• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

For the radio stations in Wilma's path...

Re: 0.1 watts *can* beat 50,000...

> Of course, the moment you connect a 1/2 wave antenna and
> the
> > balloon, it is no longer a legal Part 15 device!
> >
>
> THANK YOU.
>
> I've been waiting for someone to come out and say it!!!

So what if it's no longer a legal Part 15 device? Using it under these circumstances (after a disaster that knocks all licensed radio stations off the air) is analogous to speeding on an empty desert highway to get a badly-injured accident victim to a hospital. Of course it's illegal, but the greater good is served by breaking the speed limit to save a life. If there's no one else on the air *to* interfere with after a disaster, who cares what kind of antenna (legal or otherwise) is employed as long as useful information is broadcast to the public *ONLY* until licensed stations return to the air? -- Jason
 
For emergency FM broadcasting, a balloon-supported multi-element colinear antenna made from lengths of RG-8 coax would work well and provide a low beam angle, but it would be power-limited. A higher-power FM colinear antenna could be made from lengths of heliax, but you'd need a larger balloon to lift it. Also, FM is limited to line-of-sight propagation.

That's why I suggested emergency AM broadcasting using a balloon-supported, end-fed 1/2 wavelength wire antenna worked against ground. The vertical 1/2 wavelength AM radiator has a low angle of radiation and isn't limited to line-of-sight propagation as with FM, and unlike a 1/4 wavelength vertical antenna it doesn't need an extensive radial system to work efficiently (90%+ efficiencies can be achieved using a simple ground rod). A simple L-match antenna tuner will match the high-impedance 1/2 wavelength antenna to the 50 ohm transmitter output. Also, the lightweight wire antenna wouldn't need a large balloon to lift it, and small wire gauges can handle hundreds and even thousands of watts if a high-power transmitter is available. If not, a 1/2 wavelength end-fed antenna will make the most of the RF power from low-power transmitters. -- Jason
 
Jason has some great ideas. Just an aside, I know high fidelity is no issue in an emergency, but this is the first time I have ever heard of someone prefering the audio of AM TO FM ! If it is limiting he objects to, I ran a commercial FM in Texas with no limiting of any kind. I am sure over 99 percent of FM's would never do that though.
 
> Jason has some great ideas. Just an aside, I know high
> fidelity is no issue in an emergency, but this is the first
> time I have ever heard of someone prefering the audio of AM
> TO FM ! If it is limiting he objects to, I ran a commercial
> FM in Texas with no limiting of any kind. I am sure over 99
> percent of FM's would never do that though.

Jon, I thank you very much for your compliment.

Regarding FM vs. AM audio quality, I don't dislike FM, but to my ears it has what I would characterize as an "over-crisp, artificial, gooder-than-good" sound whereas AM has a warm, rich sound that sounds closer to hearing someone talking or singing in person. This difference is very noticeable with non-voice sounds such as that made by paper being crumpled in front of the studio microphone. On AM it sounds--well, normal, while on FM it sounds almost like thin glass being broken. While I don't mind listening to music on FM, I'm glad that long-form talk radio (where I like to listen for hours at a stretch) is almost exclusively on AM. -- Jason
 
*sigh*

Jason: Did you GO to NOLA? Did you SEE the devastation in Mississippi? After a hurricane or other disaster of that magnitude... where would I go about finding a tank of helium to blow up my hypothetical balloon to hang my hypothetical AM antenna on to broadcast to a hypothetical audience when A: I have no electricity (true, it could run off a battery... and possibly a solar panal - IF the sun was shining.) B: I have no means of communication (hypothetically speaking, I wouldn't be a ham and wouldn't have any working phones... making it impossible for me to GATHER news much less dissiminate it back out over my hyopthetical AM station) C: If I could find items A and B, how many people would be keeping their walkman and extra AA batteries with them as they sit clinging to their roof of their house for dear life???

Is it just me or does he have to have the last word of every thread of this discussion?<P ID="signature">______________
vide0 killed the radi0 star</P>
 
Re: *sigh*

I don't have to go to New Orleans to know what it's like there, because I went through Hurricane Andrew in 1992. We were lucky--not all of our broadcast stations (or their antenna fields) were in the South Dade County area that the eye wall flattened.

As far as getting the helium, balloon(s), antenna wire & guy lines, emergency AM transmitter & power supply are concerned, why not have them on hand *before* a storm comes? All of these items would fit in a broom closet or the back of a radio station utility van with plenty of room to spare.

Being a ham operator yourself, you have a "ready-made" source of news and useful information that you could relay to the public--*other* ham operators inside and outside the disaster-affected area. Even if you only have a CW (morse code) QRP (low power) transceiver at your disposal (or if you're concerned about the legalities of re-broadcasting ham voice transmissions on the AM band), you could collect information from other hams, write it down, and then read it over the air yourself.

When the full history of the New Orleans disaster is written, I guarantee you that there will be many, many accounts of residents huddling in upper-story attics (or in out-of-gas vehicles on the highways leading away from the city) trying to find *any* operating stations on their radios to hear news of the disaster. After Hurricane Andrew, batteries were like currency in my neighborhood, for radios as well as flashlights. -- Jason
 
Re: *sigh*

> When the full history of the New Orleans disaster is
> written, I guarantee you that there will be many, many
> accounts of residents huddling in upper-story attics (or in
> out-of-gas vehicles on the highways leading away from the
> city) trying to find *any* operating stations on their
> radios to hear news of the disaster.

I can guarantee you that you're wrong. WWL, the powerhouse AM in NOLA, was on the air the entire time, with the exception of a couple of hours. You could get that station in your fillings. Several of the stations outside of NOLA stayed on as well. Read this and come back here and tell me that residents were huddling in attics unable to hear anything. To say otherwise is a slap in the face to the brave radio people who stayed behind and put their lives at risk to get the information out.

In fact, people in neighboring states were, and still are, listening to WWL.

Listen, there are some sound ideas in your posts. But you're predicating them on the broadcasters all being down. The probability of that is very low - now more than ever we're ready for what comes our way.

Broadcasters would have little use for Part 15 devices in this case. Most Engineering types could have *something* fairly high power put together quickly.

Now, if neighborhoods would like to do this, more power to them. Be careful, though - bad information is worse than no information.

In the case of NOLA, WWL was the voice of Mayor Nagin, the EOC, state government, and the people.

I realize that you have an idea that you want to share, and that's great. Yes, there is some sound technology there. A lot of us don't think that it's very practical, however. That's OK too.

Understand that your audience here includes several people who not only have thought about these scenarios, but have dealt with them. You will not convert everybody.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
One company is doing this all ready...

Harris has a complete "flyaway" radio transmission system.

http://www.broadcast.harris.com/product_portfolio/product_details.asp?sku=WWWFLYAWAY

It can fit in two large cases.

They make a long wire 500 watt one for AM,
500 watt one for FM.

While a broadcaster is going to try like hell to get back on the air as quickly as possible after a disaster, they are also going to require to get a reliable signal to affected areas. They won't be playing around with part 15 stuff.
 
Re: *sigh*

> Is it just me or does he have to have the last word of every
> thread of this discussion?

Never wrestle in the mud with a pig....all you do is end up being muddy....and the pig loves it.
 
Re: The FACTS.

> Broadcasters would have little use for Part 15 devices in
> this case. Most Engineering types could have *something*
> fairly high power put together quickly.


I can't speak for most others (of course) but, I can tell you that for our small Texas panhandle town (2,029 people according to 2000 US Census and DIEING FAST due to current city mis-management), we have FOUR backup transmitters. (The main, a 5kw. Collins, a 1kw. Harris and TWO 500 watt SS units - one of which is currently doing "emergency duty" in south Louisiana.) a spare antenna, 200 feet of tower that is on the ground with the ability to get (at least) 50 to 100 feet of it into the air within an hour, a 40kw. backup generator, TWO 7.5kw. backups for the backup and UPS's to carry us through an hour while we wait for the generator to start (and, we'll be in trouble if it takes more than 5 minutes to start and level off).

The idea is that, should we get a tornado (worst possible scenario) that takes out the antenna, the tower and even the transmitter, we'd still have a completely seperate system that can be put into use. But, facing a possible tornado, we cannot have the spare tower "already up and ready" as it would most likely be snapped up by the same 300+mph winds so, it has to stay flat (anchored) to the ground until it is needed. (There's even a 200 foot length of 1.25" heliax ready to be unrolled and attached IF the situation should ever warrant it.)

Now, if we'd go to this kind of trouble in our tiny little "spot", I'd highly suspect that anyone in a larger community would have already made much more preparation than this to remain on the air at a respectable power level that should exceed part-15 levels by a tremendous amount.

Now, having said this, if I had been too short-sighted to properly prepare (and I have seen MANY stations like this in medium sized markets), I'd JUMP at the part-15 transmitter (or a 1 watt PLL FM) in the case of a major disaster! When you're down (not due to your own ignorance), ANYTHING *within reason* goes! I just don't ever anticipate having one of my stations that isn't fully prepared for ANYTHING that can happen. Not EVER!!! (How can you be recognized as *THE* community leader if you do?)<P ID="signature">______________
Terry Keith Hammond

Message Boards: http://www.monsterfm.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi</P>
 
Re: *sigh*

> Never wrestle in the mud with a pig....all you do is end up
> being muddy....and the pig loves it.
>


*point taken* thanks :)<P ID="signature">______________
vide0 killed the radi0 star</P>
 
Re: One company is doing this all ready...

Agreed, on all of your points. But if a station doesn't have one of these systems salted away (or has to wait for one to be flown/trucked in), *anything* that will get them back on the air in the interim will serve in a pinch. -- Jason

> Harris has a complete "flyaway" radio transmission system.
>
http://www.broadcast.har> ris.com/product_portfolio/product_details.asp?sku=WWWFLYAWAY
>
>
> It can fit in two large cases.
>
> They make a long wire 500 watt one for AM,
> 500 watt one for FM.
>
> While a broadcaster is going to try like hell to get back on
> the air as quickly as possible after a disaster, they are
> also going to require to get a reliable signal to affected
> areas. They won't be playing around with part 15 stuff.
>
 
Re: The FACTS.

Thank you, Terry. It sounds like you have a real "Cadillac" of back-up transmission systems! And that is all that I have been suggesting since I started this thread. Radio stations should have robust back-up systems and many do, but there are also many who don't make adequate preparations. -- Jason

> > Broadcasters would have little use for Part 15 devices in
> > this case. Most Engineering types could have *something*
> > fairly high power put together quickly.
>
>
> I can't speak for most others (of course) but, I can tell
> you that for our small Texas panhandle town (2,029 people
> according to 2000 US Census and DIEING FAST due to current
> city mis-management), we have FOUR backup transmitters. (The
> main, a 5kw. Collins, a 1kw. Harris and TWO 500 watt SS
> units - one of which is currently doing "emergency duty" in
> south Louisiana.) a spare antenna, 200 feet of tower that is
> on the ground with the ability to get (at least) 50 to 100
> feet of it into the air within an hour, a 40kw. backup
> generator, TWO 7.5kw. backups for the backup and UPS's to
> carry us through an hour while we wait for the generator to
> start (and, we'll be in trouble if it takes more than 5
> minutes to start and level off).
>
> The idea is that, should we get a tornado (worst possible
> scenario) that takes out the antenna, the tower and even the
> transmitter, we'd still have a completely seperate system
> that can be put into use. But, facing a possible tornado, we
> cannot have the spare tower "already up and ready" as it
> would most likely be snapped up by the same 300+mph winds
> so, it has to stay flat (anchored) to the ground until it is
> needed. (There's even a 200 foot length of 1.25" heliax
> ready to be unrolled and attached IF the situation should
> ever warrant it.)
>
> Now, if we'd go to this kind of trouble in our tiny little
> "spot", I'd highly suspect that anyone in a larger community
> would have already made much more preparation than this to
> remain on the air at a respectable power level that should
> exceed part-15 levels by a tremendous amount.
>
> Now, having said this, if I had been too short-sighted to
> properly prepare (and I have seen MANY stations like this in
> medium sized markets), I'd JUMP at the part-15 transmitter
> (or a 1 watt PLL FM) in the case of a major disaster! When
> you're down (not due to your own ignorance), ANYTHING
> *within reason* goes! I just don't ever anticipate having
> one of my stations that isn't fully prepared for ANYTHING
> that can happen. Not EVER!!! (How can you be recognized as
> *THE* community leader if you do?)
>
 
Re: *sigh*

>> Never wrestle in the mud with a pig....all you do is end
>> up
>> being muddy....and the pig loves it.
>
>
> *point taken* thanks :)

My Dear Lady,

We are a nation and society that were founded upon the premise of argument and debate. As the aerospace engineer Dr. Theodore von Karman once observed, "How can we possibly have progress without controversy?"

If simply responding to another poster's argument is piggish behavior, then we are all 'guilty' of that. But the truth of the matter is that ad hominem attacks constitute piggish behavior, and I have engaged in none of that. Also, ad hominem attacks are used by people who can't win an argument based on the facts. In your very first posting in this thread, you insinuated that I must be "smoking" something (clearly an ad hominem attack) after I merely suggested that a Part 15 AM transmitter and a full-size wire antenna could be used as a last-ditch way for a station to remain on the air if no other (obviously better) options were available. But I will not make an ad hominem attack upon you in return, for doing so *would* constitute piggish behavior. -- Jason
 
Re: *sigh*

As Mr. Old-Timer used to say to Fibber McGee: "That ain't the way *I* heared it!"

Our local news reported soon after the storm that all broadcast stations in the New Orleans area were knocked off the air. Granted, here in Fairbanks, Alaska we aren't that close to the story, and news of the aftermath hasn't been as extensive as it might be in closer areas (here, the Natalie Holloway story took up a lot of the news time blocks). I'm glad to hear that they had and have radio to help with the recovery.

Where did I "slap" any brave radio station staff members in the face? If your tower gets blown down and your transmitter and generator get flooded, no one can be blamed for that. Silent stations aren't inactive--their people are working as hard as humanly possible to get them back on the air. -- Jason

> > When the full history of the New Orleans disaster is
> > written, I guarantee you that there will be many, many
> > accounts of residents huddling in upper-story attics (or
> in
> > out-of-gas vehicles on the highways leading away from the
> > city) trying to find *any* operating stations on their
> > radios to hear news of the disaster.
>
> I can guarantee you that you're wrong. WWL, the powerhouse
> AM in NOLA, was on the air the entire time, with the
> exception of a couple of hours. You could get that station
> in your fillings. Several of the stations outside of NOLA
> stayed on as well. Read this and come back here and tell me
> that residents were huddling in attics unable to hear
> anything. To say otherwise is a slap in the face to the
> brave radio people who stayed behind and put their lives at
> risk to get the information out.
>
> In fact, people in neighboring states were, and still are,
> listening to WWL.
>
> Listen, there are some sound ideas in your posts. But
> you're predicating them on the broadcasters all being down.
> The probability of that is very low - now more than ever
> we're ready for what comes our way.
>
> Broadcasters would have little use for Part 15 devices in
> this case. Most Engineering types could have *something*
> fairly high power put together quickly.
>
> Now, if neighborhoods would like to do this, more power to
> them. Be careful, though - bad information is worse than no
> information.
>
> In the case of NOLA, WWL was the voice of Mayor Nagin, the
> EOC, state government, and the people.
>
> I realize that you have an idea that you want to share, and
> that's great. Yes, there is some sound technology there. A
> lot of us don't think that it's very practical, however.
> That's OK too.
>
> Understand that your audience here includes several people
> who not only have thought about these scenarios, but have
> dealt with them. You will not convert everybody.
>
 
This thread is DONE!

OK folks...

This thread is getting very close to turning into a big personal attack.

It stops now.

If you wish to add any *new* information, please do so. At this point, we are beating a dead horse.

If it continues, I will lock the thread.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>
 
Re: One company is doing this all ready...

> Agreed, on all of your points. But if a station doesn't
> have one of these systems salted away (or has to wait for
> one to be flown/trucked in), *anything* that will get them
> back on the air in the interim will serve in a pinch. --
> Jason

Part 15 won't have them "on the air" at all. As TX Engineer stated, almost every broadcast facility would leap frog right over part 15 levels because they can.



> > Harris has a complete "flyaway" radio transmission system.
>
> >
> http://www.broadcast.har>
> ris.com/product_portfolio/product_details.asp?sku=WWWFLYAWAY
>
> >
> >
> > It can fit in two large cases.
> >
> > They make a long wire 500 watt one for AM,
> > 500 watt one for FM.
> >
> > While a broadcaster is going to try like hell to get back
> on
> > the air as quickly as possible after a disaster, they are
> > also going to require to get a reliable signal to affected
>
> > areas. They won't be playing around with part 15 stuff.
> >
>
 
Re: One company is doing this all ready...

> Part 15 won't have them "on the air" at all.

I'll have to remember to tell that to all of the Part 15 AM radio station owners who sell advertising to local businesses and take on-air telephone calls from listeners during their local talk shows--they must only be imagining that their (admittedly short in terms of wavelength) antennas are radiating signals.

> As TX Engineer stated, almost every broadcast facility would leap frog
> right over part 15 levels because they can.

No argument here. If you've got an LPB-30 or something more powerful, use it. But if you don't (and some AM stations don't), a Part 15 AM transmitter and a full-size wire antenna will be heard. That's *all* I'm saying--a Part 15 AM transmitter *isn't* better than a 30 watt or 60 watt LPB backup transmitter, or getting the primary transmitter working again with a wire antenna and a generator if the tower is gone, but if these options aren't available due to the severity of the disaster, a Part 15 AM transmitter and full-size wire antenna are a workable "last-ditch" alternative to dead air. -- Jason
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom