FM Talk

[Steven21]

I keep hearing how FM talk HAS to be a big component of radio (especially FM radio) in the future, as music radio becomes more and more marginalized by IPODS, etc.

I know FM Talk has already been tried here (lamely), but I would love to see another attempt, sparing us the ususal syndicated left vs. right borefest. How about a station with a younger focus---but not shock-jock radio either. I'm talking about a local station that really does talk about what people talk about. Think 25-49. I know WBEN kicks butt in the ratings, but plenty of people listen to them just because they're the only station around where you can hear about current events, not becuase all of their listeners buy into all the the right wing conspiracy theory junk.

Imagine hosts like Shredd & Ragan or Ron Dobson (formerly of WBEN) or even Larry Norton. Much more hip than what you would find on traditional AM talk.

I realize the chances of this are about nil, given the market cluster arrangement and the economy, but a station like this would have so much potential to attract regular people. Interesting and witty conversation without all the crazy political agenda nonsense would be an attractive alternative to all the stale *choices* on the AM dial.

These radio companies better come up with a plan that isn't reliant on cuts, because neither AM or FM is giving anybody that big a reason to continue listening much further into the future.

 

[ThePickleReport]

I know FM Talk has already been tried here (lamely), but I would love to see another attempt, sparing us the ususal syndicated left vs. right borefest. How about a station with a younger focus---but not shock-jock radio either. I'm talking about a local station that really does talk about what people talk about. Think 25-49.

Imagine hosts like Shredd & Ragan or Ron Dobson (formerly of WBEN) or even Larry Norton. Much more hip than what you would find on traditional AM talk.

92.9 pretty much did that and it didn't work. I was one of the only people who liked it for the most-part. Stern, Don & Mike, etc. Shredd & Ragan would be fine but that's a hard format to do unless you can find other strong local talents. Easier said than done and EXPENSIVE. And again the same point I made about weekends on WECK applies to what WBUF did; weekends were AWFUL. Might as well play music.

Mr. Pastrick will I'm sure have some enlightening comments on the FM talk subject.

 

[Bob1370]

"Imagine hosts like Shredd & Ragan or Ron Dobson (formerly of WBEN) or even Larry Norton. Much more hip than what you would find on traditional AM talk."

In a more competitive environment where regulations didn't allow so few owners to own so many stations in a market, a schedule of Norton in the morning, Dobson middays, and Shredd & Ragan in afternoons would already be on the air and drawing strong numbers, on either a non-Entercom WGR or a non-Entercom WKBW.

The fact that such a station doesn't exist (since WGR, which was doing well as a news/talk alternative, was swept into the same corporate tent as WBEN in the mid-90s) tells you how concentration has affected both competition and the quality of programming choices. Let's see if the FCC or Congress have the cojones to do what their 1941 predecessors did, and force divestiture and a return of diversity of ownership.

It really doesn't matter if such a station developed on a full-market-coverage AM signal or a full-market-coverage FM. If a station owner wanted to invest in a quality product with a lineup built around that kind of talent core, it would do well and make money in the market. It won't happen on AM because one company owns all the true full market coverage signals on the band and won't compete against itself. So it'll have to happen on FM.

And it won't happen until at least recession's end, and probably some ownership changes forced by the bankruptcy courts. Problem is, CBS, which is financially healthy, has left the market, and Regent and Citadel, who are in the market, may be doing OK in Buffalo but are in a world of hurt on the corporate level, may or may not survive the current downturn, and won't let local management in any market invest in local programming. (JUst look at what they did to WABC in New York, which lives by the satellite and now has almost no local programming left in market #1.)

 

[Steven21]

92.9 pretty much did that and it didn't work.

As I said, it was a lame attempt. There was NO local presence and they gave it less than a year if, I remember correctly. Those a re two VERY big mistakes.

As is ususlally the case with this format on FM, it' wasn't put together well and wasn't given time to grow legs. It didn't work? What a surprise!

 

[aaronread]

In the long run, I agree with you that FM Talk almost certainly will be a...if not "the"...reigning format. Had the "Performance Tax" (or as I like to call it, the "Britney Spears Bailout") gone through...and it technically still might...then I think that process would've accelerated dramatically. But that's only forestalling the inevitable, as you say, due to competition in music from iPods, smartphones, and even satradio.

But until then, FM Talk is a dicey proposition because of two things:

• Well-established AM talkers on hefty signals with a lot of historical listening trends branded into listeners' minds. Like WHAM in Rochester, WBZ in Boston, WOR in NYC, etc etc etc.
• NPR affiliates, mostly on FM themselves, having a stranglehold on a good chunk of the liberal- to moderate-talk listening audience.

The most successful FM talker that I know of...and I'm sure there are others out there that I don't know of...is WTKK in Boston, and they've got one major thing going for them: The big AM talker in Boston, WBZ, has a ton of local programming...so fans of the national syndicated stuff go to WTKK. :

I don't think you could pull off a similar situation in Rochester because WHAM already has the national guys, so the FM Talker would have to go the mostly-local route. That's both expensive and hard to do without the base population size in anything but a major city (which Rochester is not; even Buffalo isn't, really...by "major" I mean Top 10, maybe Top 15 or 20, max).

Alternatively, you could go the WEEI route, which is mostly sports but they have a lot of political talk on there for a sports station. OTOH, they also have one of the most sports-crazy markets in the country, and they have the Red Sox (which has the craziest fans of all), so they could have Pip farting on a snare drum for most of the day and still rake in $30mil a year. In Rochester, though...that's a tough sell. We just don't have the professional teams to really get the sports nuts listening all day. Even Buffalo I'm not sure about. I mean, I know the Bills fans are rather crazy, but what else is there?

 

[aaronread]

Speaking of sports, I've been meaning to hunt down the program director at Entercomm Rochester and beg him to put Red Sox games on an FM HD2 channel. Or even on 950AM. SOMEthing. Christ, they could probably put a straight feed of WEEI on an HD2 and it'd cost them nothing (or very little) and it'd still draw an audience with all the Boston sports fans out here.

Am I wrong in assuming that since Entercomm holds the broadcast rights for the Sox, they COULD put the Sox on other Entercomm properties for little/no money?

Anyways...anyone know how to reach said PD?

 

[JustPastBuffalo]

Mr. Pastrick will I'm sure have some enlightening comments on the FM talk subject.

What a set-up! I don't know about "enlightening," but I'll bite, although I think Tom Schuh would have equal or better observations because he's programmed music radio, been an account executive and now he's programming a news-talk station. Why not PD's Al Wallack at WNED-AM or David Benders at WBFO? WNED-AM is on WNED-FM HD2. Is that getting any traction?

Strong points being made by Bob1370 about Buffalo radio, although I have a different take on WABC. Although the station may be syndicated, the programming originates in New York, a market where the hosts are known as "locals." Imus? Local and history at WNBC/WFAN. Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski? The jury's still out. Rush is the established conservative icon and Hannity was local before being syndicated. Mark Levin and especially Curtis Sliwa are perceived by NY-NJ-Connecticut listeners as local talent.

FM Talk or News-Talk in Buffalo? Well, as much as we on this board talk about programming, it's really about sales. Given the economy and reported decline in billing over the last six months, sales is the critical factor. I doubt that any operator with music FMs is considering a move to fulltime talk. Maybe things will change a year from now, given an uptick in the economy and how music stations may be adversely affected by legislation that provides paying artists for use of their music. Sorry, my crystal ball isn't up to the test. Selling music radio can present challengings in their own right. Selling talk radio increases the challenge by at least 50%. The best sales people in music formats sometimes find it difficult to sell talk radio. I don't mean to be disparaging. In fact, the successful sales men and women at WBEN, WGR, WLVL and WECK deserve accolades for their performance.

