and defective/destructive “digital enlightenment” scheme that isn't selling anywhere! It is clear that effort is not being made at the reciever end to bolster this valuable medium.

This tuner [in its Spartan form] passes the test during the congested night, and provides the lowest demodulated distortion and highest audio fidelity I have heard on a strong signal during the daytime.

Now Bob Savage – you need to “step-up” and follow me and KB and buy one... ‘Just do it... I heard your old station - the former “13Q” in eastern Indiana for the first time in 35-years earlier tonight on this “science-fair project”. 'Time to join the club, Bob! ...It will only cost you a few nights at the pub, man :

 

[hipporadio]

At 5:56 AM, WIFE [AM] on 5-watts is playing “Silver Bird” by Paul Lindsey... Soft opening with good quality [a bit of 10kHz superhet] on the Meduci AMX-2000 tuner... 6AM is rolling forward, and they will raise to their whopping 250-watt daytime power... The 6AM news is starting... Power is up and a PERFECT SIGNAL at FOUR MILES in wideband 10kHz AM. 6:08 AM and the Temptation’s “Ain’t To Proud To Beg” has fired – FM quality is sailing thru the speakers in my boyhood bedroom... Johnny Rivers right now in quality NOBODY would pass-by... WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WITH AM RADIO – except poor receiver design. Badfinger on now - sounds great - New Colony Six is on as I post at 6:19AM - sounds like a keeper on the Meduci. You IBOCers need to buy this tuner to learn a lesson!

 

[KB1OKL]

You will enjoy this fine tuner, KB! Jeff Deck emailed me to inform me that you purchased one due to the feedback in this forum... I appreciate that you made that leap-of-faith on my mere rhetoric... I'm confident that I can confess you won’t be disappointed.

Yes I knew about it for a while and actually e-mailed him once about it and had planned on buying one eventually but when I posted here about it and saw your enthusiastic reports on it I knew I had to have one now.

 

[clouseau]

I’m not going to continue to dodge-wizz from the likes of the “TRIPS” here [like RM100] who desperately clamor to their "10-mil ego" and corporate radio penny-stock to defend the indefensible. I will simply report the data incoming to my office – that being that HD radio sales have “flat-lined”. Knock-knock... NOBODY HOME!

Please spare us. No one intro'ed you. There is no stage. It's just the allledged "Real People" you claim to address here. Lose the bombastic, "Comedy store" dialog. I'm sure, in your world, the intellect you espouse is overwhelming. Here, we speak english.

Now, let’s talk to the “real people”... KB, I just concluded a 4-hour post-sunset test of the Meduci AM tuner [constructed on the back-bench of an aficionado’s home for God’s sake]—AWESOME – even at night given the wide I.F.

Come on. seriously, Dude. What is this the DX forum?

Here’s what I got at my parents’ home while on a visit in eastern Indiana... 680 WCTT Corbin, KY – 500-watts from over 200 miles

Apparently it IS the DX forum...

650 WSM in near FM quality... 1320 WJAS Pittsburgh [in ‘n out] but reminding me of the 13Q days [I haven’t received it since 1973]... 1620 from South Bend, IN at a mere 1kw in the final days of their “Love Songs” format in near-constant C-QUAM AM-Stereo [decent audio at over 100-miles].

You know Hip, I'm actually digging what you're saying. I love DX. However apparently you can't separate your "what I like" side from your "What the average listener wants" side. It's not an uncommon phenom with people who claim to "Know Radio". You might just be the poster child.

And here’s the shocking “biggie”... SIT DOWN... Steve Eberhart’s "1650 OldiesRadio" – a PART 15 from North Dallas – receivable in EAST-CENTRAL INDIANA for over THREE HOURS... OMG!!! Nice format, Steve... I verified reception by going to his internet site. Imagine that... one-tenth of a watt cruising to eastern Indiana from 10PM to 1AM into a Meduci AMX-2000 homemade AM tuner in a project box assisted by a Dymek DA-9 antenna... And the consumer electronics empire can't deliver a gratifying signal to John Q Public?

Wow. That's the "Biggie"? Great logic. You got someone's I-Pod relay from 2 states away and therefore corporate radio quality sucks? I'll leave the evaluation of this up to the board members. I suspect they are wise enough to determine what is happening here.

AM is SOOO inefficient and SOOO-far gone :

If only we had more of these part 15 stations from 2 states away then AM radio would really retake it's dominant position..... Great take.

I’m just dumbfounded [rolling eyes again]. Had this been “purely digital” – NONE of this would have been a reality...

Got it. 1/10th of a watt makes the trip, but digital would not. Makes sense to me. (Board members are you listening?) I'm dumbfounded, too.

But that’s maybe what the new corporate radio order would love... SAD! PROBATION and possible prison upon re-offense for the IBOC scammers

Here have a tin foil hat. And for the love of God, step away from the Bong. This is the HD forum. About HD radio. It's pros and Cons. It's not about your Part 15 reception trials and tribulations. C'mon, I'm not tyring to be ugly, but your alledged IPOD transmitter reception from 3 states away is not exactly HD relevant. And honestly, neither is your radio analysis.

Please understand I'm questioning WHAT YOU POSTED, not you personally.

YMMV

Clouseau

 

[KB1OKL]

Don't mind the Inspector, hippo, he's just a little testy after having a bad day at the IBOC office. You know how it is, constant bad news and then having to put on a big smile for everyone ;D.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

And here’s the shocking “biggie”... SIT DOWN... Steve Eberhart’s "1650 OldiesRadio" – a PART 15 from North Dallas – receivable in EAST-CENTRAL INDIANA for over THREE HOURS... OMG!!! Nice format, Steve... I verified reception by going to his internet site. Imagine that... one-tenth of a watt cruising to eastern Indiana from 10PM to 1AM into a Meduci AMX-2000 homemade AM tuner in a project box assisted by a Dymek DA-9 antenna... And the consumer electronics empire can't deliver a gratifying signal to John Q Public?

Wow. That's the "Biggie"? Great logic. You got someone's I-Pod relay from 2 states away and therefore corporate radio quality sucks? I'll leave the evaluation of this up to the board members. I suspect they are wise enough to determine what is happening here.

I’m just dumbfounded [rolling eyes again]. Had this been “purely digital” – NONE of this would have been a reality...

Got it. 1/10th of a watt makes the trip, but digital would not. Makes sense to me. (Board members are you listening?) I'm dumbfounded, too.

I am no fan of HD Radio on AM. I can't get reliable reception of it, it doesn't sound great (or "like FM") when I can get it, and it murders adjacent frequencies. But, I just can't swallow and digest some of the complete bunk I am reading on this site, such as what you just quoted. I have to give you credit clouseau, you responded with complete dignity.

I, on the other hand, have to call a duck a duck and respond that I've never read such bull corn in ages. A real, legal Part 15 on a jammed frequency like 1650 for hours on end? Hippo, if you're going to just make stuff up, you can at least come up with a lie that is semi-plausible, like "I picked up this Part-15 four states away on 6.855 MHz for hours" or "I got an overpowered pirate on 1710 AM with full clarity." Oh, wouldn't you just know it that this pee-shooter 100-milliwatt station on 1650 AM also streams online? Well ain't that a convenient way to "verify reception." (Cue the Church Lady here with, "Isn't that special?!?")

One thing is for sure, if I had this miraculous thing happening and expected anyone to actually believe it, I would have had someone else bear witness, or shot some video with sound of the receiver and then pan out the window at something from Indiana -- an IU logo, license plate, highway sign, race car, a friggin' cornstalk, something... I mean, there were several hours to do it, weren't there? We're talking about an event like "water into wine" and "fishes and loaves night" here.

Let's "keep it real" people!