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FM translators for Valley AM stations

The important thing to note, and probably the more important one, is that on channel interference is worse on modern radio's, and therefore worse for the average listener, than is adjacent stations. As kenrayc has accurately stated, 103.9 KHKK's translator can be received in Fresno/Clovis in the northern parts of the cities, but not because its only line of site, but because KFBT 103.7 Hanford's HD side bands don't reach well to the northern parts of the city, which is why its almost impossible to receive south of Herndon. Durring the times that those HD sidebands are turned off (like the past week), 103.9, comes in over most of the city.

So to connect all these together, KJOI 104.3 doesn't have a bad signal over most of Fresno because of being too close to KFRR 104.1 (which apparently can't even cover Fresno all the time), but because it has a bad site that wouldn't cover most of any city. KFDG 92.5 in Fresno has a great location, good sound quality, but when it gets to the west side of Fresno, it begins to have interference from KMZR 92.5 Atwater, and durring tropo conditions can't be heard in this part of town.

Adjacent low power stations are usually not the issue, its poor frequency choice, location choice and output power requirements based on the previous 2 choices.
 
KFRR first aired in 1992. I personally didn't notice it until 1995 when it was playing much of the same music as 103.7 KRZR.

We (my household) had no digital dials back then, except for in one of the cars. Me or my brother would turn on the radio look for KRZR and stoped when we heard the rock music. We would listen, "til it sucked" (as we would have been saying in '95) and it would most often turn out to be KFRR, we lived in Lemoore at the time.

It was pretty awesome.

Always figured the 104.1 people chose to play rock music for that very reason. Steal a little of the KRZR base.

Later when I moved back up to Fresno (actually moved to Hanford a little before the X104/KRZR flip) I would usually find that I would land on KRZR rather than KFRR.

Oh and kenrayc. How do you find out the line of sight on these stations? Not a challenge, just want to be able to do it for myself.
 
brettbutlerisok said:
KFRR first aired in 1992. I personally didn't notice it until 1995 when it was playing much of the same music as 103.7 KRZR.

We (my household) had no digital dials back then, except for in one of the cars. Me or my brother would turn on the radio look for KRZR and stoped when we heard the rock music. We would listen, "til it sucked" (as we would have been saying in '95) and it would most often turn out to be KFRR, we lived in Lemoore at the time.

It was pretty awesome.

Always figured the 104.1 people chose to play rock music for that very reason. Steal a little of the KRZR base.

Later when I moved back up to Fresno (actually moved to Hanford a little before the X104/KRZR flip) I would usually find that I would land on KRZR rather than KFRR.

Oh and kenrayc. How do you find out the line of sight on these stations? Not a challenge, just want to be able to do it for myself.
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The Longley Rice Method of calculating coverage, which is way more accurate than the FCC filed Maps, because the FCC uses Average Terrain for height, which is a 10 mile radius from the tower to calculate uses eight points N, NE, E SE, S SW,W, NW. and takes an average, Longley Rice takes Sea level of tower minus sea level of my location. For example stations at Eshom point (KBOS 94.9,KFRR 104.1 and etc.)5290 ft sealevel ,but the average terrain height is only 900 ft,making those coverage maps very inaccurate, the FCC filed shows those stations barely reaching Fresno ,where they actually go further to Merced. google it "Longley Rice Maps" then look for calculating them.
 
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kenrayc said:
The Longley Rice Method of calculating coverage, which is way more accurate than the FCC filed Maps, because the FCC uses Average Terrain for height, which is a 10 mile radius from the tower to calculate uses eight points N, NE, E SE, S SW,W, NW. and takes an average, Longley Rice takes Sea level of tower minus sea level of my location. For example stations at Eshom point (KBOS 94.9,KFRR 104.1 and etc.)5290 ft sealevel ,but the average terrain height is only 900 ft,making those coverage maps very inaccurate, the FCC filed shows those stations barely reaching Fresno ,where they actually go further to Merced. google it "Longley Rice Maps" then look for calculating them.
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One good example of the Longley Rice map is a site for TV stations TVFool.com, I go to a station at meadow lakes like KFSN ABC 30 and it would be almost the same for the FMs depending on power up there, KSKS 93.7 would be like KFSN, they are next to each other and used to be Sister Stations, these maps show all of the shadowed areas, For Blue Ridge use KNXT 49, unfortunately there's no TV stations on Eshom Point, the best FM site for both Fresno and Visalia Markets, oh ya Bear Mt. former site to KSEE NBC 24, which moved to Meadow Lakes, current site for KVPT PBS 18 and KGMC 43 and FM KMAK 100.3 a 72 watt station.
 
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Longley Rice is a more accurate way here in the valley for predicting coverage, especially for those located in the Sierra's. The Canadian government runs a good site for this and gives you the ability to do "what if" predictions, such as changing power levels and HAAT changes. Using the site actually verified why a 10watt translator above Coalinga is able to reach all the way to Fresno (K217EQ 91.3).

Kenrayc, in a previous post you made, would you say that KMPH would be the best predictor of FM's at Eshom Point, at least likely coverage patterns, not necessarily range given its proximity to Eshom Point?
 
bjmtech said:
Longley Rice is a more accurate way here in the valley for predicting coverage, especially for those located in the Sierra's. The Canadian government runs a good site for this and gives you the ability to do "what if" predictions, such as changing power levels and HAAT changes. Using the site actually verified why a 10watt translator above Coalinga is able to reach all the way to Fresno (K217EQ 91.3).

Kenrayc, in a previous post you made, would you say that KMPH would be the best predictor of FM's at Eshom Point, at least likely coverage patterns, not necessarily range given its proximity to Eshom Point?
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Yes, KMPH would be the best predictor for Eshom point even though KMPH is about 2,000 ft higher, it is just East of there.
 
kenrayc said:
Well your comparison of KKHK and KABX is off, KABX 97.5 is only 50 miles from Fresno and is at 2500 FT with 8.8KW and has a Line of Sight signal down to Selma, and KHKK is 110 miles away, 1,300 FT , not line of sight to Fresno, but because of it's 50K signal during Tropo condition it comes in, but not 24/7, (same with Cat Country 103.3)and that's why KKHK has 103.9 KDJK Mariposa as a repeater which is 53 miles away at 4300 ft and that one does have a Line of sight signal to Fresno the only problem is with their signal is that it's only 72 Watts, and subject to "Noise" from both KFBT 103.7 and KFRR 104, but with the right receiver it's still possible, I get it in North Fresno.
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Well said, you really know your stuff!!!

103.9 KDJK is more harder than ever to get their station, even in the Chukchansi parking lot, even in Oakhurst, but the 104.1 KHKK signal is blasting away. This just is not right!
 
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Yes, it is a good observation, just that the "noise" on 103.9 is almost always caused by KFBT's 103.7 HD side bands which limits reception to North Fresno and Clovis, otherwise the signal might be heard in Selma because of its line of sight.
 
There is most likely a geographic and mathematical equation for calculating "line of site" for any given station, but the easiest way to to tell is just to listen. Line of site stations will consistently and reliably be received given they have enough output power to cover the area.

Line of site stations have a certain quality to them, both in how they sound but also in the fuzz and static a radio receives. This is why in Fresno a station like KIOO 99.7 Visalia can be heard on the dial, but it is often received with fuzz, break ups and static unless there is tropo conditions improving its signal.

Yes the station can be received with a directional antenna and a bit of effort, but its not like its sister station KJUG which has a similar output power but has a better HAAT which actually 'see's" Fresno from that elevation. This is why KCRZ 104.9 Tipton is received better in Fresno/Clovis than is its sister station at just a fraction of the power.
 
bjmtech said:
Would there by anything preventing KIOO from moving to the KJUG/KCRZ tower site?
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KDUV 88.9 is 10.8 mhz from 99.7, no station can be 10.6 and 10.8 from each other with-in 10 miles of each other.
It's really too bad they can't, The FOX needs competition, KIOO's music library is so much bigger than the Fox same old 500 song playlist they been playing for 25 years, and The Blaze recently pulled most of their Classic Rock music library for currents.
 
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kenrayc said:
KDUV 88.9 is 10.8 mhz from 99.7, no station can be 10.6 and 10.8 from each other with-in 10 miles of each other.
It's really too bad they can't, The FOX needs competition, KIOO's music library is so much bigger than the Fox same old 500 song playlist they been playing for 25 years, and The Blaze recently pulled most of their Classic Rock music library for currents.
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I can't listen to 95.7 The Fox anymore. Too boring for me, and not enough variety for me. I like KHKK 104.1. KIOO 99.7 is ok too.

I think if KIOO had a little higher tower, maybe 100' or so, it would be a little stronger. I cannot understand that a 10watt station east of Bakersfield can be heard real good by the time I hit Lerdo Highway and 7th Standard in North Bakersfield. By the time I get to highway 46 in Famoso on 99, I lose the 99.7 signal. McFarland and Delano is fine.
 
bjmtech said:
Would there by anything preventing KIOO from moving to the KJUG/KCRZ tower site?
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I'm guessing 99.9 out of Mariposa/Merced is preventing that from that move. It won't work.

It is amazing how they been able to fit 104.9 KCRZ up there with nearby 105.1 KBZZ just north of there in Auberry. I think 104.9 is running a directional pattern aimed for primarily Visalia/Tulare.
 
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DanielBoone said:
I'm guessing 99.9 out of Mariposa/Merced is preventing that from that move. It won't work.

It is amazing how they been able to fit 104.9 KCRZ up there with nearby 105.1 KBZZ just north of there in Auberry. I think 104.9 is running a directional pattern aimed for primarily Visalia/Tulare.
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That's because KCRZ 104.9 and KKBZ are Class B1 stations, they have less power than KIOO 99.7 and KCIV 99.9 Mount Bullion(Mariposa)which are class B, but 99.9 is much further north, so 99.7 could find a better location, not within 10 miles of KDUV 88.9 (The10.6 10.8 rule), to bad Eshom Point can't be used (Due to KMAK 100.3) like many other Original Visalia, Tulare, and Hanford Market stations that eventually became Fresno stations.
KCRZ 104.9 does work well in Fresno with The Blaze, with the right receiver, I get 104.9 in Clovis home and car in Clovis with no bleed, but if I drive north to Shepherd, but east of Chestnut in North East Fresno, then I start to get the interference.
 
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kenrayc said:
That's because KCRZ 104.9 and KKBZ are Class B1 stations, they have less power than KIOO 99.7 and KCIV 99.9 Mount Bullion(Mariposa)which are class B, but 99.9 is much further north, so 99.7 could find a better location, not within 10 miles of KDUV 88.9 (The10.6 10.8 rule), to bad Eshom Point can't be used (Due to KMAK 100.3) like many other Original Visalia, Tulare, and Hanford Market stations that eventually became Fresno stations.
KCRZ 104.9 does work well in Fresno with The Blaze, with the right receiver, I get 104.9 in Clovis home and car in Clovis with no bleed, but if I drive north to Shepherd, but east of Chestnut in North East Fresno, then I start to get the interference.
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That makes sense to me.
 
kenrayc said:
That's because KCRZ 104.9 and KKBZ are Class B1 stations, they have less power than KIOO 99.7 and KCIV 99.9 Mount Bullion(Mariposa)which are class B, but 99.9 is much further north, so 99.7 could find a better location, not within 10 miles of KDUV 88.9 (The10.6 10.8 rule), to bad Eshom Point can't be used (Due to KMAK 100.3) like many other Original Visalia, Tulare, and Hanford Market stations that eventually became Fresno stations.
KCRZ 104.9 does work well in Fresno with The Blaze, with the right receiver, I get 104.9 in Clovis home and car in Clovis with no bleed, but if I drive north to Shepherd, but east of Chestnut in North East Fresno, then I start to get the interference.
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If KIOO could move just a bit north but much higher than they currently are, how close could they get to KMAK without violating spacing/distance rules?

Yea, because of the class of KKBZ and KCRZ they both can have good elevation and still cover similar areas.
 
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