Forever: The Game

[gargoyles]

When the REAL game is in the boardroom, the team on the field can't win. You want examples? How about the NY Yankees before Steinbrenner calmed down and got mellow and human. Post-Paley CBS is another fine example. Or Post-Sarnoff NBC. And then there are the auto companies in Detroit.

Forever's constant churning of executives, air talent and other employees, frequencies and formats creates an atmosphere of insecurity and fear internally, where there's usually plenty of that without front office help. And it creates an impression of instability, vulnerability and lack of direction externally which might discourage both listening and time sales. Everyone's distracted. So the opposing team has an opportunity.

Forever has a lot of momentum, a near-monopoly on Class B FMs and the only AMs with decent regional signals 24/7 in the State College region. And they won't go out of business tomorrow, no matter the degree of nonsense. But they are ripe for a good competitor with a clear vision -- any vision -- and the determination to stick with it.

Play Ball!

 

[shilton]

When the REAL game is in the boardroom, the team on the field can't win. You want examples? How about the NY Yankees before Steinbrenner calmed down and got mellow and human. Post-Paley CBS is another fine example. Or Post-Sarnoff NBC. And then there are the auto companies in Detroit.

Forever's constant churning of executives, air talent and other employees, frequencies and formats creates an atmosphere of insecurity and fear internally, where there's usually plenty of that without front office help. And it creates an impression of instability, vulnerability and lack of direction externally which might discourage both listening and time sales. Everyone's distracted. So the opposing team has an opportunity.

Forever has a lot of momentum, a near-monopoly on Class B FMs and the only AMs with decent regional signals 24/7 in the State College region. And they won't go out of business tomorrow, no matter the degree of nonsense. But they are ripe for a good competitor with a clear vision -- any vision -- and the determination to stick with it.

Play Ball!

Just curious if you could please define what would make one a "good competitor with clear vision" in your mind? I only ask because it seems anytime any of the other players in town even seems to think of themselves as a competitor, someone on this board always has to come out and accuse us of being "no ones just playing radio".

Seems to me there is already competition alive and well. Joe is taking on the Frog. Probably not an overnight success story, but if they stick to their guns 2, 3 years down the line...who knows. 3-WZ is doing their thing and always does well no matter what and G101's been whacking away at CHR for more than 2 years, plus B94.5 just rolled into town to move into that arena as well.

From my perspective, it sure looks like people are trying to compete with Forever and yeah...maybe the ratings are not showing their successes. But as I pondered on here once before, can you measure success by ratings alone? If you are meeting your sales goals and paying your bills and you have a loyal following among whatever crowd you want to target yourself to, could that not be deemed a success story in itself?

Just looking for your take on this.

 

[Hermes]

If you are reaching your sales goals with 5 dollar spots, buy one, get nights and weekends bonused...then you have set you goals way too low. The reason you can get away with that is there is little or no overhead and no one except the owner is making over 40k a year...and if you think that is success, then YOU ALL ARE VERY SUCCESSFUL! Most operators look at share of dollars in the market and how much of it they are getting. The dollars are not here or in Altoona and Johnstown for any decent size group to come in here and try to fight for a piece of the pie, when there's only a slice of pie to start with and no whole pie.

 

[gargoyles]

Addressing the SHilton reply here: by a clear vision is discovering or inventing what can be done to shoehorn into this crowded field, and eventually fill a decent sized shoe. So what's not being done? Most of the major formats are represented in State College. Other than dance, soul, Spanish, all news and left leaning politics, we have all the formats. So my next question would be "who is not being served?"

Two items in today's CDT sparked my interest. One: the Asian population is increasing rapidly. Two: high priced housing is now the norm, the national cooling of the real estate market notwithstanding.

So, who is not being served? Who's moving into those houses? Are they transients (as in Long Island, New York's Hamptons or Atlantic City, New Jersey or Berkeley, California or Washington DC? Are they working people, professionals, what? I don't have that answer, but the various taxing authorities around here probably have something of a handle on one.

If you can find an underserved or unserved niche, you can make a bundle.

Now to the posting that followed SH's reply:

The fact that non-Forever types are accused of "playing radio" doesn't mean they are. It means they're rattling someone's cage.

Going head to head against Froggy might weaken it but won't kill it. But weakening Froggy weakens the whole Forever complex, because they're obviously dependent on it as a revenue stream and can fiddle with their other properties as long as the Froggy money comes in. So if you want to compete with them, you have to not only weaken their main operation, but you then have to start competing for some of their other audience. To my ears, Joe's a better "listen" because it's not so wrapped up in its own goofy language, odd ball promos and strange DJ names. I like country music but I don't spend as much time with JOE as I do with the station at 12-something/am. But I'm not a typical listener, either -- at least I don't think so.

