FM translators within 128 for RKO, EEI?

[raccoonradio]

Will we see some FM translators helping out WRKO or WEEI within 128? The move is to FM for many news-talkers (or a simulcast) but RKO and EEI are stuck with the problem of Mike 93.7, WAAF,
and WKAF being fairly successful so you don't see a move there--and as for translators what freqs
are available? Probably not much. (A good thing for people at work or in certain types of buildings etc who have trouble picking up AM...I have a friend in Salem who lives in an apartment building and I asked him to record Howie on the day Whitey was caught. He _couldn't pick up WRKO_, at least not well enough to make it worthwhile. I got it via a podcast anyway. At the time I was in a place where "Pirate Radio" meant baseball on 104.7...yes, Pittsburgh.)

I was passing through the "upper valley" of VT/NH and noted that WUVR 1490 is also on a translator at 98.9 (250 watts at 221 feet I believe--W255CF). They were running Howie Carr. What was odd was that
the translator got first billing when they gave frequencies: "WUVR 98.9 and 1490" (the calls of
the 98.9 isn't WUVR, this wasn't a legal ID, it was more of a liner). Is that how popular FM
is being seen these days? That would be like (I know, 93.7 isn't a translator) WRKO simulcasting on 93.7 (but keeping the WMKK calls) and doing a liner as "WRKO 93.7 and 680".

I don't know if it would ever happen, but I do note up in NH/VT they were accenting the FM
booster. (It isn't even reflected on the WNTK website, no mention of the 98.9 though...they mention the 99.7 but not the 98.9) http://www.wntk.com/index.php

http://www.radio-locator.com/info/W255CF-FX
(No coverage map for the 98.9...which I was getting across the line in VT as well on US-5)

 

[DanStrassberg]

Will we see some FM translators helping out WRKO or WEEI within 128?

What, exactly are you proposing for frequencies? 101.3? 99.9? What kind of power at what antenna height could you get for these? And what would you use for a transmitter site? Supposedly a full house at One Financial Center. I suspect the same is true atop the Pru but maybe not. Could you do anything worthwhile with 100W or even 250W from the Pru? Could the master antenna, with all of those high-power signals on it, also carry low-power signals? What about One Beacon St.? I've heard that used to have a TV station on it.

BTW, Bob, nothing that could be done with low power from any site downtown, would help you out getting the Red Sox night games where you work in... where is it? Billerica? Maybe you want to campaign for a low-power 101.3 and/or 99.9 on the 93.7 tower. Wouldn't help downtown but it might help where you work.

 

[Laurence Glavin]

WPKZ-AM 1280 in Fitchburg, MA heavily promotes its translator at 105.3 FM but rarely (or as far as I can tell NEVER) reports its actual call letters.

 

[raccoonradio]

That's what I'm saying--we may not get them due to a lack of freqs, though Worcester's WTAG got the 94.1 in "Tatnuck" wherever that is. Obviously there was more room in the Upper Valley and they could have just as well gone to some church in Idaho, expanding its outreach, or to NH or VT public radio which have been expanding to cover diff. parts of the states with talk, classical, etc. Unless
a major FM signal in Boston is up for sale and Entercom grabs it, we wouldn't necessarily see
"EEI on FM (within 128", RKO etc.

Concord NH is another case of an AM finding an FM to simulcast on with WKXL also appearing on
103.9

If there weren't so many other signals in the way you could poss. do something like 101.3 or whatever but indeed the various obstacles are out there--something we've discussed for such
things as " could such-and-such a station move closer to Boston" (either AM or FM). I see moves
like the 103.7 WSCA translator from Salem to maybe Saugus, but it's not like they're a powerhouse in demand signal. But they indeed did what they could to get closer to Boston,
just as WESX got the Nahant COL to move their stick to Lynn. A majestic 3,900 people in Nahant--not one single traffic light. And not much traffic either!

I work in N. Reading and again while 93.7 is impossible (that would work best but they're happy with "Mike"), a low power like 101.3 or something may work, who knows. I tried HD radio (no reception of 93.7 HD-3 on the
workroom floor), etc.; we do have someone who bought a Brookstone FM re-transmitter to
send Red Sox games to one area ($150; it uses a 900 MHz signal that can go through thick
walls like what we have at work, and beams signal of WEEI 850 from a radio at the periphery of the building to a speaker some distance away. But I can't pick up that signal, and of course
it isn't on the standard FM band anyway. And I'm a little far from where the guy has his speaker. Can hear it at times if I'm working in area.

When I was in Pittsburgh, there was no trouble picking up Pirates games in hotels, etc., because they're on FM (104.7)--plus I was a lot closer to downtown of course.

Laurence: Yup re: the translator, which occasionally comes in barely nr North Reading, fighting out with the 105.3 from Hampton NH

As for call letters they may have to say them at legal ID time but that's the only time.

As for the idea of a 250w signal from the Pru, etc., the proximity to other signals might make
it impossible (101.1/NH, 101.5/Prov... 99.7/RI, 99.9 Cape Cod/etc)

 

[reelyreal]

Without doing a full-out channel study I can't say with 100% certainty, but I feel pretty confident that if translator space were available within 128, you can bet someone would have made a grab for it. I mean, W242AA Beacon Hill on 96.3 can only operate with 5 watts, directional at that. Even that translator was a tight squeeze in 1990, with the original frequency of 97.7 being challenged by then-WCAV Brockton, and the current spot on the dial only possible with a waiver from 96.9.

Worcester is a completely different animal. The dial is less congested out there (less congested in terms of New England... it's pretty bad up here.)

 

[DanStrassberg]

Without doing a full-out channel study I can't say with 100% certainty, but I feel pretty confident that if translator space were available within 128, you can bet someone would have made a grab for it. I mean, W242AA Beacon Hill on 96.3 can only operate with 5 watts, directional at that. Even that translator was a tight squeeze in 1990, with the original frequency of 97.7 being challenged by then-WCAV Brockton, and the current spot on the dial only possible with a waiver from 96.9.

The reason I mentioned 101.3 is that I think that WFNX--when it was still transmitting from the old Channel 7 tower in Medford--had a translator on 101.3 at--I think--One Financial Center. I don't think the translator was directional, but if I ever knew the power (and I don't think I did), I have long since forgotten it. As for 99.9, I don't think the 99.9 on Cape Cod is too close to Boston to permit a co-channel translator, particularly if the translator were directional--but I don't KNOW that. For such a translator to be useful in the City of Boston, I imagine that it would have to be directional and probably would have to be located on the WGBH/WKAF tower on Great Blue Hill or on the tower where WUMB is located in Quincy.

 

[raccoonradio]

If using the same freq as one being used on the Cape might work out, why not 106.1--currently home to a pirate at the moment, Touch 106.1. Though I'm trying to remember, wasn't that the freq
Radio Free Allston (later Allston-Brighton Free Radio, which used AM) used, and there were complaints from the likes of WROR about it?

101.3 has been the home to a pirate too, Big City Radio I believe

 

[reelyreal]

W267AI, the 10 watt translator on the Hancock for WFNX, was short-spaced to WFNX. It's out.

99.9 is second-adjacent to WCRB. It's out.

106.1 is second-adjacent to WROR. It's out.


Another good study on what can happen to move-in translators is playing out in a couple of markets across the U.S., including New York. If a translator causes ANY interference to a full-powered radio station, even if the interference occurs outside the protected contour of said station, they can petition the FCC and the translator must cease operations until the interference is fixed.

 

[mgpt6]

Entercomm may have to bite the bullet and put EEI on93.7FM with thier loss of ratings to 98.5 Perahps keep Mike FM on 97.7 and 107.3 HD-2

 

[raccoonradio]

Did they change the rules to make second-adjacents possible? Can't remember. I thought some sort of change was made and it was possible to squeeze more stations in. Didn't the 92.1 out of Newton NH (nr Lawrence) recently move to 102.9? That's a second adjacent to WKLB 102.5 Waltham.

Well, if Touch 106.1 is second adjacent to WROR, why hasn't it been shut down (no complaints?)? A possible 106.1 would be first adjacent to the 106.3 in Nashua, for that matter.

>>If a translator causes ANY interference to a full-powered radio station, even if the interference occurs outside the protected contour of said station, they can petition the FCC and the translator must cease operations until the interference is fixed.

I think that happened in NH with the 92.1 (Newton NH), right? Caused problems with the 92.1 in
Peterborough.

>>put EEI on93.7FM with thier loss of ratings to 98.5 Perahps keep Mike FM on 97.7 and 107.3 HD-2

Again possible but no sign of it thus far. I would be happy if 93.7 carried just Sox games but Entercom's concern is they're presenting Mike as a variety hits station and running the Sox
means about 4 hours or so of a shift in programming (even if other "music stations" do the
same). They fear they may lose some of the audience, even if they may gain some from Sox
fans who have trouble picking up WEEI within 128.

Yes, there is WBOQ running the Sox but their signal is limited (and in my work building it doesn't quite have enough strength to make it to the workroom floor, though it can come in slightly in break room)

 

[raccoonradio]

Poss of 99.9: I note also there is a 99.9 in Lawrence, a translator for WMSJ Blue Hill ME

 

[reelyreal]

Did they change the rules to make second-adjacents possible? Can't remember. I thought some sort of change was made and it was possible to squeeze more stations in. Didn't the 92.1 out of Newton NH (nr Lawrence) recently move to 102.9? That's a second adjacent to WKLB 102.5 Waltham.

They have an app to move to 102.9, and are asking for a waiver for interference to second-adjacents WKLB and WODS, with a technical showing that any interference that reaches the ground is over uninhabited areas. We'll have to see how that plays out. Interference of a translator in Lawrence compared to a translator within 128 would be a completely different animal. Signal interference in the Boston metro would be much less tolerated than it would be in Lawrence. More money to be made in Boston than Lawrence (shocking, I know!)

 

[w9wi]

Any speculation that involves a *new* translator is more or less meaningless, as the FCC only allows translators that already existed as of (some date in 2009, IIRC) to be used to relay AM stations. Under the current rules, if you get a permit for a new translator tomorrow, you can't use it to relay an AM.

What *has* happened, is to move an existing translator over a significant distance, usually including multiple frequency changes. However, according to Scott Fybush the FCC has become pretty slow to grant more than the first such move, if you need more than one that may not happen.

Looks like the 102.9 will be the best shot. Either that, or see if one can buy 96.3 from WGBH.

_________________________________________________

101.3 was W267AI running 10 watts at 231m. That's a pretty high antenna for a translator, I'd imagine it had a decent signal.

 

[wcozBoston]

There are a few options that would produce good results for the best interests of radio.

Extend the FM band down to 76MHz (Frequencies occupied by Ch 5 and Ch 6). The FCC could set aside the bottom of the new band (76 to 78MHz) for low power signals (less than 250watts). This would also fix AM radio overall by converting to the new FM band restrictive AM (daylight) and directional AMs and offer more clear channels to certain AMs wishing to remain on the AM dial. Everyone would come out winning in this deal. Most digital radios could also be reprogrammed to receive the 76 to 88MHz frequencies as Japan's FM band is from 76 to 92MHz. A market such as Boston could pick up as may as 12 (depending on spacing with stations in adjacent markets) new full power stations, and spacing for low power stations could also be 400kHz. So for example, WILD, which is a restrictive AM daylight could move to 80.1MHz, and WBAL in Baltimore could convert to clear channel status and 1090kHz. 1510 could move to 85.5MHz and simply suspend their AM transmitter all together and so on. Technical persons could put the whole thing together (consisting of what AM stations to convert to FM) with a new table of allocations for each market in the new band and it could be all completed in a handful of years with a overlap period.

Think about this, what is the market share of HD radio? Does it really have any significant market penetration after several years of being on the air? The common lay person does not comprehend what HD radio really is.

One other thing, WRKO could buy WFEX on 92.1MHz and relay WRKO there.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Extend the FM band down to 76MHz (Frequencies occupied by Ch 5 and Ch 6). The FCC could set aside the bottom of the new band (76 to 78MHz) for low power signals (less than 250watts). This would also fix AM radio overall by converting to the new FM band restrictive AM (daylight) and directional AMs and offer more clear channels to certain AMs wishing to remain on the AM dial. Everyone would come out winning in this deal. Most digital radios could also be reprogrammed to receive the 76 to 88MHz frequencies as Japan's FM band is from 76 to 92MHz. A market such as Boston could pick up as may as 12 (depending on spacing with stations in adjacent markets) new full power stations, and spacing for low power stations could also be 400kHz. So for example, WILD, which is a restrictive AM daylight could move to 80.1MHz, and WBAL in Baltimore could convert to clear channel status and 1090kHz. 1510 could move to 85.5MHz and simply suspend their AM transmitter all together and so on. Technical persons could put the whole thing together (consisting of what AM stations to convert to FM) with a new table of allocations for each market in the new band and it could be all completed in a handful of years with a overlap period.

There's a huge disconnect inherent in this plan: the over one billion radios already in the hands of American radio users, most of which cannot be reprogrammed. Let's also remember that, thanks to many surveys of radio users, we now know that Americans don't buy radios in nearly the same numbers they once did. They now tend to buy other things with radios in them (cars, music players, some cell phones, etc.). These are the same two hurdles that, among others, have doomed HD radio (see below).

Think about this, what is the market share of HD radio? Does it really have any significant market penetration after several years of being on the air? The common lay person does not comprehend what HD radio really is.

HD is a non-starter. Between signals that die well before their analog counterparts, HD secondaries that might be heard seven miles from the transmitter on a good day and which have no fall-back when the digital signal dies, deaf radios, promotion that is/was vapid, insulting, sophomoric and devoid of any real information, and gross indifference on the part of the listening public, HD already has a toe-tag on it.

One other thing, WRKO could buy WFEX on 92.1MHz and relay WRKO there.

Since when will a 170-watt FM station in Peterborough NH, whose signal doesn't even cover the northern suburbs of Boston, make any difference at all to WRKO?

 

[reelyreal]

What *has* happened, is to move an existing translator over a significant distance, usually including multiple frequency changes. However, according to Scott Fybush the FCC has become pretty slow to grant more than the first such move, if you need more than one that may not happen.

I assumed that was implied. The last translator filing was in 2003, and some of those apps are STILL hanging. The next translator filing won't happen until after the next LPFM filing, which hasn't even been scheduled yet. Speculation is the LPFM window will happen in 2012.

There are a few options that would produce good results for the best interests of radio.

Extend the FM band down to 76MHz (Frequencies occupied by Ch 5 and Ch 6).

Not gonna happen. The FCC is hungry for spectrum to use for wireless broadband, hence the proposed "spectrum giveback" they're looking for from the TV operators.

 

[raccoonradio]

>>They now tend to buy other things with radios in them

Such as mp3 players with a radio--FM only. Want to hear Sox--well I guess if you're near WBOQ
or WEEI-FM....Celtics? Nope. Pats, Bruins, yup as those are on 98.5

Want to hear WBZ, WWZN, WXKS, or WRKO talk, WJIB's music, etc.? Out of luck. The radio in your mp3 player won't help you (unless for some reason some mp3 players-with-radios have AM...which is doubtful due to antenna requirements...)

 

[JustinT]

One other thing, WRKO could buy WFEX on 92.1MHz and relay WRKO there.

Since when will a 170-watt FM station in Peterborough NH, whose signal doesn't even cover the northern suburbs of Boston, make any difference at all to WRKO?

But on that idea - could Entercom make a bid for a less-than-prime FM to get their content onto FM? Namely, WFNQ? That signal wouldn't give downtown Boston coverage, but it wouldn't be forced off the air like a translator could. Or, could Harvard Radio Broadcasters be encouraged to part with 95.3 for the right price - like Vanderbilt, Rice, and U. of San Francisco did?

 

[DanStrassberg]

Want to hear WBZ, WWZN, WXKS, or WRKO talk, WJIB's music, etc.? Out of luck. The radio in your mp3 player won't help you (unless for some reason some mp3 players-with-radios have AM...which is doubtful due to antenna requirements...)

Except--until it became fashionable to dis the idea--the thin cable between the "Walkman" and its headphones was promoted as being usable as an AM antenna. I don't know whether it was ever true that this cable could be made to serve as a usable AM antenna, but ISTR that it WAS touted as being true until various groups decided they needed a reason to exclude AM from the discussion. Can anyone supply a link to an accurate history of the discussion of AM antennas for handheld devices?

 

[cooper]

as for translator IDs... They need to be done at the TOH, but only three times daily.