Consider one of the objections a good sales rep often hears when selling local direct: "The economy sucks, my business is down from last year and you want me to spend $5 thousand on a package?" Now imagine adding to that the agencies' objections: "We're only buying top three in the demo, the cost per point has to be below $*** and we need a minimum of six no-charge promos a day... and a remote."

There are added objections when selling local News-Talk radio. Not only do you hear objections dealing with the economy, you get the time-honored: "Your **** guy is a jerk. He said this or that and he pisses everybody off. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Women hate him. Nobody listens to him." This objection is sometimes heard when sales reps visit the PD to ask "what might be done" to appease a prospective client. It's a curious objection, given the client who doesn't want to buy the news-talk station is often able to quote everything the particular talk show host has said in the last three days. Yet "nobody listens to ****." That's just the tip of the sales perspective. On the upside, the response, "You mean to tell me that all these people are talking about what ajerk **** but they don't listen? How's that work?"

The programming perspective of FM Talk deals with "growing" the format (incubation period), hiring and developing talent and the performance of WBUF doing Talk. Considering flipping your music FM to News-Talk? You have to ask, "What's the demo? Who will we be competing with in demo and in format? Is there an easier way to make a buck? What's our margin? What's it going to cost us? Is there available talent? How much will it cost to sign them. What's it going to cost to promote the new format? How long can we wait for good numbers to appear? Can we sell on the if-come? Can we sell a weak book? Who's going to buy?" It's exasperating! The GM who makes the decision to flip an 8th place music format to local talk when there's no guarantee of appearing in the top ten after the flip is just asking to be sent packing. Yeah, I know, everybody plays it safe these days, but put yourself in the GM's position. Good, compelling, topical, enticing, opinionated local talk radio doesn't come cheap.

WBUF gave FM Talk a try. It didn't take. Argue those programming decisions and the effort all we want. It's not like WBUF-CBS had an endless supply of cash to hire live, local (Buffalo) talk talent, board-ops (an absolute essential) and news people. If you're a PD who's been through budget reviews, you know the drill.

Talk radio on FM? Shredd & Ragan have it covered. They work hard at doing it well. They're well-known. They do stuff that attracts and keeps listeners. They have a strong production staff with Josh Potter and Jim Jacka. The Edge sales staff believes in them and the entire station from Morning Bull, James and S&R. How the hell do you compete with those guys in-format, in-demo? I've long thought that an FM station that could do what Shredd & Ragan do and combine it with the best elements of NPR's "All Thing Considered" would be a money-making, entertaining format. But then again it's a crap shoot and there are no guarantees. Programming an FM news-talk station against the Edge (to say nothing of WGR, WBEN and 97 Rock) would be a momentous challenge. If anybody decides to do Talk on FM, my bet is it will be an established talker like WBEN or WGR. Question is, on what frequency? Kiss and Star print money. 107.7? Maybe, but that'll be a tough sell internally.

Radio stations face great challenges these days. FM Talk? For reasons that should be obvious, it would please me to hear live and local FM music stations 24-7. Any takers there? Maybe when the economy picks up.

 

[Bob1370]

"If anybody decides to do Talk on FM, my bet is it will be an established talker like WBEN or WGR."

Could be, it would be logical. But as long as Entercom owns them all, would they ever allow intramural competition with their own dominant sports talker and their own dominant issue talker? Doubt it. They haven't up to now, or else WGR and WBEN would still be going head-to-head like they did in the mid-90s. If they'd been willing to do that more recently, but wanted to create individual brands for GR and BEN, they'd have made KB a strong local presence from the center-left matching WBEN's presence on the right and center-right before now (which might make good long term strategic business sense---but even the thought of cannibalizing a major cash cow from within, probably sickens the corporate honchos in Philly). Instead they continue making a token, go-through-the-motions effort with national shows, no local news and minimal local marketing on KB, just to serve as the blocking back for WBEN.

It's most likely going to have to be another owner in another cluster that does it. If the economy gets better soon (which it probably will before the end of the year) and the other major clusters survive (which is somewhat less certain, to say the least) maybe they'll do it. Or maybe it'll have to be some other owner picking up the pieces of the shattered Citadel or Regent portfolios out of Chapter XI, if those companies can't hang on until better times come.

 

[JustPastBuffalo]

I should have been more specific in my speculation, Bob. WGR or WBEN could move their already established brands and programming to an FM as a simulcast strategy as happened with news-talk stations in other markets such as Entercom's New Orleans station on 870 and 105.3, CBS' KCBS San Francisco on 740 & 106.9 and Washington, DC at 103.5, with translators on 103.9 and 107.7. Again, this is only hypothetical in response to the original post, not rumor mongering.

 

[Bob1370]

"I should have been more specific in my speculation, Bob. WGR or WBEN could move their already established brands and programming to an FM as a simulcast strategy as happened with news-talk stations in other markets such as Entercom's New Orleans station on 870 and 105.3, CBS' KCBS San Francisco on 740 & 106.9 and Washington, DC at 103.5"

Also possible, and could happen IF one or more of Entercom's full market FMs crashes and burns and the co-owned AM needs help with coverage issues.

WBEN was once simulcast on 102.5 back in the 1950s, and that frequency would be a logical place for its programming...but the need on both sides of that equation isn't there right now. Star 102.5 is most likely profitable as a hot AC. Until/unless it absolutely stops bringing money through the door (something that shows no signs of happening) it will remain a separately programmed music station. Besides, WBEN covers the market well enough on its own and doesn't have any major signal issues even at night except with Chautaqua County beachfront residents and Lake Erie boaters, so it doesn't need any help from an FM simulcast. If they wanted any better coverage they could probably get a CP to run their main transmitter at its full 10 kW rated power (it's run at half power now to make the licensed 5 kW), further toploading the towers to cut skywave interference to Oklahoma and north Jersey cochannel stations, and filling in whatever blanks exist.

You could also conceivably put sports talk on 107.7 as a simulcast/null filler for WGR, and that would make more immediate sense because the Lake isn't setting the numbers world on fire to say the least, and GR has significant nighttime and pre-sunrise signal problems in the eastern burbs on its current nighttime DA pattern, which 107.7 would solve. It would also fill in the gaps in the Rochester market left by Entercom's very constricted ESPN 950 signal, which simulcasts WGR's afternoon programming and Sabres game coverage but does very badly in towns east and west of the city. If either of Entercom's principal AMs is going to simulcast on an FM property, WGR and WLKK (FM) make the logical immediate pairing.

 

[umtrr-author]

As a listener (and nothing more)...

Attracting me to a new attempt at talk radio regardless of the band on which it's broadcast would have to be really compelling.

And that for me personally is not defined as the "echo chamber" perpetrated by an unhealthy majority of current hosts both local and syndicated, i.e. I'm right; yes you're so right; smooch smooch kiss kiss you're so right; whad'ya mean you don't agree, well you're either an idiot or a terrorist but either way you're gone from my show, to a chorus of cheers and salutations.

Respect others' opinions and have considered conversations? You'd have to prove it to me.

And being at least partially a realist, even I don't think I (who freely admits to being an intellectual snob at times) and others like me would be worth the incremental investment.

 

[Mike Sheridan]

Actually NPR is doing a fine job of compelling talk radio. Talk Of The Nation this week had a good discussion with Henry Winkler and Ted Coppel about the down side of fame. There was the obvious but also some things I hadn't stopped to consider.

Commercial talk radio seems to be stuck in two modes: Insulting believe as I belive political talk or silly talk asking things like have you ever been intimate with a moose?

Joey Reynolds had a good segment with Neil Sedaka. I didn't hear it live and I didn't hear it on the radio. I heard the podcast and was able to hear just what I was interested in without the stuff I wasn't.

Like it or not the times they are a changin'.

 

[umtrr-author]

True, I was thinking of commercial radio. NPR isn't completely immune to lack of full examination of an issue at times (and that's mostly due to the bias of their guests), but it's way better than the majority of what I've heard otherwise.