Five dollar spots and big bonuses and tradeouts and p.i. spots don't pay the bills. But you can get away with that if, as you pointed out, you pay badly, and can rely on an outside source for income (Froggy revenues and maybe real estate deals.) And if you set your corporate structure properly, you can keep your taxes low. Forever can do that if it so chooses. The rest of us nobodies can't. If we had access to a station, we'd have to make it pay for itself.

It's not an encouraging picture, but neither is it one that's impossible to paint, given adequate start-up assets.

 

[Hermes]

I'd be curious to see who you think is making a bundle now?

 

[Spackler1]

I'd be curious to see who you think is making a bundle now?

the newspaper.

 

[gargoyles]

I have no idea who is making money now, if anyone. That's not the point. The point is finding a frequency and finding an unserved or underserved segment of the population -- again, if there is one -- and then serving it.

What do we have here? Well, people associated with PSU (divisible in several ways.) Farmers, blue collar workers, small business owners, managers of larger businesses, retirees, non PSU students and those associated with them, doctors, lawyers, carpetbaggers, etc. Anyone I miss? Probably. Help me out with some information, if you can.

There's an interesting item in Forbes.com about the "next big thing" in radio is a return to locally programmed, locally staffed radio stations. It also says people are getting tired of canned, homogenized music and talk. Sounds like an opportunity, in as much as most of the day most of the local stations rely on outside programming sources (music syndicators, program syndicators, talk show syndicators, NASCAR, ESPN, Fox Sports and others.)

Does it make a difference? Yeah. Can you quantify the difference? Probably not.

 

[Hermes]

I'd think if you were going to purchase a station or several for a few million, you might want to make money at it. If you can make more money keeping your money in the bank without the hassle, what’s the point? It’s the same trends, just a different year.

 

[shilton]

Addressing the SHilton reply here: by a clear vision is discovering or inventing what can be done to shoehorn into this crowded field, and eventually fill a decent sized shoe. So what's not being done? Most of the major formats are represented in State College. Other than dance, soul, Spanish, all news and left leaning politics, we have all the formats. So my next question would be "who is not being served?"

Two items in today's CDT sparked my interest. One: the Asian population is increasing rapidly. Two: high priced housing is now the norm, the national cooling of the real estate market notwithstanding.

So, who is not being served? Who's moving into those houses? Are they transients (as in Long Island, New York's Hamptons or Atlantic City, New Jersey or Berkeley, California or Washington DC? Are they working people, professionals, what? I don't have that answer, but the various taxing authorities around here probably have something of a handle on one.

If you can find an underserved or unserved niche, you can make a bundle.

Now to the posting that followed SH's reply:

The fact that non-Forever types are accused of "playing radio" doesn't mean they are. It means they're rattling someone's cage.

Going head to head against Froggy might weaken it but won't kill it. But weakening Froggy weakens the whole Forever complex, because they're obviously dependent on it as a revenue stream and can fiddle with their other properties as long as the Froggy money comes in. So if you want to compete with them, you have to not only weaken their main operation, but you then have to start competing for some of their other audience. To my ears, Joe's a better "listen" because it's not so wrapped up in its own goofy language, odd ball promos and strange DJ names. I like country music but I don't spend as much time with JOE as I do with the station at 12-something/am. But I'm not a typical listener, either -- at least I don't think so.

Five dollar spots and big bonuses and tradeouts and p.i. spots don't pay the bills. But you can get away with that if, as you pointed out, you pay badly, and can rely on an outside source for income (Froggy revenues and maybe real estate deals.) And if you set your corporate structure properly, you can keep your taxes low. Forever can do that if it so chooses. The rest of us nobodies can't. If we had access to a station, we'd have to make it pay for itself.

It's not an encouraging picture, but neither is it one that's impossible to paint, given adequate start-up assets.

Thanks for the well thought reply. Only thing with the formats that are not being served....would you not essentially be suggesting "niche formats". Is it really conceivable to think that you could do something that is not mass appeal and succeed at it? Perhaps...but I think it would have to be very well planned out. Jazz was attempted 2 times in State College and fizzled both.

Fm talk...perhaps...but you'd have to be able to get the programming to drive it and I fear that much of the current AM talkers in the area have a lot of the big talent lined up between Rush, O'Reilly and all the rest...so who is left? Don't think a liberal talker would fly...too many registered Republicans in the region.

For the Senior population...maybe a "gold" station featuring the 50's & 60's? WOWY does well, but pretty much serves a different audience with the tunes of the 70's, some late 60's and early 80's too.

For mass appeal...as much as I hate it...Jack perhaps??? If done right, it may cut into some of the A/C audience. Other than that...what's left that's viable? Curious for someone to tackle this subject.

 

[ErikLane]

Has anyone looked into what the Waite Radio Network offer? It's unline networks like WW1 or Jones. It's all "liner-driven" & very local. Their "Oldies" format is pretty good. We run it on our AM station (WKVA Lewistown) and it's catching on nicely. Their "Genuine Classic Rock" is awesome. We run that on WCHX. You can use local DJs & their network jocks. I think it's very flexable.

Remember Rick Honea from Westwood One years ago? He's now heading Affiliate Relations at WRN. I wonder how well one of their formats would work in the State College area?

 

[Ned Gimp]

All the formats are viable- given ample time, and with realistic financial expectations. The problem lies with the gross mismanagement of the Forever properties-- they alone can drive the market but, for unknown reasons, seem determined to destroy the earnings ability of their own properties. And they keep doing it-- regardless of local management changes or format tweeks.

 

[gargoyles]

1. Doing something like buying and running a radio station is more than just about making money. I'm old fashioned enough to believe that if you serve the public interest, the money will come (not automatically, of course.) So putting money in the bank at 5% is fine. Investing in stocks, bonds, real estate, gold, etc. can also give you a good return. But personally, I'd like to build something of value and if I don't get rich doing it, so what -- as long as the bills are more or less paid.

2. SHilton: (Sorry, everyone here seems to know you. I don't and don't know your first name, hence I address your login name.)

I think the idea is to do something local, rather than buy programming from an existing source. Combine music with good to excellent live local personalities and decent promotion, and there could be something out there that can be made to happen. As for looking for un-used formats, well, I think that depends largely on who ISNT listening now because they don't like anything they hear. So, 40s standards with 50s Doo-wop (I hate the word but like the music) crossover county, 60s chicken rock (British Invasion stuff, Simon & Garfunkle, Bobby Vee, Rick Nelson, Elvis, Monkees, etc.) can be combined into a decent flow. I also think real news would add a lot. The main source of news around here is the CDT. It's okay, but late. And its website is later. I would have done a live play-by-play from the meeting discussing the high school proposals. I'd like to know more about Ray Gricar than anyone's saying. Who'll do the work the trailer dwellers now do when the mobile home parks are sold? And where will those people go? There are a million little stories that no one's covering.

As a relative newcomer to the area, I'm not as up to speed as I'd like to be or should be on the different population segments. I see two basic groups here... those affiliated in some way with the university and those who aren't. The school crowd probably listens to iPods and maybe occasionally to WPSU or the other school-owned station. A lot of the stores seem to be playing XM or Sirius, and some of the bigger ones (Wal-Mart, Target, Macy's) have their own piped in Muzak-like stuff.

The basic notion here is: people will listen to whatever comes in well and isn't obnoxious. Obnoxion being a subjective thing, my statement is vague, I'll admit.

gawd am I a windbag. Sorry for the length.

 

[gargoyles]

1. Doing something like buying and running a radio station is more than just about making money. I'm old fashioned enough to believe that if you serve the public interest, the money will come (not automatically, of course.) So putting money in the bank at 5% is fine. Investing in stocks, bonds, real estate, gold, etc. can also give you a good return. But personally, I'd like to build something of value and if I don't get rich doing it, so what -- as long as the bills are more or less paid.

2. SHilton: (Sorry, everyone here seems to know you. I don't and don't know your first name, hence I address your login name.)

I think the idea is to do something local, rather than buy programming from an existing source. Combine music with good to excellent live local personalities and decent promotion, and there could be something out there that can be made to happen. As for looking for un-used formats, well, I think that depends largely on who ISNT listening now because they don't like anything they hear. So, 40s standards with 50s Doo-wop (I hate the word but like the music) crossover county, 60s chicken rock (British Invasion stuff, Simon & Garfunkle, Bobby Vee, Rick Nelson, Elvis, Monkees, etc.) can be combined into a decent flow. I also think real news would add a lot. The main source of news around here is the CDT. It's okay, but late. And its website is later. I would have done a live play-by-play from the meeting discussing the high school proposals. I'd like to know more about Ray Gricar than anyone's saying. Who'll do the work the trailer dwellers now do when the mobile home parks are sold? And where will those people go? There are a million little stories that no one's covering.

As a relative newcomer to the area, I'm not as up to speed as I'd like to be or should be on the different population segments. I see two basic groups here... those affiliated in some way with the university and those who aren't. The school crowd probably listens to iPods and maybe occasionally to WPSU or the other school-owned station. A lot of the stores seem to be playing XM or Sirius, and some of the bigger ones (Wal-Mart, Target, Macy's) have their own piped in Muzak-like stuff.

The basic notion here is: people will listen to whatever comes in well and isn't obnoxious. Obnoxion being a subjective thing, my statement is vague, I'll admit.

gawd am I a windbag. Sorry for the length.

 

[shilton]

1. Doing something like buying and running a radio station is more than just about making money. I'm old fashioned enough to believe that if you serve the public interest, the money will come (not automatically, of course.) So putting money in the bank at 5% is fine. Investing in stocks, bonds, real estate, gold, etc. can also give you a good return. But personally, I'd like to build something of value and if I don't get rich doing it, so what -- as long as the bills are more or less paid.

2. SHilton: (Sorry, everyone here seems to know you. I don't and don't know your first name, hence I address your login name.)

I think the idea is to do something local, rather than buy programming from an existing source. Combine music with good to excellent live local personalities and decent promotion, and there could be something out there that can be made to happen. As for looking for un-used formats, well, I think that depends largely on who ISNT listening now because they don't like anything they hear. So, 40s standards with 50s Doo-wop (I hate the word but like the music) crossover county, 60s chicken rock (British Invasion stuff, Simon & Garfunkle, Bobby Vee, Rick Nelson, Elvis, Monkees, etc.) can be combined into a decent flow. I also think real news would add a lot. The main source of news around here is the CDT. It's okay, but late. And its website is later. I would have done a live play-by-play from the meeting discussing the high school proposals. I'd like to know more about Ray Gricar than anyone's saying. Who'll do the work the trailer dwellers now do when the mobile home parks are sold? And where will those people go? There are a million little stories that no one's covering.

As a relative newcomer to the area, I'm not as up to speed as I'd like to be or should be on the different population segments. I see two basic groups here... those affiliated in some way with the university and those who aren't. The school crowd probably listens to iPods and maybe occasionally to WPSU or the other school-owned station. A lot of the stores seem to be playing XM or Sirius, and some of the bigger ones (Wal-Mart, Target, Macy's) have their own piped in Muzak-like stuff.

The basic notion here is: people will listen to whatever comes in well and isn't obnoxious. Obnoxion being a subjective thing, my statement is vague, I'll admit.

gawd am I a windbag. Sorry for the length.

Since you are unfamiliar (and many would say you are lucky)...shilton stands for Steve Hilton, or "Hitman" if you will. Been in this market a long time, although took several years off before returning to the airwaves about a year and a half ago at G101 (101.1FM)

Be forewarned...I can be somewhat opinionated and often manage to set people off although I am not quite sure why, as I have read things on this board where people have said far worse things than I thought came from my mouth.

Serving the community...thats a really great idea, but that means many things to many people. There are broadcasters who will tell you if you mention the forecast once an hour and give the local temperature, you have "served" the community well. I like to think it means trying to make some kind of impact when possible. Get out and push for toys-4-tots and the blood drives...talk about Joe-Pa's broken leg and the game....talk about the things that are making headlines in the CDT instead of acting like the newspaper is the enemy. Heck, I will even quote "Saw this in today's CDT"....put callers on if and when you can, etc. Not everything you do will be "great radio" or sound like "major market radio", but I have always liked to think at the end of the day, if I said one thing that made someone stop and think...or crack a smile...or want to get involved, I have done my job.

Sadly today, I think the idea of "service" is somewhat outdated by many people's standards. As long as they have a million plaques to hang on the walls from all the charities they have given airtime to for this and that...they have served their listeners well. Very sad indeed.

 

[gargoyles]

Steve: I pretty much agree with your definition of public service and decry what's become of it today. I've never been a big fan of remotes, but understand they can be good promotion and sometimes people like to meet the people who's voices they hear.

And I can be as opinionated as the next guy, so fire when ready. I've been called every name you can think of and I'm still standing. And so are the people who(m) I called every name you can think of.

I come from what some people laughingly call a "major market." Most radio there is an abomination and has been for years. It's why I got out when I did (last December.) At the top of my game, such as it was.

 

[Hermes]

Great radio is when you make the headlines, not read about them from our good buddies at the Centre Daily Bird Cage Liner. I don't feel we have to answer to any but God (you’re close, but no cigar) about what we do to serve the community - but like some of us, try attending 28, three hour meetings for the Bellefonte Historical and Cultural Association during the course of the year (at night on your own time), try being a Big Brother, giving blood 4 times a year (not to mention every day at work), try using your announcer skills going to senior nursing homes and calling bingo games, try going to St. Andrew's and helping out the folks at the food bank all year long, not just at the holidays. Go visit Children's Hospital in Danville 2 or 3 times a year to talk with parents and kids being served by CMN and donating your time. Try building and painting houses, here and on the Gulf Coast with Habitat for Humanity - not just talking about something you read in the CDT. We all do our part in one way or another, and there is no need to cut a promo to tell everyone how SPECIAL we are because we act like human beings.

 

[gargoyles]

I don't think anyone here's talking about cutting promos. I think we're talking about serving the needs of this community in the various ways media can. While your off time resume is impressive, many others have good credentials for pointing out their good works, but don't feel the need to.

A simple "I'm too busy working in the trenches to do any more than I am" would have done. Not everyone has the same way of contributing, or even the need to contribute. And building a public institution that does good works (like the Bellfonte group or Habitat or Bingoland) is fine, if that's your thing. There are other ways, if it isn't. There's plenty of opportunity for contribution, in what ever way you choose to do it.

As for the birdcage liner: well, luke warm a job as they do, they have resources that radio around here doesn't. And to not make what the lawyers call "fair use" of those assets shortchanges the listeners. At the very least it can be used as a tipsheet for a radio reporter to follow up and confirm.

 

[Hermes]

The point is...people make up a radio station, when those people are doing their part to help the community; your radio station is part of that by the type of people you hire. You may not have a clue what other stations are doing behind the scenes and actions speak louder than words...live it, don't talk about it. We'd love to have a person with you wealth of major market experience, show us how to serve the needs of gay-Asians with pimples on their left tail cheek that drink Pepsi on at least 4 days our of any given month (they are being under-served). Some of us are aware of the resources the newspaper has, mainly cash flow - having once been employed by Gannett, the DESERT SUN newspaper in Palm Springs billed more in one week than KIIS in L.A. made in a month when they were in their heyday with Dees at the top of his game. It's noble to talk pie in the sky, but most people would like a paycheck - it cost more to live here than in Philly or the 'berg and you're not going to pay the folks or get anyone to move here with 5 dollar spots - yes it is about the money

 

[gargoyles]

Well, Herm, you leave me in a quandry. If I answer you, I have to respond to the babble that comes between what you're really saying, and if I don't I can leave the impression that you've ended the discussion with a checkmate. So I'll try to take the middle ground.

Of COURSE it's about money. But it's not ONLY about money.

Cash flow is not a resource until you have it. It doesn't just happen, you have to do something to make it happen. THEN it's a resrouce.

Where can I verify the dubious assertion that KIIS in its heyday made less in a month than the Palm Beach paper made in a week?

Where can I verify the dubious assertion that it costs more to live in SC than in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh?

No one is putting down people who do good works. And, yes, decent people can do any number of things to improve or otherwise help their community.

Serving the un served and under-served doesn't mean earth shattering changes. It means performing a service for the regular men and women in the area. Not necessarily the neediest or the worse off or the neglected or the hungry, though all that's certainly worthy.

What it means is letting them know (fast and right) what is going on in their community, how to dress for work, stuff that will improve their moods or attitudes, thus becoming both the friends or acquaintances we would like to be, and, parenthetically, complying with the spirit of the communications act of 1934 (most of which was left standing despite the positively idiotic de-regulation that happened in the 1990s.)

And, yeah, turning a buck at the same time.

 

[Hermes]

Where can I verify the dubious assertion that KIIS in its heyday made less in a month than the Palm Beach paper made in a week?

Call Wally Clark, Jay Cook or Gerry DeFrancisco – be happy to supply you with their numbers or try Craig Dubow at Gannett – you’ll note they kept TV and Outdoor and sold the radio division.


Where can I verify the dubious assertion that it costs more to live in SC than in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh?

Ask Mr. Hilton (he’s the apartment man) or try to call and find a two bedroom apartment in the city that you’d let your own family live in (not college frat kids) for under 800 a month. And even the crappy ones are rented. Pittsburgh has only a 70% occupancy rate and Philly is at about 80% (just Google)…average 2 bedroom rent in Pittsburgh is 550, Philly 670. Try buying any fast food here and it is 30-40 cents more than in Johnstown or Altoona; they know they got you by the egg-mc muffin.