FMQB HD Article

[LinoNYC]

"VSA" Inadvertently pointed me toward this one:

http://www.fmqb.com/Article.asp?id=636323

Quoting: Consumer awareness of HD Radio currently stands at 77 percent, according to a survey of radio listeners from Critical Mass Media. In another study of current or likely auto buyers by J.D. Powers, 31 percent said they want HD Radio in their next vehicle.

How could so many people not know that the product has already "failed".


Lino

 

[wgliradio]

Awareness of George W Bush stands at 99%. Approval at 31%.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Quoting: Consumer awareness of HD Radio currently stands at 77 percent, according to a survey of radio listeners from Critical Mass Media. In another study of current or likely auto buyers by J.D. Powers,

JD Power is the outfit that claims high customer satisfaction of Mindspring's tech support: outsouced to morons in India who take American jobs, can't speak legible English, and work from scripts. The script doesn't work, they repeat the same thing over and over. If your problem isn't covered by their script, they refuse to help. So much for JD Power credibility. NOBODY is ever helped by those idiots and everyone who has ever called one of those "tech centers" has ZERO satisfaction.

 

[Savage]

Awareness of Hitler approaches 100%. Approval rating is very similar to HD Radio.

Awareness of Congress approaches 100%. Approval rating is 18%.

How many of you are aware of Lino? (Fill in your own survey questions here!! ;D ;D ;D )

 

[tripinva]

Lots of people have asked me about it because I'm the guy who knows all of these things. Just because they're "aware" of it doesn't mean they know anything about it. They know that what they hear on the radio are commercials and are pushing a product. They often ask me how it works and what my opinion is.

I state my bias up front and offer both sides to the best of my ability. Generally they'll ask me what it is I don't like about it that I already have a negative impression, and I tell them of my issues with the implementation and the technology and the proprietary nature of it.

But usually it's the part where I mention the cost that makes most of them say "Oh, well, never mind then." They simply won't spend $200 on a radio, considering they're already satisfied with the radio they have (or the iPod they have, more often).

I've wanted to do demonstrations so people can judge for themselves about the audio quality, but I can't get anything to decode even though I'm within sight of the tower... that usually doesn't help people's perceptions, considering I watch digital TV with an antenna without many issues and generally show that off as well.

Savage, did you have to invoke Godwin's Law? =Þ

- Trip

 

[Savage]

Too much coffee: I plead guilty to Godwinism. And a pleonasm. After all, I did include Congress. Apologies to all.

"Well, I tried to capture the spirit of the thing." - Slap Shot,1975

 

[Savage]

BTW, the 77-percent "awareness" of HD Radio figure being trumpeted by the Alliance is frankly preposterous, illustrating the oft-heard proposition: you can prove ANYTHING with statistics.

I'm out in the community talking with listeners, associates, community leaders and clients every day. I have yet to encounter ONE person who isn't involved in the radio industry who is "aware" of HD Radio. The only feedback I've gotten from the public is from radio listeners who complain about the incessant repetitive Alliance promos running on HD stations, to wit: "What the hell is this HD Radio thing anyway??"

Count among the great unwashed herds of HD-ignorant: 100 PERCENT of the retail associates on my recent HD shopping foray at three area Radio Shacks, a Circuit City and a Best Buy - three of which had (returned/discounted) HD Radios on their shelves. Those would be, by definition: people who sell consumer electronics for a living. People tuned into trends, who would gravitate towards first-adopters of new tech. People who ought to care....but.....

 

[LinoNYC]

Awareness of Hitler approaches 100%. Approval rating is very similar to HD Radio.

Awareness of Congress approaches 100%. Approval rating is 18%.

How many of you are aware of Lino? (Fill in your own survey questions here!! ;D ;D ;D )

Awareness of WYSL -----------

http://www.arbitron.com/home/ratings.htm


M.I.A. Again? Well. atleast you are consistent.

Lino

 

[Savage]

I'll let that one go, Lino. I admit it: I've been teasing you through the bars in the past couple of days.

 

[KB1OKL]

Quoting: Consumer awareness of HD Radio currently stands at 77 percent, according to a survey of radio listeners from Critical Mass Media. In another study of current or likely auto buyers by J.D. Powers,

JD Power is the outfit that claims high customer satisfaction of Mindspring's tech support: outsouced to morons in India who take American jobs, can't speak legible English, and work from scripts. The script doesn't work, they repeat the same thing over and over. If your problem isn't covered by their script, they refuse to help. So much for JD Power credibility. NOBODY is ever helped by those idiots and everyone who has ever called one of those "tech centers" has ZERO satisfaction.

I think 99% of the US tech support has been outsourced to people who can't speak English, it's gotten to the point where I can't stand to call any kind of telephone support for anything lately.
I also saw that 77% recognition figure someplace recently, must have read the same article and it obviously has a missing decimal point along with a couple of zeros, more like .0077%. I do not know a single person who has even heard of it outside of a few fellow hams, nine out of ten hate it who know about it, in fact a thread on a ham online board I belong to recently had a thread pulled because one of them was an employee of iNiquity and raised such a stink against the overwhelming, ahem... negative feelings expressed toward it that it just disappeared .

 

[LinoNYC]

I think 99% of the US tech support has been outsourced to people who can't speak English, it's gotten to the point where I can't stand to call any kind of telephone support for anything lately.
I also saw that 77% recognition figure someplace recently, must have read the same article and it obviously has a missing decimal point along with a couple of zeros, more like .0077%. I do not know a single person who has even heard of it outside of a few fellow hams, nine out of ten hate it who know about it, in fact a thread on a ham online board I belong to recently had a thread pulled because one of them was an employee of iNiquity and raised such a stink against the overwhelming, ahem... negative feelings expressed toward it that it just disappeared .

Uh-oh Conspiracy Alert!!!

Maybe, just maybe that thread was dumped due to such intelligent responses as "iNiquity" Huum? Ofcourse we'll never know...as usual no proof.

I do not know a single person who has even heard of it outside of a few fellow hams, nine out of ten hate it who know about it

Well, I guess allowing for location, demos etc that is certainly possible. The "9 out of 10" doesn't cut it though.

thread on a ham online board I

That sadly explains alot. Ham radio is a relic of better times in consumer electronic education, most participants today are (well) over 50.

As cruel as this may read, most of these people are still in the "record player" age -very knowledgeable but they are of another time.

Radio, AM in particular has bigger issues than how it sounds on a wide-band antique in someone's collection.

Lino

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Radio, AM in particular has bigger issues than how it sounds on a wide-band antique in someone's collection.

Where have you been that last ten years? Virtually ALL newly designed AM sections are wideband. They use a single, cheap ceramic filter for the IF and if you are lucky you have less than +/-40 kHz bandwidth.

AM sounds really great on these junkers - but that's not because somebody consciously wanted to make "high-fidelity" AM sections. They just wanted it to be cheap, squeezed every last penny out of the AM section, and the wideband response is merely a nice side benefit.

AM stations sound great on these cheap radios - unless there is another local within 40 kHz, or if the AM station is foolish enough to downgrade their bandwidth or run IBOC, which self jams on these cheapies.

The radios like this, with accidental wideband AM bandwidth, probably outnumber IBOC receivers a thousand to one. So if I owned a station, I'd be putting my money into a wideband analog signal chain and sounding great to the vast majority of listeners, rather than playing into iBiquity's hands and lowering bandwidth so my station would sound as bad as the IBOC stations.

 

[LinoNYC]

Radio, AM in particular has bigger issues than how it sounds on a wide-band antique in someone's collection.

Where have you been that last ten years? Virtually ALL newly designed AM sections are wideband. They use a single, cheap ceramic filter for the IF and if you are lucky you have less than +/-40 kHz bandwidth.

AM sounds really great on these junkers - but that's not because somebody consciously wanted to make "high-fidelity" AM sections. They just wanted it to be cheap, squeezed every last penny out of the AM section, and the wideband response is merely a nice side benefit.

AM stations sound great on these cheap radios - unless there is another local within 40 kHz, or if the AM station is foolish enough to downgrade their bandwidth or run IBOC, which self jams on these cheapies.

The radios like this, with accidental wideband AM bandwidth, probably outnumber IBOC receivers a thousand to one. So if I owned a station, I'd be putting my money into a wideband analog signal chain and sounding great to the vast majority of listeners, rather than playing into iBiquity's hands and lowering bandwidth so my station would sound as bad as the IBOC stations.

I've been in New York these last ten years.

Thradios that you decribe are not typical of what I have encountered on average consumer sets. Maybe that cheap pocket radios with tiny speakers and one-chip AM are as you describe, but what I have heard in recent boomboxes, Home theater sets and 'streros" etc are quite narrow.

Here is a good sounding recording from the output of a recent (2005) Sony CFD-F10

http://www.sendspace.com/file/gdti3c 2mb

The AM stations are non iboc WBBR and WEPN. This set is better than most in that it handles strong signals without distortion has exc AGC and overall wide enough bandwidth. This is perfectly acceptable to me but for most listeners would not compare to FM.


For control purposes here is a short fM scan from the same set. Sorry about the multipath and other distortion, I had to balance the unit on my leg to get decent reception in this room.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ffc5wy 4mb

To be honest, I'd rather listen to AM such as WNYC's talk shows which are simulcast on their FM carrier but without using the Acurian's iboc the reception is plagued by frequent multipath.

Lino

 

[KB1OKL]

I think 99% of the US tech support has been outsourced to people who can't speak English, it's gotten to the point where I can't stand to call any kind of telephone support for anything lately.
I also saw that 77% recognition figure someplace recently, must have read the same article and it obviously has a missing decimal point along with a couple of zeros, more like .0077%. I do not know a single person who has even heard of it outside of a few fellow hams, nine out of ten hate it who know about it, in fact a thread on a ham online board I belong to recently had a thread pulled because one of them was an employee of iNiquity and raised such a stink against the overwhelming, ahem... negative feelings expressed toward it that it just disappeared .

Uh-oh Conspiracy Alert!!!

Maybe, just maybe that thread was dumped due to such intelligent responses as "iNiquity" Huum? Ofcourse we'll never know...as usual no proof.

Oops did I misspell iNiquity? I just can't seem to remember the correct spelling, must be a Freudian slip or something. Actually the thread was pulled because of the acrimony it caused amongst the posters, most of whom hadn't heard of it until the thread, most were outraged

I do not know a single person who has even heard of it outside of a few fellow hams, nine out of ten hate it who know about it

Well, I guess allowing for location, demos etc that is certainly possible. The "9 out of 10" doesn't cut it though.

I'm getting that from the thread, not a real cross section of hams, most of whom haven't heard of it either although most are familiar with digital forms of transmission.[/quote

thread on a ham online board I

That sadly explains alot. Ham radio is a relic of better times in consumer electronic education, most participants today are (well) over 50.

I would say the average age is about 50 not well over, in Electric Magazine this month there is a story from an 11 year old girl who has her Extra license, her father taught her.

As cruel as this may read, most of these people are still in the "record player" age -very knowledgeable but they are of another time.

I have my turntable right next to me and it blows away my CD player in realistic sound, LP's are coming back, didn't you know that? In fact Springsteen's new LP (yes LP) is not available on CD, only LP and paid download

Radio, AM in particular has bigger issues than how it sounds on a wide-band antique in someone's collection.

Yes, content and iBlock, oops there I go again with the Freudian slips, it's IBAC right? ;D

Lino

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Thradios that you decribe are not typical of what I have encountered on average consumer sets. Maybe that cheap pocket radios with tiny speakers and one-chip AM are as you describe, but what I have heard in recent boomboxes, Home theater sets and 'streros" etc are quite narrow.

Here is a good sounding recording from the output of a recent (2005) Sony CFD-F10

http://www.sendspace.com/file/gdti3c 2mb

The AM stations are non iboc WBBR and WEPN. This set is better than most in that it handles strong signals without distortion has exc AGC and overall wide enough bandwidth. This is perfectly acceptable to me but for most listeners would not compare to FM.


For control purposes here is a short fM scan from the same set. Sorry about the multipath and other distortion, I had to balance the unit on my leg to get decent reception in this room.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ffc5wy 4mb

To be honest, I'd rather listen to AM such as WNYC's talk shows which are simulcast on their FM carrier but without using the Acurian's iboc the reception is plagued by frequent multipath.

Lino

My guess is that there is quite an extensive inventory of parts for those old three can type AM sections. As soon as that inventory is burned through, they will probably be transitioned to the new IC based designs. The reasons are compelling - less board space, less components = higher reliability, cheaper, and if they really want it - decent performance. The Chinese who manufacture the stuff are reluctant to change a design they are comfortable with - I've been face to face with some of the bigger manufacturing houses over there. If you can save them a few pennies and get equivalent performance with slipping their delivery schedule, and you do all the PC board design work for them, then you have a chance at selling a part. And that is what these new ICs do - I can soup up a junky radio and make it work like a GE Superadio, there is nothing wrong with the ICs - just the cheap way they are used. If they have 20 million sets of IF cans, they will burn through the inventory because it has already been paid for. Then they will put in the new design. The newly designed boom boxes are probably in stores now - along with heritage reference design units.

In the next generation, you won't even need ceramic filters or AM ferrite bars - they are single IC's for everything. Serial communication in/out, a loop on the PC board for AM antenna, a wire somewhere for FM - radio part is done. No hacking even possible, the IC is what it is. Maybe if we are lucky iPods will have radios. No HD on those chips, though. Don't blame me, its not my company that makes them.

Thanks for the sound bites, it is interesting. Typical 4 to 5 kHz AM response out of a three IF can design as you suspected. When they make the switch, they will probably roll off the AM broadband response with an RC lowpass filter so people don't hear too much IBOC hash on HD stations. So the new designs may not sound too different from the old. Pull out the low pass filter, and they will sound almost like FM mono on non-IBOC stations.

NY must be a nightmare reception scenario on FM - I've never heard multipath distortion like that. It is a compelling argument for HD in environments like that - provided the multipath doesn't cause too many bit errors for the codec to handle. When you come right down to it - there is NO such thing as digital. It is ALL analog - and the digital transmission is limited by the same old shortcomings. Only they manifest themselves as fades back to analog, which is probably also degraded at that point.

 

[JohnnyElectron]

MICROSOFT ZUNE

Can somebody verify if the Microsoft Zune has an FM tuner that has RDS or HD? My offspring claim it does - maybe they know Dad will buy it if it has a real radio built into it?

 

[tripinva]

The Zune appears to support RDS. I had a friend show me one but nothing would come in on it (inside a school bus, nothing comes in) so I couldn't see it first hand, but my understanding is that RDS is supported.

- Trip

 

[jasondm4]

i really don't know why i even post anything on this board because all there is on here is anti hd people it gets so annoying hearing that HD radio has failed. I recently bought one and i live 40 miles out of houston and can get every hd station crystal clear including AM hd. i know a lot of you people think that am hd was a waste but it is sure better than nothing at all. Anyway think its a great product and i know many people who want to buy one. I think its ridiculous the way you people are acting

 

[BRNout]

Jason, seriously - your experience with HD reception is not typical. And that is the problem.

I'm literally within sight of the Philly FM towers and had to perform alterations to the supplied FM antenna to get HD to decode. Some of my other radios actually overload a bit from all of the RF in the area, yet the HD signals behave as if I was 50 or 60 miles out! As for what you get: The HD-1 signals are nice, but only a little better than the original analog. The HD-2s are, with one or two exceptions, not compelling. And, it took quite a bit of trouble to get them.

As for AM - HD? Forget it, I could not get any to decode - not even with two 50,000 former clears in the market. The HD portion of my AM receiver is deaf as a post. I can't imagine this technology working well on the road or at night - unless you're within 5 miles of a 50 kw blowtorch. Yet, having it on the air screws up analog reception for the 99.98% of the audience who aren't listening to HD. And yes, that represents a big-time failure in my eyes. A crash and burn.

So, you may be having a great time with your unit in Houston and I'm happy for you. But for every story like yours, there are ten others of failed HD reception. What you may characterize as negativity, I'll call realism. Because, in the real world, HD isn't working well at all. It's an idea that (on FM) functions well under perfect (laboratory) conditions, but falls apart under anything less. On AM, it's a disaster.

Just had to comment because I don't have a financial horse in this race. I am annoyed by the sidebands on AM, but that would have been forgiven if I was "wowed" by my AM HD experience. To the contrary, it was so underwhelming that I've become one of those negative posters too.

By the way, where are all of those new, cool HD radios that we were promised?

 

[KB1OKL]

i really don't know why i even post anything on this board because all there is on here is anti hd people it gets so annoying hearing that HD radio has failed. I recently bought one and i live 40 miles out of houston and can get every hd station crystal clear including AM hd. i know a lot of you people think that am hd was a waste but it is sure better than nothing at all. Anyway think its a great product and i know many people who want to buy one. I think its ridiculous the way you people are acting

Jason you are one of the few who gets good reception at DX ;D distance, it's probably partially because Texas is so flat, enjoy iy while you can it ain't going to be around for much longer.