Forever: The Game

[shilton]

Great radio is when you make the headlines, not read about them from our good buddies at the Centre Daily Bird Cage Liner. I don't feel we have to answer to any but God (you’re close, but no cigar) about what we do to serve the community - but like some of us, try attending 28, three hour meetings for the Bellefonte Historical and Cultural Association during the course of the year (at night on your own time), try being a Big Brother, giving blood 4 times a year (not to mention every day at work), try using your announcer skills going to senior nursing homes and calling bingo games, try going to St. Andrew's and helping out the folks at the food bank all year long, not just at the holidays. Go visit Children's Hospital in Danville 2 or 3 times a year to talk with parents and kids being served by CMN and donating your time. Try building and painting houses, here and on the Gulf Coast with Habitat for Humanity - not just talking about something you read in the CDT. We all do our part in one way or another, and there is no need to cut a promo to tell everyone how SPECIAL we are because we act like human beings.

I cannot understand all this loathing for the CDT. Like them or not, they ARE the local paper...the only one we have and a lot of people turn to them each day for what is and what is not news (at least online even if they do not subscribe). And it seems they must be doing something right, as most newspapers across the country are griping about a decline in revenue...meanwhile I bet the CDT is outselling many of our stations, perhaps even all of us put together. They cannot be all bad. Are they the best...probably not...but this is not New York either. We don't need the New York Times to tell us what the Doc has to say about Joe-Pa's leg this week. The CDT is all we really need to tackle that task. Our idea of "news" in Happy Valley is a big different from many other places.

For the things you do to help the charities in our area, I applaud you...its a wonderful gesture to do so much. However, sometimes you have to "speak" about things to really make an impact also. For example, do you think that Children's Miracle Network would be as successful were it not for their TV telethons and the radio promotions and drives the various broadacasters put on. Would Toys 4 Tots meet their collections's goals if persons did not crack the mic and remind people to drop a toy in the box when you are out shopping? Those "promos" you seem to hate so much really do make a difference. Yes, I can donate time to go help them with the gift wrapping or toy sorting and that is valuable...but I am only 1 man. By cracking the mic and talking about it, I can potentially motivate many people to get involved, so I'd say it should be a mix of both things to really make a difference to the community.

I am sure Big Brothers (and your "little brother") are happy to have you involved in the program, but how much more beneficial for you to serve as an inspiration and to get on the air and tell everyone about your little brother and how rewarding it is for you and how easy it is to do it yourself, etc. Now we have something don't you think?

I'm no Jesse Jackson as far as speaking and motivating people....but you best bet the good reverend does not move mountains by acting as one and quietly telling no-one about his works. He gets on the mic, or the tube or anywhere he can be heard and preaches to the masses and they respond. Good deeds inspire people to do more good deeds. Not saying one has to brag about all they do in this life to help make a difference, but you will not motivate others to follow in your footsteps by remaining silent either.

And as for making money....yes...its a business and yes we want to make money, but truth be told...the FCC never licensed a single radio station to make money...they were created to serve the public interest...and if you can figure out a way to do that while helping the community...great for you, the owners and the shareholders. But the govermnent could care less if you make a single dime

 

[Hermes]

Elected officals are to serve in the public interest too, and I guess they want to be of service so much that they spend 6 million dollars running for a job that pays 150K?

 

[gargoyles]

Apples and oranges, Hermie. Both fruit, both shaped mostly like spheres, but that's where the similarity ends. Steve put it better than I have, one posting above this one. No reason why you can't do your charity work proudly. No reason why you should think, which at least implicitly do, that yours is the only way.

Nothing wrong with making statements of dubious accuracy, either. If you can back them up. Where are those figures on KIIS and the Palm Beach paper. And where are the figures comparing living costs in Philadelphia/Pittsburgh/State College?

(Steve: I read the CDT every day, and don't find it terribly satisfying, probably because of my novice status in the area. But the days when broadcast and print media were constantly at war should be long gone by now. There's plenty in there, and as I pointed out earlier, it's a good tip sheet for local broadcast reporters. I also read the New York Times and Wall Street Journal every day. But that's just because I have the time to do it. My major complaint about the NYT locally is we get the Washington Edition here in SC. I've tried to talk Wegman's into getting the New York edition, but no luck so far. So I read it on the web.)

 

[shilton]

Apples and oranges, Hermie. Both fruit, both shaped mostly like spheres, but that's where the similarity ends. Steve put it better than I have, one posting above this one. No reason why you can't do your charity work proudly. No reason why you should think, which at least implicitly do, that yours is the only way.

Nothing wrong with making statements of dubious accuracy, either. If you can back them up. Where are those figures on KIIS and the Palm Beach paper. And where are the figures comparing living costs in Philadelphia/Pittsburgh/State College?

(Steve: I read the CDT every day, and don't find it terribly satisfying, probably because of my novice status in the area. But the days when broadcast and print media were constantly at war should be long gone by now. There's plenty in there, and as I pointed out earlier, it's a good tip sheet for local broadcast reporters. I also read the New York Times and Wall Street Journal every day. But that's just because I have the time to do it. My major complaint about the NYT locally is we get the Washington Edition here in SC. I've tried to talk Wegman's into getting the New York edition, but no luck so far. So I read it on the web.)

Well, you are right...the CDT is not great...but it is our local paper. Honestly truth be told, sometimes I get more useful stuff from the Daily Collegian and its pretty sad when you are pulling news tidbits from the student paper but it happens.

 

[statecollegian]

You folks talk as though no radio station in State College has live air staffs, does significant amounts of local news & information, has strong community involvement, or has working relationships with the newspaper and/or other media. I hear those things every day. Are you dismissing local radio without actually listening to it, or am I just listening to the wrong stations? Please don't get me wrong. It has been a very interesting exchange. It just doesn't seem to be a realistic snapshot of the market, that's all. Again, maybe we just have different tastes.

 

[Snafu]

They have divided and conquered the market. There is nothing out there right now that is going to wreck them except themselves, and while that is always a distinct possibility, you're going to have to deal with them for a while. They have a business plan that works for today even if most of what hits their transmitter might lead you to believe otherwise.

In this market their real competition is the iPod, Internet radio and satellite. In that respect they are getting their brains beaten in.

 

[shilton]

You folks talk as though no radio station in State College has live air staffs, does significant amounts of local news & information, has strong community involvement, or has working relationships with the newspaper and/or other media. I hear those things every day. Are you dismissing local radio without actually listening to it, or am I just listening to the wrong stations? Please don't get me wrong. It has been a very interesting exchange. It just doesn't seem to be a realistic snapshot of the market, that's all. Again, maybe we just have different tastes.

Yes...there are live shifts, there is news and info. But realistically those of us who have worked in the market for a number of years know that there has been a great deal of "paring down" in that arena over the years, especially since consolidation took place within the market. When I was at B103 in the 90's, we were live 24-7, had 2 full time news people to handle B103/WMAJ, had 2 sports casters as well as many part time individuals who would cover news and sporting events on a game-by game basis even as far as live play-by-play. We did "tailgates" for the games where the entire staff had to be in attendance...even for the away games (we hosted them at a local bar). We went to the Christmas Tree lighting downtown, the events for Easter Seals and Toys 4 Tots, teh Cancer Society and whoever else we could.

Today the news may be handled by the same guy who does afternoons on-air or just ripped and read from the local paper due to a lack of real reporters on-staff. Less play-by-play on local sporting events, cause the staffing is not there. No more live 24-7...maybe a shift here or a shift there...some stations are totally voice-tracked (not that there is anything wrong with that)...but its not the same as having a live jock in the studio either.

Stations do give to the community, but not like they used to. Could be due to budgetary constraints, could be due to just being cheap...could be a change in philosophies over the years....that I cannot say. I am sure different stations are doing different things for their own reasons. But I can tell you that they sure are not giving it the resources they used to.

 

[Becker]

You folks talk as though no radio station in State College has live air staffs, does significant amounts of local news & information, has strong community involvement, or has working relationships with the newspaper and/or other media. I hear those things every day. Are you dismissing local radio without actually listening to it, or am I just listening to the wrong stations? Please don't get me wrong. It has been a very interesting exchange. It just doesn't seem to be a realistic snapshot of the market, that's all. Again, maybe we just have different tastes.

Most morning shows in this area are live. And there are some that have live afternoons too.

As for news, WRSC-AM does the news, sports and weather on a regular clock during their live show in the morning. Pat Boland, who recently joined Kevin Nelson does a fine job with the news. He's a sports guy too. And Kevin Nelson fills in the rest. The back and forth between Kevin and Elliott Abrams is always funny. C'mon, does no one know about the Big Book of Weather? And all of the people there are always out and about in the community. Just because they aren't driving the station van and wearing call letters on their shirts doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

[Ned Gimp]

The point is they go through people at an embarassing rate. Yet have the idea they are somehow a quality organization. Forever? never ...Temporary Broadcasting.

 

[gargoyles]

Well, again, I have to point out that this mostly isn't about promotion. While WRSC and WBLF attempt news in morning drive, the rest of the day dies. WRSC is either recording its afternoon news or reading the same stories in the same words in the same order over and over. Ditto WBLF.

What I started with when I started this thread is this: There's a near monopoly among the rated stations that are licensed to or licensed near to State College, and that's a license to serve ownership and management without necessarily serving the public.

I then mentioned that there was a lot of syndicated stuff on the air, that there wasn't a lot of local hosting and that there wasn't much of an effort to cover news -- the first paragraph of this posting notwithstanding. When I say "syndicated stuff" I'm talking about some hosts and a lot of the music.

And I was (and remain) concerned about whether it would be worth trying to compete with the oligopoly by identifying (a) a potential frequency that's unused and which would cover the area adequately and (b) whether there was an under-served or un-served market segment that would listen and respond if it were the center of a station's programming.

This stuff then diluted into discussions about formats and the worth of the CDT, both of which are well worth discussion. And it was seasoned with a bit of whining about how difficult it is to make a buck in this business.

Chief among the whiners was one guy who asserted that in his history, a minor newspaper near Los Angeles made more money in one week than one of the top rated radio stations in L.A. did in a month. He further asserted that it costs more to live in S.C. than it does in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh. When I posted a request for his source, he disappeared.

The State College region has a few good, professional sounding radio stations. I would nominate 3WZ and the station and the FM station in Tyrone as my top two, although I'm not a huge fan of the music either plays. And I would rank JOE FM third. 3W is more or less patterned after WABC in its music days, which was based on McLendon's Texas rockers. That formula worked well when they killed it 20 years ago or so, and it's still good.

The broadcasting business in these parts is pretty opaque. But when you dig down a bit, you find there's much more to Forever than meets the eye. They're bigger than they seem, and I can't say how well they're run as a business. But as I and others have pointed out, there's more to radio than just making a buck, important as that may be.

But 15 or stations reaching the area, no one else sounds all that good.

 

[statecollegian]

Gargoyle says "And I was (and remain) concerned about whether it would be worth trying to compete with the oligopoly by identifying (a) a potential frequency that's unused and which would cover the area adequately and (b) whether there was an under-served or un-served market segment that would listen and respond if it were the center of a station's programming." Big questions. And good ones.

At first--and second--glance, I'm not sure either a) or b) applies to this area. But I might be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

a) Radio first reared its head in State College in 1922 or 1923--at Penn State--so broadcasters have been poking around here for almost 85 years. More to the point, Forever's engineers have scoured the region for available freqs--that's how 99.5 moved into Centre Hall from Mount Union this year and how 98.7 moved into Pleasant Gap from Mill Hall in 2001(?). They seem to be really good at that stuff.

b) As far as identifying viable niches, keep in mind that there are only 90-some-thousand year-round residents in Centre County. Counting AM & FM stations, commercial and non-commercial, roughly 20 local signals fight for the audience. That's counting only two (98.1 & 670) from outside Centre County. And that's not even counting the 4 or 5 local FM translators piping in religious radio from elsewhere. So maybe 25 altogether? Seems like a lot for this many people.

And the Oligopoly, as you term 4ever, has already deleted two full-signal FMs from active duty, selling 107.9 to a non-comm outfit and relegating 98.7 to repeater status. Oh, and they killed the CHR station that was #1 just a couple years ago. Subtracting players to shrink the market. So the survivors can pay the bills?

Yes, there are 3-or-4,000 Asians, mostly connected to PSU. And about 2,000 African-Americans. Maybe 500 Hispanics? Are those big enough niches to pay for construction of a radio station and then its operating expenses?

What are we missing? Seniors? That is, Adults 65+ (or even 55+) listeners not satisfied with WPSU, WRSC, WPHB, 670, 970, Country, Sports, Religion or the Soft AC FM? And even if there is a hole, will anybody buy ads to reach that demo? Even in big markets there are very few stations targeting Seniors. Why is that?

What do you think? This is real interesting. Thanks for bringing it up.

 

[gargoyles]

Some food for thought there. Let me see if I can answer your questions and then add some comments ("nobody asked me, but..." as Jimmy Cannon used to say.)

First, the conventional wisdom in much of the advertising industry used to be that those above 55 didn't spend money. After awhile, when that proved so blatently false, they came up with a fall-back position: Seniors aren't as easily influenced by advertising as younger people because they're more set in their ways and because they've already tried and rejected so many things that are advertised. That, of course, is nonsense. But that's the thinking at most -- maybe all -- the big agencies. Therefore, if you appeal to seniors, the only national advertising you get is for hemroid and hair loss remedies, memory enhancement and reproductive advancement pills, senior citizen homes, and dubious investment schemes. There are network spot pickups, of course, but they don't pay the bills. (Notice, there's no CBS radio affil anywhere around here. They don't need places like State College -- at least not now.) None of this means we have to accept the conventional wisdom with further investigation or challenge.

I wasn't surprised to hear that Forever's people had done all they could to keep down the competition, spinning off stuff or selling to non-commercial license holders, turning viable frequencies into repeaters. But, still, they may have overlooked something. There's bandwidth now that wasn't around two or three years ago. It's smart business, apparently within the letter of the law and speaks to my original point in this thread: Forever is playing its games in the boardroom, leaving their players vulnerable on the field. Further, who knows, maybe something around here is for sale and we here on the board don't know about it yet.

I've said before that I'm too new to the area to assess the viability of a potential minority audience. But from just traveling around the region, I'd think twice before I tried any format tailored to the taste of any specific ethnic or racial segment. But I still can make a case for possible un-served or under-served groups, particularly those that cross ethnic or racial lines. The most obvious one might be discovered by answering the question "who's buying all those relatively expensive new houses?" Those buyers include people of many different ethnicities and viewpoints. But they all share two things: fairly decent income and newness to the area. So there's one possibility.

Is there a farm community here? Doesn't seem to be much of one. But if there were, there's no one doing a morning ag report. (Or at least I haven't heard one.)

Is there a solid working class community here? Guys who drive trucks, women who sew dresses, people who work the boilers and HVAC systems in the office buildings and at the schools. Construction workers, appliance repair technicians. If we want to stereotype these guys, we can say, well, Froggy and Joe have them covered. Maybe not.

I'm looking for ideas and facts backed with figures, because I think that even though this is a crowded radio community relative to the population size and its fluidity, there's room for more.

 

[fwdmo]

Some food for thought there. Let me see if I can answer your questions and then add some comments ("nobody asked me, but..." as Jimmy Cannon used to say.)

First, the conventional wisdom in much of the advertising industry used to be that those above 55 didn't spend money. After awhile, when that proved so blatently false, they came up with a fall-back position: Seniors aren't as easily influenced by advertising as younger people because they're more set in their ways and because they've already tried and rejected so many things that are advertised. That, of course, is nonsense. But that's the thinking at most -- maybe all -- the big agencies. Therefore, if you appeal to seniors, the only national advertising you get is for hemroid and hair loss remedies, memory enhancement and reproductive advancement pills, senior citizen homes, and dubious investment schemes. There are network spot pickups, of course, but they don't pay the bills. (Notice, there's no CBS radio affil anywhere around here. They don't need places like State College -- at least not now.) None of this means we have to accept the conventional wisdom with further investigation or challenge.

I wasn't surprised to hear that Forever's people had done all they could to keep down the competition, spinning off stuff or selling to non-commercial license holders, turning viable frequencies into repeaters. But, still, they may have overlooked something. There's bandwidth now that wasn't around two or three years ago. It's smart business, apparently within the letter of the law and speaks to my original point in this thread: Forever is playing its games in the boardroom, leaving their players vulnerable on the field. Further, who knows, maybe something around here is for sale and we here on the board don't know about it yet.

I've said before that I'm too new to the area to assess the viability of a potential minority audience. But from just traveling around the region, I'd think twice before I tried any format tailored to the taste of any specific ethnic or racial segment. But I still can make a case for possible un-served or under-served groups, particularly those that cross ethnic or racial lines. The most obvious one might be discovered by answering the question "who's buying all those relatively expensive new houses?" Those buyers include people of many different ethnicities and viewpoints. But they all share two things: fairly decent income and newness to the area. So there's one possibility.

Is there a farm community here? Doesn't seem to be much of one. But if there were, there's no one doing a morning ag report. (Or at least I haven't heard one.)

Is there a solid working class community here? Guys who drive trucks, women who sew dresses, people who work the boilers and HVAC systems in the office buildings and at the schools. Construction workers, appliance repair technicians. If we want to stereotype these guys, we can say, well, Froggy and Joe have them covered. Maybe not.

I'm looking for ideas and facts backed with figures, because I think that even though this is a crowded radio community relative to the population size and its fluidity, there's room for more.

Here, http://www.colemanresearch.com/ contact them...they can do that perceptual you desire

Plain and simple, chances are a format that doesn't have mass appeal in a market with 130,000 isn't going to make a ton of local money nor will it build the cume necessary to create regional and national buys. Does that mean it can't happen? Of course not. But are you going to risk YOUR frequency on a long shot? Neither are the owners in the area!

So to your original point, yes, Forever is playing their games in the boardroom, but what business doesn't?

As a "player in the field" I would rather take my chances on a station like Lite or the Bus or QWK Rock than the format du jour that would be flipped if it didn't show instant growth (although, with their track record, no station is safe!?!).

 

[gargoyles]

Sure, every company plays games. But there are games and there are GAMES. The former are the usual maneuverings that people tend toward in any group situation. But when they get out of hand and become the latter, that's when the trouble starts.

What do you think is killing GM and Ford? What almost killed IBM? What almost killed Apple Computer, K-Mart and Krispy Kreme? All the maneuvering and playing with stock distracts to the point that the business goes in or near the toilet.

As for local radio here and now, I think Forever is vulnerable, but I don't KNOW that and am trying to find out, and then find out whether it's worth trying to compete with them. At the moment it doesn't look like it's worth it because the risk is great and the potential rewards are minimal. But that's only a preliminary finding based on what I read on this message board and a little bit of research into the community.

Of course, the fun factor has to be taken into consideration, too. And rattling the cage of an entrenched, fat, sloppy, overconfident, frightened bunch of suits is among my ideas of a good time.

 

[shilton]

I think an excellent point was brought up in this thread and it is something that has been said before. There are a LOT of frequencies in this area for the number of people there are. By your own counts, people come up with about 21 stations in all. Assuming every station is fightning for ad dollars, that pie gets cut up into awfully small slivers. Then when you look at small players, such as Allegheny Mountain, or First Media or Magnum...makes it very hard to adequately compete when your largest competitor can offer huge discounts for buying multiple frequencies, etc.

I have no idea what Forever's books look like or if they are economically a "target", but not sure any one owner has the ability to really give them a run for their money either because no matter how that one frequency fares, Forever still has 6 more to toss right back at you. They did not do what they wanted with CHR, so they cast it aside and walked away from it. Is that good for G101 or B94.5...sure it is...but will we outsell them? Probably not...as we have 1 station when they have so many.

I think we have reached a point in this market where the smaller owners have to do it for the love of it and to run a station that is profitable, but not making anyone rich. Because unless Forever starts casting frequencies aside and selling them off to their competitors, they are getting a lot of chumks of that really small pie.

 

[statecollegian]

shilton says "I think we have reached a point in this market where the smaller owners have to do it for the love of it and to run a station that is profitable, but not making anyone rich."

That may be stretching things just a bit. All of the owners in State College are billionaires or millionaires--or at the very least have access to millions--and have been buying & selling radio stations for decades. Magnum currently owns about a half-dozen stations, AMN about a dozen, and First Media--and its related companies--is about the same size as Forever and its related companies. No "moms & pops" in the bunch.

Your sentiment is sweet, but misplaced. These aren't kids playing with crystal sets up in the attic. As for what seem to be perceived as Forever's "problems" are more likely just very high goals and a very demanding management style at the corporate level. For some, enough is never enough. But whether that is good, bad, fair or unfair, depends largely on one's perspective. When we're all sitting at Beaver Stadium, we're all damn glad that Paterno has always had very high goals... is very demanding... and never accepts "enough." Are we all thrilled about an 8-4 record and a 4th place finish in the Big Ten? Joe sure isn't. (No "moms & pops" in that league, either).

 

[shilton]

shilton says "I think we have reached a point in this market where the smaller owners have to do it for the love of it and to run a station that is profitable, but not making anyone rich."

That may be stretching things just a bit. All of the owners in State College are billionaires or millionaires--or at the very least have access to millions--and have been buying & selling radio stations for decades. Magnum currently owns about a half-dozen stations, AMN about a dozen, and First Media--and its related companies--is about the same size as Forever and its related companies. No "moms & pops" in the bunch.

Your sentiment is sweet, but misplaced. These aren't kids playing with crystal sets up in the attic. As for what seem to be perceived as Forever's "problems" are more likely just very high goals and a very demanding management style at the corporate level. For some, enough is never enough. But whether that is good, bad, fair or unfair, depends largely on one's perspective. When we're all sitting at Beaver Stadium, we're all damn glad that Paterno has always had very high goals... is very demanding... and never accepts "enough." Are we all thrilled about an 8-4 record and a 4th place finish in the Big Ten? Joe sure isn't. (No "moms & pops" in that league, either).

Look at the markets their stations are in and the share of the markets they have in each. Thats what I was making more of a reference to. For example in State College, G101 is a stand alone operation...no sister station to help us along. B94.5 has WOWY...First Media has 3-WZ, but no other sticks in town whereas Forever has the Lion's Share of the frequencies and the marketplace. Regardless as to whether or not AMN or Firstmedia or Magnum own lots of stations, the fact is each market should stand on its own and its a lot harder for a broadcaster with 1 or 2 sticks in town to hold their own against a company with 6-8 that penetrate the marketplace. It becomes very hard for that one single station to be a cashcow.
Oh and you are right...no mom & pop outfits...But AMN is a Pop & Son Outfit...does that count!

 

[Ned Gimp]

The point remains that Forever has everything going for it...and more... to dominate the market and make a mint, but for some unfathomable reason ownership permits repeated mistakes to be made, and terrible PR to continue under one manager after another. When will they wake up to the real problem?
Perhaps never.
Perhaps they do not want to admit it.
Even Clear Channel would be ashamed of the reputation Forever has garnered.
And they blame everyone but themselves.

 

[fwdmo]

The point remains that Forever has everything going for it...and more... to dominate the market and make a mint, but for some unfathomable reason ownership permits repeated mistakes to be made, and terrible PR to continue under one manager after another. When will they wake up to the real problem?
Perhaps never.
Perhaps they do not want to admit it.
Even Clear Channel would be ashamed of the reputation Forever has garnered.
And they blame everyone but themselves.

What mistakes are you talking about...lol...there have been so many. Seriously, what's your take on what the real problem is??

 

[Ned Gimp]

Logan, of course. She has demonstrated her incompetence despite a series of managers and countless changes. She remains clueless