FM works. But listen to the interference on AM from HD!

[Play Freebird]

I wouldn't be so sure "the future of radio is digital," Mike (this is a constant new talking point chanted by iBiquity, not that I'm tarring you with THAT brush.)

There have been a lot of concerns raised lately about HDTV, with many stations scrambling to implement gigantic, and costly, power increases. Instances abound of unacceptable freezing, pixellating and poorer-than-expected coverage with digital.

Bob Struble never stops trying to strike fear of analog into the hearts of radio people, as we read again in his latest commentary:

http://www.ibiquity.com/about_us/bobs_column_thoughts_on_radios_digital_future

So let me get this straight. If "digital" is so important to the future of radio, why are we being forced to accept such a defective system as AM IBOC? We really need to concentrate on identifying the most serious problems and how best to fix them, instead of making the problems worse.

 

[Mike Walker]

Nobody's "forced" to accept AM IBOC. In truth, the "problem" seems to be fixing itself...with stations cutting back on AM HD for extended periods, or completely. Is the technology (AM HD) actually growing? Are there still many new stations coming on? I'm not aware of any new AM HD stations around here in a LONG time.

 

[BRNout]

That column reads like a brainless drive toward a goal that benefits few (including the author) but leaves most at a disadvantage. Digital, digital, digital! Everything must be digital! It's better, Better, BETTER!!! Why? Better audio? Theoretically, but in real world use....no, not really. More capabilities? So far it's not impressive. Itunes tagging? OK, but not that big of a deal. Of his three stated advantages, really only the one about having more programming options ("choices") seems to be true. Even that one is comprised because to do it you have a limited bandwidth with which to feed the alternate channels. So, they sound like crap.

Again, we do just fine with analog which - for most people - still sounds great. As for AM, they should just shut the IBOC system off. It mucks up the band and there's no consumer demand for it. AM has certain characteristics, such as the ability to travel far via groundwave under certain conditions and skywave propagation, that can be very helpful at times. IBOC's tendencies, when combined with those, degrades analog while doing nothing to help decode HD more than 10 miles from the tx site. For AM, just forget it.

Lastly, I notice that Bob's fiat, er, column has no place to leave comments. I wonder why that would be. Could it be because people like him have an agenda and are no more interested in what people think than Pravda was in 1965? Same sort of agenda-driven propaganda, that's for sure. Makes you wonder.... :

 

[Play Freebird]

Nobody's "forced" to accept AM IBOC. In truth, the "problem" seems to be fixing itself...with stations cutting back on AM HD for extended periods, or completely. Is the technology (AM HD) actually growing? Are there still many new stations coming on? I'm not aware of any new AM HD stations around here in a LONG time.

So if you hold an AM license and you want to broadcast a digital signal over the air, what are the alternatives? AFAIK, the only legal option in the US is IBOC, unless you have a sister FM IBOC station (or make an LMA deal) and simulcast on one of the multicast channels, or make similar arrangements to use a DTV channel. Struble claims we must all go digital sooner or later, or we're toast. So let's have a system that actually works.

The fact remains that the most significant problem faced by AM broadcasters (particularly stations that must sharply reduce power at night and strict daytimers) isn't solved at all by IBOC.

 

[BRNout]

Struble claims we must all go digital sooner or later, or we're toast.

Why? Who says he's right about that?

I see absolutely no reason why this must be so. Aside from financing Bob's retirement and beach house in the Hamptons.

 

[Play Freebird]

Struble claims we must all go digital sooner or later, or we're toast.

Why? Who says he's right about that?

I see absolutely no reason why this must be so. Aside from financing Bob's retirement and beach house in the Hamptons.

If the FAA decided to adopt IBOC for air traffic control (adding adjacent-channel digital to existing AM signals), I wonder if Bob Struble would continue to fly.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

The future of radio IS digital: streaming.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Nobody's "forced" to accept AM IBOC.

News flash, Mike: Bob Savage, one of the most vehement anti-HD people around, would disagree with you. He is most certainly being "forced" to accept AM IBOC...from over 300 miles away...and that's the problem. If you own an AM, you're certainly free to not spend the money on HD, but if your neighbor on the AM dial lights it up, it gets dropped in your lap (and the laps of whatever listeners you have left who can stand the noise it makes) whether you like it or not.

It's way past time to put this ailing dog out of its...and our...misery.

 

[stormy01]

The future of radio IS digital: streaming.

Agreed - there is certainly more bandwidth available on the internet for radio to sound decent than the 21 MHz of AM & FM.
"But...but...but...we have to pay for it then" - Awww, too bad.

 

[bigtom101]

(2) I have documented 70 mile HD reception on FM with nothing more than a dipole. Power increase - Why?! Another listener has 84 miles with nothing more than a dipole. HD alliance has claimed poor coverage.

Mazel tov on getting those stations in HD. Come here to the northeast and that goes out the window, as our stations are only Class B's or less - and HD coverage on a class A is limited to 15 to 20 miles depending on the power/antenna height and where it was shoehorned in. For a class B, it seems 40 miles of HD coverage max, at least in my neck of the woods. 30 to 35 is more realistic depending again on where it was shoehorned in. Now I took a trip out to Kansas City a few weeks ago, and brought my Accurian HD radio with me, and a dipole, for some comparason. With the dipole strewn across the floor, I got all of the Kansas City stations in HD 35 or so miles out from KC. So for the Class A & B stations in the Northeast, the power boost is needed, especially for portable & mobile radios. Not so much when you have 100kw @ 1100 feet to mess around with.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

The future of radio IS digital: streaming.

Agreed - there is certainly more bandwidth available on the internet for radio to sound decent than the 21 MHz of AM & FM.
"But...but...but...we have to pay for it then" - Awww, too bad.

I already have my computer and internet connection for research, personal, business communication, and entertainment.
Hundreds of thousands of internet streaming stations from all over the world and podcasts are a free bonus.
What a deal!

HD Radio isn't free. You have to buy special equipment (the HD radio) and put up with lower analog fidelity, recieving fewer analog stations, fiddleing with antennas, additional jamming, noise and interference on the AM and FM bands. With HD radio's limited range, intermittent reception, inefficient power consumption (especially for HD radio transmission) overall HD radio is a big net loss.

 

[calstymes]

Mike Walker deftly summed it all up in just one sentence:

But if we can get satellite reception to work reliably in a moving car, we can sure as hell get our local radio stations reliably and DIGITALLY.

By golly we sure can, Mike! And believe it or not, even an excellent digital system for AM was invented! ibiQUITy paid an awful lot of money to keep it OFF the market and then spent millions of dollars trying to independently duplicate this work. They couldn't. Too bad for us, eh?

More and more people who are much brighter than I am are finally figuring out what really happened here and getting the word out. It is awfully gratifying to see that happening. Keep following the money, folks. Eventually the truth will be told, more than likely, when this awful system is finally abandoned by even the most loyal and well-to-do of current supporters.

 

[Savage]

Unfortunately I don't think actual abandonment will ever happen....but look for de facto abandonment (a la C-QUAM) as more and more operators realize HD is dead in the water. I think we're starting to see it. Hence the desperate push for the digital power increase. Equipment sales engineers tell me they haven't sold anything HD in over a year.

The rapid downhill slide will gather momentum when some of the higher-profile HD perpetrators get fired or are retired out by radio companies under continuing financial pressures. Worst among these offenders are CBS and Greater Media. Clear Channel, flirting as it is with default and bankruptcy, has far bigger fish to fry than worrying about HD. At Citadel, at least as far as IBOC goes, cooler heads have always prevailed.

 

[calstymes]

Savage proclaimed:

Worst among these offenders are CBS and Greater Media.

The folks at those companies do seem to be all caught up in this. Maybe it is the amount of money they have invested in it or in CBS's case, the fact that it was an iBiquity partner from early on.

That Mel Karmazin fellow was one crafty guy, but I think Bob Struble has him beat in the crafty department!

 

[KB1OKL]

Savage proclaimed:

Worst among these offenders are CBS and Greater Media.

but I think Bob Struble has him beat in the crafty department!

This way to the Egress.

 

[XavierRenegade]

(2) I have documented 70 mile HD reception on FM with nothing more than a dipole. Power increase - Why?! Another listener has 84 miles with nothing more than a dipole. HD alliance has claimed poor coverage.

Mazel tov on getting those stations in HD. Come here to the northeast and that goes out the window, as our stations are only Class B's or less - and HD coverage on a class A is limited to 15 to 20 miles depending on the power/antenna height and where it was shoehorned in. For a class B, it seems 40 miles of HD coverage max, at least in my neck of the woods. 30 to 35 is more realistic depending again on where it was shoehorned in. Now I took a trip out to Kansas City a few weeks ago, and brought my Accurian HD radio with me, and a dipole, for some comparason. With the dipole strewn across the floor, I got all of the Kansas City stations in HD 35 or so miles out from KC. So for the Class A & B stations in the Northeast, the power boost is needed, especially for portable & mobile radios. Not so much when you have 100kw @ 1100 feet to mess around with.

I live in the Los Angeles area and wonder. What is the coverage of the HD signal for the different stations. You talk about Kansas City but I wonder about the Los Angeles and how big are the HD signals in our area.

 

[K6JHU]

In my car in the mid-west (flat terrain) the analog and the digital were about equal. When I lost the digital, generally the analog was not listenable.

In LA, I live about 35 miles from the transmitters (Mt. Wilson to OC). A lot has to do with weather in LA. When it was cool I would get lock on the digital and it would stay locked. At my distance analog is always listenable. Now that it is getting warmer I get 1 second drops about evey 10 minutes driving around. Some HD are a better than others. KRTH is a solid lock. KKGO never locks (the HD light flashes but it never locks).

I have seen this in other places (my classic example is Sioux Falls where I was never able to lock onto any of the HD) and it seems to be the way the HD is adjusted more than anything else. It is like the early days of AM stereo. It takes a while to get it right.

 

[KB1OKL]

Or more likely it is the terrain.

 

[XavierRenegade]

In my car in the mid-west (flat terrain) the analog and the digital were about equal. When I lost the digital, generally the analog was not listenable.

In LA, I live about 35 miles from the transmitters (Mt. Wilson to OC). A lot has to do with weather in LA. When it was cool I would get lock on the digital and it would stay locked. At my distance analog is always listenable. Now that it is getting warmer I get 1 second drops about evey 10 minutes driving around. Some HD are a better than others. KRTH is a solid lock. KKGO never locks (the HD light flashes but it never locks).

I have seen this in other places (my classic example is Sioux Falls where I was never able to lock onto any of the HD) and it seems to be the way the HD is adjusted more than anything else. It is like the early days of AM stereo. It takes a while to get it right.

What about 98.7 KYSR and 104.3 KBIG. KYSR broadcasts at 75,000 Watts and KBIG at 65,000 Watts. These are the biggest FM stations in the Los Angeles Area. I go to the radio locator website. KBIG which is 65,000 Watts has a coverage area in which the fringe area includes San Diego, Palm Springs and near Bakersfield. That is a large coverage area.

KYSR is listed as about 28 miles from where we live. KROQ is 35 miles. Most of the big stations all are 45 Miles away such as KISS, KBIG, KOST, KRTH, etc. I was interested how the HD signal performs for the big stations in Los Angeles. I though about getting that Insignia HD radio and wondered how well it would receive these stations HD signals from where I live or near where I live.

 

[K6JHU]

I use a Radio Shack 'waa surplus' HD radio in the house on the second floor. The antenna is indooors and is the folded dipole that came with the radio mounted (errr... draped) over the bookcase. I have tuned the entire band but can only really comment on the HD stations I spend time listening to. With the exception of KKGO, everything that is supposed to be in HD from the Mt Wilson/Mt Harvard site is in HD and gets a lock (at 35+ miles). As near as I can tell all the HD-2 and HD-3 channels are there but I have not verified the programming.

What I have difficulty with is some of the low antenna/low power stations - e.g. 103.1, (which I have difficulty even in analog). So I can't speak for those at my location.

What is a surprise is the number of AM stations making the transition to HD-2/3. They include KABC, KFWB, and KNX. I will not count 1260 (see my comment above). I also see that KFRG is an HD-2 station. I wonder whether that makes them an LA market station