Is anyone using the FMExtra system? I've heard claims that it is at least equal to IBOC's coverage and if FCC rules were loosened to allow higher SCA injection, that the coverage would far exceed IBOC. And most importantly, it reportedly causes zero adjacent channel interference. Is there anyone actually using this? Is there a catch...aside from no radios to hear it?
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FMExtra
- Thread starter BobOnTheJob
- Start date
Bob: You might get in touch with 102.9 WBUZ in Nashville. They've been running FMeXtra (or however they capitalize it) for most of this year.
I haven't heard near the complaints about FMeXtra, but it isn't set up at nearly the number of stations.
I haven't heard near the complaints about FMeXtra, but it isn't set up at nearly the number of stations.
BobOnTheJob said:
I have been involved with one FM Extra install, and in a nutshell, it sounds GREAT and has very good range. This particular install is on a directional class A. The FM Extra is used to program another FM whose studios are about 48 air miles from that transmitter. With an eight element beam at 20 feet, the FM Extra signal comes in quite well. The receive location is at a 1 Kw AM site and we found and eliminated all the AM RFI from the radio by properly grounding it. They run an AAC+ stereo signal and an AAC+ mono signal on the FM Extra. Both sound REAL GOOD! The AAC mono signal is dropped off at a site that has four class B and B1 FMs and a ton of other stuff. It is used to feed the audio side of an LPTV on channel 6 (87.7 FM). That signal also sounds GOOD! I have also heard these channels in a moving car with a 19 inch whip antenna on its roof and the coverage (from that class A) is FAR better then any IBOC signal would be!
FM Extra kicks IBOC's lamaa's ass!
IBOC should GO AWAY and be replaced by FM Extra!
BobOnTheJob said:
FMeXtra doesn't cause adjacent channel interference by design. Unlike IBOC that uses digital sidebands around FM carrier, FMeXtra fits entirely into existing FM multiplex... It's second advantage is that it uses MPEG standards based HE-AAC codec (aka aacPlus), unlike IBOC that uses propriety HDC codec that supposedly doesn't sound quite as good as HE-AAC.
From the moment I've heard about FXeXtra concept a few years ago, I wondered why they didn't market it as a digital radio alternative to IBOC instead of just as a "digital SCA". I guess the answer is obvious (money?) but still, it's such a good alternative to IBOC that I believe it deserves to be allowed to compete directly with IBOC (and other DAB systems).
Regards,
Goran Tomas
Non-Proprietary should mean no licensing fees to boot! Right? Now...the $64,000 question, how do we get this pony in the race? Unless I'm missing something, this should have cleaned IBOC's clock, unless it was introduced too late in the process...
FM SCA in Indianapolis has MANY more radios than IBOC. Catholic Radio has at least 1000 radios out there.
Problem with FM Extra is they developed the idea then waited too long to get radios out there.
The radios are only desktop. Where's all the radio listening? In cars?
The good part of this is 10 grand for an install, no 25k rights fee to broadcast it. The bad aspect is radios and availability. No one will pay 200 or more for a radio.
SCA radios run between 20 and 40 dollars but there still isn't a good sca car radio.
Too many broadcasters have gotten in bed with IBOC I am afraid. The technology is so bad we can hope it dies a death quicker than say AM Stereo that had great potential. (And sounded great).
Problem with FM Extra is they developed the idea then waited too long to get radios out there.
The radios are only desktop. Where's all the radio listening? In cars?
The good part of this is 10 grand for an install, no 25k rights fee to broadcast it. The bad aspect is radios and availability. No one will pay 200 or more for a radio.
SCA radios run between 20 and 40 dollars but there still isn't a good sca car radio.
Too many broadcasters have gotten in bed with IBOC I am afraid. The technology is so bad we can hope it dies a death quicker than say AM Stereo that had great potential. (And sounded great).
FMextra has far greater possibilities for delivering content with your signal than IBOC.
Using it as an STL is one example of this. Another example would be to create custom "channels" for stores or chains in your area.
There are a lot of untapped possibilities with FMextra. Anyone reading this should take a minute to learn about it.
The only downfall: lack of radios...but think outside the BOX...what could you do with it?
The cost is very reasonable.
Using it as an STL is one example of this. Another example would be to create custom "channels" for stores or chains in your area.
There are a lot of untapped possibilities with FMextra. Anyone reading this should take a minute to learn about it.
The only downfall: lack of radios...but think outside the BOX...what could you do with it?
The cost is very reasonable.
Sgeirk said:
Yes, and YOU OWN IT! No recurring licensing fees, no difficult set up, No new transmitter, no proprietary codecs, etc. Just put it in the rack and play. The installation takes less than 30 minutes, assuming you have an audio signal to feed it. Other than a lack of radios, there is not much to dislike.
M
mattthepm
Guest
PTBoardOp94 said:
One of 102.9's FMeXtra channels is simulcasting Radio Free Nashville, WRFN-LP, an LPFM based out of west Nashville. This increases the potential coverage of WRFN substantially.
Again though, it's a matter of getting the receivers out there in the marketplace.
DRE's 'Aruba' receiver is an OK little receiver, but it is a bit pricey.
Could existing HD radios be updated with a firmware upgrade to allow for FMeXtra reception?
-mattthepm
Not to start another IBOC war, but one of the drawbacks of IBOC is lack of a WOW!! 
factor (similar to HDTV vs NTSC TV) over a good FM signal. My business partner is very non-technical, background from sales and on-air in a large market. After hearing all the hype, he was gung-ho on IBOC until he listened to an off-air demo. Couldn't tell the difference between digital and the main channel..so his comment was why spend all the money for such a minor improvement?
I suspect the same problem with FM extra as a replacement for the main channel analog signal. But I don't think the developers ever had that in mind. They saw it as a replacement for often-noisy and quite finicky analog SCA.
And that is the true value of the product for those with an imagination to come up with ways to make money with their subsidiary channels.
factor (similar to HDTV vs NTSC TV) over a good FM signal. My business partner is very non-technical, background from sales and on-air in a large market. After hearing all the hype, he was gung-ho on IBOC until he listened to an off-air demo. Couldn't tell the difference between digital and the main channel..so his comment was why spend all the money for such a minor improvement?I suspect the same problem with FM extra as a replacement for the main channel analog signal. But I don't think the developers ever had that in mind. They saw it as a replacement for often-noisy and quite finicky analog SCA.
And that is the true value of the product for those with an imagination to come up with ways to make money with their subsidiary channels.
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2NDGENRADIO
Guest
If you act, there will be Digital Multicasting for the rest of us. Because digital radios are software driven, they can easily incorporate the common – standard streaming schemes in worldwide use. Technology exists which can deliver digital multicasting with a coverage area much larger than HDR which is good news for class A fm’s. At least one technology requires 90% less investment in new equipment than HDR which is good for small and medium market operators. Receivers enabled with AAC data streams( like in the Apple Ipod and Adobe Flash Player) or MP3 (as in MP3 player) would be easier for consumers to embrace. Broadcasters will be diminished if receivers are not standardized with these capabilities while computers remain capable. Small market operators will have to unite and press this on their own since the NAB is an advocate for the HDR Alliance offering. NAB has taken measures to prevent other digital multicasting methods from co- existing with HDR.
A while back I had posted some questions about Fmextra and someone emailed me a link to a huge *wav file clip of a smooth jazz station broken up into regular FM , full bitrate hybrid iboc, full bitrate FMextra. Im not a iboc basher but the Fmextra clip won in audio quality hands down. No high frequency artifacts like on iboc. I was wowed considering the FMextra was being encoded OTA much lower than the iboc stream (44kFMX vs 64kIboc if I recall). I also remeber reading if a station goes mono it can fit 4 decent stereo FMX streams at 32k each, talk about instant station cluster. Its ashamed this isnt marketed as a companion to Iboc.
It stands to reason that with FCC accommodation, FMExtra (forgive me if I buthchered the caps) could be traded for analog coverage as receiver saturation dictated. As is, I believe that 20% SCA injection is permissible with a total modulation increase to 110% to partially compensate for the analog loudness loss. If allowed, a station could decide that 75% analog modulation would still reach it's bread & butter audience acceptably and that 25% could be added to the 20% already allowed for SCA use. At that point, you're providing a very robust FMExtra stream while maintaining a fully profitable analog stereo signal. Dropping the stereo, as pointed out above, would allow for more individual channels. All of this while causing no more interference than a current SCA operation does. If my reasoning is correct, the "big money" people who are behind this whole IBOC sham should be declared unfit to hold a broadcast license...for what they have done is far from being in the public interest. I just fix these stations when they break, but if I owned one, I'd drop the reported 10 grand on FMExtra just to establish the concept in this part of the country. A lot of positive stuff has been said here...maybe we're onto something.Fieldtech1 said:
L
Lyle Henry
Guest
LAguy just told me of this thread. I'm the dude who enjoys driving around the country demoing and installing FMeXtra, besides doing some consulting to the developers, Digital Radio Express in Milpitas, CA. So I may be able to answer some of your questions.
First, I'd appreciate getting a copy or link to that jazz comparison of FM, IBOC, and FMeXtra mentioned by Fieldtech1.
2nd, I'll be demoing FMeXtra at the Translantech booth at NAB again this year. They sell the very nice Ariane Sequel digital audio processors which work great ahead of FMeXtra or other digital streams.
3rd, adding digital SCAs does not seem to require reducing main channel modulation at all, however a peak-weighted modulation monitor such as the Belar Wizard must be used. There are wispy peaks 3 times as high as the RMS level of the FMeXtra signal. Peak weighting is more effective on stereo stations than mono. The more different components making up the modulation, the more narrow peaks are created which can be ignored by the weighting. FCC only counts a peak if it 1 millisecond or more. I've added FMeXta to dozens of stations now, and if their modulation is tight at 100%, FMeXtra at 20% does not normally exceed 110%.
A local Japanese group recently bought an FMeXtra encoder and a few radios. I put it on KSCA 101.9 here in Los Angeles. They have been on 92 kHz analog for some years and now FMeXtra is on 67 kHz broken up into three channels using AMRWB+ encoding at 7.6, 7.6, & 6.8 kb/s. It's much better than I ever expected at those low bit rates and they're satisfied with it. They did a lot of listening and I had urged them not to go below 10.4 kb/s and stick with two channels. Anyway, the first FMeXtra channel (x1) duplicates the analog on 92, then they have music on x2, and Taiwanese programming on x3.
The FMeXtra signal, though it is at only 10% injection, goes a little further than KSCA's IBOC. I use a Directed Electronics Car Kit HD tuner and a DRE Aruba for FMeXtra in my Prius. 30" mag-mount whip in the middle of the roof comes down to a splitter which feeds both radios equal signals. I haven't tried to measure the relative sensitivity of the two radios, however.
That test which ran on KLVE 107.5 here in LA last summer is not on now, but caused no problems and its presence was unnoticeable. KLVE and KSCA are both Univision stations. The system ran without a hitch for over 4 months. Even my CD player didn't die running in replay 24/7 all that time.
First, I'd appreciate getting a copy or link to that jazz comparison of FM, IBOC, and FMeXtra mentioned by Fieldtech1.
2nd, I'll be demoing FMeXtra at the Translantech booth at NAB again this year. They sell the very nice Ariane Sequel digital audio processors which work great ahead of FMeXtra or other digital streams.
3rd, adding digital SCAs does not seem to require reducing main channel modulation at all, however a peak-weighted modulation monitor such as the Belar Wizard must be used. There are wispy peaks 3 times as high as the RMS level of the FMeXtra signal. Peak weighting is more effective on stereo stations than mono. The more different components making up the modulation, the more narrow peaks are created which can be ignored by the weighting. FCC only counts a peak if it 1 millisecond or more. I've added FMeXta to dozens of stations now, and if their modulation is tight at 100%, FMeXtra at 20% does not normally exceed 110%.
A local Japanese group recently bought an FMeXtra encoder and a few radios. I put it on KSCA 101.9 here in Los Angeles. They have been on 92 kHz analog for some years and now FMeXtra is on 67 kHz broken up into three channels using AMRWB+ encoding at 7.6, 7.6, & 6.8 kb/s. It's much better than I ever expected at those low bit rates and they're satisfied with it. They did a lot of listening and I had urged them not to go below 10.4 kb/s and stick with two channels. Anyway, the first FMeXtra channel (x1) duplicates the analog on 92, then they have music on x2, and Taiwanese programming on x3.
The FMeXtra signal, though it is at only 10% injection, goes a little further than KSCA's IBOC. I use a Directed Electronics Car Kit HD tuner and a DRE Aruba for FMeXtra in my Prius. 30" mag-mount whip in the middle of the roof comes down to a splitter which feeds both radios equal signals. I haven't tried to measure the relative sensitivity of the two radios, however.
That test which ran on KLVE 107.5 here in LA last summer is not on now, but caused no problems and its presence was unnoticeable. KLVE and KSCA are both Univision stations. The system ran without a hitch for over 4 months. Even my CD player didn't die running in replay 24/7 all that time.
Once you get past the install costs which are much better than IBOC how much is it to purchase radios 100 at a time?
I've been following extra for years and have a group wanting another format that no one can place. I can use SCA now with low radio costs.
We're talking desktop radios capable of Extra. A small but dedicated group might start buying the radios. SCA costs are low but I have been told the radios are at $200 or more. This makes it as attractive as IBOC..
Any help on this?
I've been following extra for years and have a group wanting another format that no one can place. I can use SCA now with low radio costs.
We're talking desktop radios capable of Extra. A small but dedicated group might start buying the radios. SCA costs are low but I have been told the radios are at $200 or more. This makes it as attractive as IBOC..
Any help on this?
L
Lyle Henry
Guest
Aruba radios are very high quality and have not been produced in great quantity. Therefore the price is high. I think they list at $199. Quantity pricing should be available from dealers like Energy-Onix, Armstrong Transmitters, and BEXT. But I don't think they have any stock at the moment.
The radios have wooden cases, tuner bass ports, SD card slots, AUX in and out, headphone jack, and external speaker jack for stereo bookshelf applications.
I will be driving up to Wisconsin again for the summer and would be glad to visit anybody who's remotely within range. We can put FMeXtra on the air and drive around to see how it plays. All I ask is that stations feed me and put me up if I need to stay overnight in the area. They usually have trades, and I live low on the hog.
It should be fairly easy to create an audience for a new channel or two. Beautiful Music is very hard to find, but people love it. And many markets have no center or left talk available, for example.
The radios have wooden cases, tuner bass ports, SD card slots, AUX in and out, headphone jack, and external speaker jack for stereo bookshelf applications.
I will be driving up to Wisconsin again for the summer and would be glad to visit anybody who's remotely within range. We can put FMeXtra on the air and drive around to see how it plays. All I ask is that stations feed me and put me up if I need to stay overnight in the area. They usually have trades, and I live low on the hog.
It should be fairly easy to create an audience for a new channel or two. Beautiful Music is very hard to find, but people love it. And many markets have no center or left talk available, for example.
Lyle,
Since you are the defacto FmXtra guru, When will they be coming out with more receivers, and some at lower prices? I can see my stations using this as additional revunue by marketing the FmXtra signal(s) to large area Churches, etc. I have spoken with reps from some groups that want their own station, but obviously can't afford to buy an existing signal (even it were available), and putting a new one on the air is pretty much out of the question. Receiver availability and price would make a huge difference. I like the FmXtra concept, and can see many revenue generating possibilities here.
thanks,
Dave Fortenberry in sacto
Since you are the defacto FmXtra guru, When will they be coming out with more receivers, and some at lower prices? I can see my stations using this as additional revunue by marketing the FmXtra signal(s) to large area Churches, etc. I have spoken with reps from some groups that want their own station, but obviously can't afford to buy an existing signal (even it were available), and putting a new one on the air is pretty much out of the question. Receiver availability and price would make a huge difference. I like the FmXtra concept, and can see many revenue generating possibilities here.
thanks,
Dave Fortenberry in sacto
Lyle Henry said:Aruba radios are very high quality and have not been produced in great quantity. Therefore the price is high. I think they list at $199. Quantity pricing should be available from dealers like Energy-Onix, Armstrong Transmitters, and BEXT. But I don't think they have any stock at the moment.
The radios have wooden cases, tuner bass ports, SD card slots, AUX in and out, headphone jack, and external speaker jack for stereo bookshelf applications.
I will be driving up to Wisconsin again for the summer and would be glad to visit anybody who's remotely within range. We can put FMeXtra on the air and drive around to see how it plays. All I ask is that stations feed me and put me up if I need to stay overnight in the area. They usually have trades, and I live low on the hog.
It should be fairly easy to create an audience for a new channel or two. Beautiful Music is very hard to find, but people love it. And many markets have no center or left talk available, for example.
L
Lyle Henry
Guest
Yes, I guess I've had more experience with FMeXtra than anybody else outside DRE, but I don't have any inside knowledge as to when more models and lower priced ones will be available. I don't sell FMeXtra or represent DRE. I know they have been working with TCL and others in China for about a year, but my guess is that great quantities of special products for the Olympics are pushing other things aside. I know that Norm has been over there several times, including already this month. I expect he's trying to shake things loose.
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