• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

FM works. But listen to the interference on AM from HD!

Good link Mike. I get hiss also tuned to the HD AM's frequency on wideband analog radios. They don't even sound good either. WBZ sounded MUCH better in analog before it went HD.
 
Mike Walker said:
This YouTube video is pretty damning of interference caused by AM HD. And note how hissy and noisy the signal is WHEN TUNED TO THE STATION'S CHANNEL, on an analog radio.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrJdhu1enA8

What was the real shocker is how I got sideband pairs daytime, in New Mexico, from EVERY 50 kW IBOC blaster within 1000 miles. I had planned to make a Youtube of the effect this summer, but I have to fly to LA instead of drive this year. But I know what I heard, it was mid day, on different days, not an isolated atmospheric. What was striking was not a trace of the analog - but 660/680, 710/730, 880/900 - sense the pattern? I even faintly got 690, which leads me to believe even WLW was there. Between it and 720 lower sideband hash, it tore up the 710 blowtorch in Amarillo when you got deep into New Mexico. Again - the primary analog signal was completely gone, but the sidebands remained like the Cheshire Cat from Alice in Wonderland. I got pretty excited at the time about the prospect of full digital transmission on AM, it could mean 1000 mile plus daytime range if that was any indication.

Now that I am in Houston, KMKI sidebands are audible on 630 San Antonio. I am sure further out they would be on 610. KMKI analog? Not even there, supplanted by a Spanish language station somewhere. Amazing how persistent those sidebands are!
 
Sometimes FM doesn't work. I'm in Dover, DE and used to be able to listen to 92.7 WGMD from Rehoboth Beach even though 92.9 from Smyrna sometimes stepped on it. :-\

Now with 92.9 in HD 92.7 is nothing but static. :mad:
 
Mike Walker said:
This YouTube video is pretty damning of interference caused by AM HD. And note how hissy and noisy the signal is WHEN TUNED TO THE STATION'S CHANNEL, on an analog radio.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrJdhu1enA8

Thank you for posting this Mike. I have the exact same experience listening to WLS (a local 50 kw for me) on my Superadio III. I can immediately tell if the hissmaker is off because it sounds almost as good as an FM with no IBOC. With the exciter on, I get a muddled hiss in the background to go with the flat audio from the narrowed bandwidth.

Many HD proponents have scoffed at my comments in the past, implying either that I'm being so picky that no normal listener would notice or infer that I was using a type of radio that nobody else uses. Now we can see that my protestations are valid.
 
FM HD works? It sounds like an internet stream (when you can hear it), it causes the analog to have to be delayed by 7 seconds creating nothing but headaches for remotes, traffic reports, or anything else that has to be done in real time from off site, it adds expense to the air chain so anyone on the air live can have processed audio in their headphones, it costs a fortune to install, and comes with ongoing fees for the "privaledge" of using it, it provides no return on investment, and the equipment tends to lock up or otherwise fail on a regular basis. Oh, and no one cares except the other local engineers that splurged on a cheap table top radio that also sounds like doggy excrement. Did I miss anything?
 
RadeoEngineer said:
FM HD works? It sounds like an internet stream (when you can hear it), it causes the analog to have to be delayed by 7 seconds creating nothing but headaches for remotes, traffic reports, or anything else that has to be done in real time from off site, it adds expense to the air chain so anyone on the air live can have processed audio in their headphones, it costs a fortune to install, and comes with ongoing fees for the "privaledge" of using it, it provides no return on investment, and the equipment tends to lock up or otherwise fail on a regular basis. Oh, and no one cares except the other local engineers that splurged on a cheap table top radio that also sounds like doggy excrement. Did I miss anything?

Definately not AM HD either! HD Radio has to go the way of the dinosaur in its present incarnation. The public has little to no interest in it. Unless something is done to vastly improve it - like possibly allocating dedicated frequencies for a 100% digital signal and allowing those broadcasters who wish to simulcast for a few years similar to when the X-band (1610-1700 kHz) was started, there seems to be no way that reception will be reliable over an acceptable geographic area at the current power levels. I have no idea where the FCC would put Digital FM stations, possibly 76-88 MHz, though that part of the spectrum is prone to Eskip and Tropo, and unfortunately, above 108 MHz are aeronautical frequencies, and that's probably never going to be reallocated since those frequencies are used internationally.

Broadcasters may need to get used to the idea that if they want to go digital, they may have to get on a common transmitter that works like digital cell phones and satellite radio - each station has a certain time slot frame in the digital stream, and these are separated at the receiver. That is much more efficient than each station having its own equipment.

Similarly, I'm reading that several HDTV stations have applied for increased power since their signals are not covering the same area their analog signal did previously. What worked in the lab and perhaps some field testing are not panning out in the real world...
 
FM works.

Unfortunately FM HD Radio doesn't, particularly in the most populated areas of the nation where FM stations are lower powered and tightly spaced.

The public has virtually no interest in HD Radio, and have a plethora of other better choices with better fidelity and that actually work reliably, without replacing all their radios.

So who needs HD Radio?

Only some few broadcasters who have fooled themselves into thinking HD Radio is "the wave of the future".
 
SUPERCASTER said:
Unfortunately FM HD Radio doesn't, particularly in the most populated areas of the nation where FM stations are lower powered and tightly spaced.

I've had it solid as a rock 70 miles from the towers. Other people have reported reliable 84 mile HD lock. It works - and in my opinion no power increase is needed or justified.

The reports from the East coast are from people who have marginal analog reception at best, and hope HD is a panacea for their reception problems. It won't be - at any power level.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
SUPERCASTER said:
Unfortunately FM HD Radio doesn't, particularly in the most populated areas of the nation where FM stations are lower powered and tightly spaced.

I've had it solid as a rock 70 miles from the towers. Other people have reported reliable 84 mile HD lock. It works - and in my opinion no power increase is needed or justified.

The reports from the East coast are from people who have marginal analog reception at best, and hope HD is a panacea for their reception problems. It won't be - at any power level.

I beg to differ about getting HD lock so solidly. I don't know what kind of super-duper HD equipment you've got, but I have a great deal of difficulty getting HD-2's from Chicago stations that are only 20 to 25 air miles from me. These stations are quite strong in analog - nothing marginal about them. Yet, after noodling around with the antenna for 15 minutes, the best I can do in HD is to pick up HD lock on less than half of them. And even those bounce in and out on occasion.

Yeah, you live in Texas with super, mega powered 100 kw blowtorches that broadcast from 1,000 foot tall towers over relatively level ground. That's what is known as a "best case scenario." Where I live is probably very typical. A midwestern suburb that's 20 to 30 miles from the transmitter site where analog reception is strong and plentiful, yet HD is problematic.

And, hilly areas like Pittsburgh or smaller markets are more like a "worst case scenario."

Where I respectfully disagree with you is that somehow it's only people in marginal "east coast" markets who have issues. Nonsense. I'd answer that with a comment that the only people I hear from who get consistent 60+ mile FM lock are in Texas, near Houston or DFW. My results, sadly for HD, are typical. I'd venture that yours are not.

However, I do agree with you that HD is no panacea for anyone's reception issues.
 
BRNout said:
I beg to differ about getting HD lock so solidly. I don't know what kind of super-duper HD equipment you've got, but I have a great deal of difficulty getting HD-2's from Chicago stations that are only 20 to 25 air miles from me. These stations are quite strong in analog - nothing marginal about them. Yet, after noodling around with the antenna for 15 minutes, the best I can do in HD is to pick up HD lock on less than half of them. And even those bounce in and out on occasion.

Yeah, you live in Texas with super, mega powered 100 kw blowtorches that broadcast from 1,000 foot tall towers over relatively level ground. That's what is known as a "best case scenario." Where I live is probably very typical. A midwestern suburb that's 20 to 30 miles from the transmitter site where analog reception is strong and plentiful, yet HD is problematic.

And, hilly areas like Pittsburgh or smaller markets are more like a "worst case scenario."

Where I respectfully disagree with you is that somehow it's only people in marginal "east coast" markets who have issues. Nonsense. I'd answer that with a comment that the only people I hear from who get consistent 60+ mile FM lock are in Texas, near Houston or DFW. My results, sadly for HD, are typical. I'd venture that yours are not.

However, I do agree with you that HD is no panacea for anyone's reception issues.

Equipment is an off the shelf Sangean HDT-1X. Antenna was a dipole one meter off the ground, and stretched out properly. More recently added a Sony XDR-F1HD. I think in spite of you thinking that analog reception is great at your location, if you really analyzed it carefully you would have signal strength weaker than you think, possibly multipath. Things that are barely audible on an analog tuner but cause HD drop out. Since it is all or nothing for HD, deficient signals are much more apparent in HD.

Granted, those same tuners are capable of, and routinely do 200 mile analog reception with a dipole, and 300+ miles with an outdoor antenna. I don't have a number for HD with an outdoor antenna, but it may be well over 100 miles if not 150. It is nobody's fault if someone happens to live in a hilly area, in an area with too many stations packed together with lower towers and ERP. Certainly those conditions do not justify the destruction of the FM band the way the AM band has been destroyed - with an ill-advised 10 dB increase in power. All that will do is raise the noise floor without appreciably increasing the range. Fades and weak signals are in the range of several decades, not just one decade.

In spite of what you think with full class-C and 2000 foot towers, listeners in the approach path of airports in Houston and Dallas cannot get HD only a few miles from the towers in Dallas and about 20 in Houston. Why? Because the signal variations when a plane go overhead can be six decades in power. Given long lock times, a mere one decade of power increase would be useless in that scenario.

A similar scenario exists in cars - when you are in the fringes signal variations are several decades, from clear to completely gone in seconds. Given HD lock times, a mere one decade power increase is useless for car reception as well.

In offices, I've personally measured 10 dB signal loss every 6 to 7 feet from the window. So a 10 dB power increase is less than one shell of office cubicles. Useless.

The only possible instance where a power increase on FM might do some good is a home environment, but I can do 10 dB increase in received signal just by using the dipole properly, or moving it a few feet one side or the other. Power increase? Only compensating for fools that crumple up the dipole on the floor? PLEASE! Give me (and the FM band) a break. USELESS destruction of the band just so you don't have to instruct people how to receive FM correctly and so some iBiquity folks don't lose their shirts when their stock tanks.

The destruction of the AM band is hardly an issue. But FM is the money maker. Screw it up, and you drive even more people to streaming, iPods, and other forms of entertainment. We need better, clearer analog reception on both bands. Not white noise generators for 99.9% of listeners without HD radios.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
The destruction of the AM band is hardly an issue. But FM is the money maker. Screw it up, and you drive even more people to streaming, iPods, and other forms of entertainment. We need better, clearer analog reception on both bands. Not white noise generators for 99.9% of listeners without HD radios.

I know you probably didn't mean it the way it sounded but I happen to like the AM band and think what IBOC is doing to it is criminal, it's destroying it. Instead of fighting the FM iBOC increase we need to be fighting IBOC period, it's a useless mess on both FM and AM and the little gains that it gives some stations are ridiculous compared to what it's doing to the majority of both the bands. It's a divisive thing and the last thing radio needs right now is to be divided into two camps.
 
We all know about the interference from .53 to 1.7Mhz caused by this garbage....... No point really in starting a thread about it..

Good video though!
 
The reports from the East coast are from people who have marginal analog reception at best, and hope HD is a panacea for their reception problems. It won't be - at any power level.

I guess radio signals travel differently on the West Coast? They didn't tell me that in my ARRL Handbook. I'll write them today.

Nonsense. I had a Boston Acoustic HD radio that had damn nice analog, but could not pick up either of 2 50kw AM HD signals from 20-30 miles away, and no FM at all, even 18 miles away with external antenna. I gave the radio to my brother in Limerick PA. You can SEE the towers of a dozen stations at the nearby Roxborough (Phila) Tower Farm. Nada, not a single HD AM or FM. And these are not marginal signals, as they pin the meter on his 1973 Marantz 2270 with crystal clear power.

There a saying that ex smokers and drinkers use: One is too many and a thousand is not enough. I assert the same for power for IBOC. It would need an abandonment of analog, just as TV did.
 
Well I just posted this in the Boston area top 20 market section but figured I'd repost it here with a few added things (mileages etc.):

I Just did HD scans on both AM and FM with my Sony XDR-F1HD with stock antennas set up correctly from Millbury, MA at right about noontime. Nada on AM, a close one is 5KW WTAG AM, about 8 miles from here which puts in a monster signal here along with it's monster IBOC hashbags) and only WSRS HD-1 and HD-2 came in (Paxton transmitter location I believe, probably 8-10 miles from here). I have the tuner going through a Marantz 2385 receiver with double large Advents so I can easily compare the two modes. WSRS sounds much better in analog than it does in HD, more highs and bottom and clearer believe it or not and it is locked.
I have never received WBCN in HD although I've tried. It does come in here fine in analog however as do most Boston FM's. Does WICN Worcester broadcast in HD as ibiquity says on their website? if it does I've never received that either and it also comes in very good at this location in analog as would be expected.
 
If its on YouTube it must be true huh? I have no problems with interference with Hybrid Digital AM stations. Get your self an external AM Loop antenna. I have no problems with FM or AM Hybrid Digital. Get yourself better antennas.
 
willcail said:
I have no problems with FM or AM Hybrid Digital. Get yourself better antennas.

I don't believe that is a very realistic point of view. You and I might do it because we are radio geeks and enjoy the challenge. Most "normal" people don't even know what an antenna is or why you need it. Even if they understand, it is unlikely they going to be motivated to string a wire around their back yard or add an active loop antenna that is as big as or bigger than the radio they are connecting it to. For years (At least since the end of WW-II) they have been used to taking a radio out of the box, plugging it in (or inserting batteries) and turning it on. It has always worked well enough for most people with the internal ferrite bar or loop antenna. It is unlikely they will change their expectation level to get AM stations in HD. There are simply too many other entertainment choices that are easier.

Add to that, the HD Alliance has done absolutely nothing to educate the public about the system’s limitations, and you have a real formula for disaster. At least with HDTV, there was a huge campaign to educate the public about needing an antenna, converter box and/or new TV. That kind of information has been missing in the HD Radio camp.

My observation is that most people think they are getting HD on their regular analog radio, especially if it happens to be RDS enabled. The one feature they seem to notice is song title information, which many people assume is what HD is all about. At least, the current HD campaign says "If you don't have an HD radio, you aren't listening to HD Radio." That is a start.
 
willcail said:
If its on YouTube it must be true huh? I have no problems with interference with Hybrid Digital AM stations. Get your self an external AM Loop antenna. I have no problems with FM or AM Hybrid Digital. Get yourself better antennas.

What, everyone needs an external wire MW antenna to pick up HD? If that's the case (and I suspect it is) then let's reduce our collective carbon footprint by pulling the plug on IBOC on the AM band. Right now. Because no one aside from a dxer will ever spend any time doing this.

People today want to bring home their new gadget, plug it in and have it work. HD Radio doesn't generally fit that bill.
 
BRNout said:
willcail said:
If its on YouTube it must be true huh? I have no problems with interference with Hybrid Digital AM stations. Get your self an external AM Loop antenna. I have no problems with FM or AM Hybrid Digital. Get yourself better antennas.

What, everyone needs an external wire MW antenna to pick up HD? If that's the case (and I suspect it is) then let's reduce our collective carbon footprint by pulling the plug on IBOC on the AM band. Right now. Because no one aside from a dxer will ever spend any time doing this.

People today want to bring home their new gadget, plug it in and have it work. HD Radio doesn't generally fit that bill.

I've posted this 100 times but the ONLY way I've ever gotten any AM HD station on my Sony XDR-F1HD was to use a tunable and amplified C Crane twin coil Ferrite antenna which cost more than the tuner did. I got just one: WBZ with it's glorious artificial highs that sound like nails on a chalk board complete with drop outs galore.
 
KB1OKL said:
I've posted this 100 times but the ONLY way I've ever gotten any AM HD station on my Sony XDR-F1HD was to use a tunable and amplified C Crane twin coil Ferrite antenna which cost more than the tuner did. I got just one: WBZ with it's glorious artificial highs that sound like nails on a chalk board complete with drop outs galore.

I have to use a three foot box loop to get some of the local HD AMs in Houston. I never got KAAM in HD when I lived in Dallas, even though I was less than 10 miles from the tower. Quite a difference from the 290 mile range they had in stereo with C-Quam!
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom