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Forever's Dilemma is Other's Opportunity

M

Marketer1021

Guest
Forever's Dilemma is Other's Opportunity

As I read through these boards I have seen few words of accolades for this company. The sheer number of people that have worked there and left, many in less than two years at their post, is staggering. The company did well when it first arrived on the scene. But what was happening then? FM was just starting to come into its own. They bought a 50,000+ watt FM and an established a.m. from owners that had to sell. Country was taking off. Put it all together and you have a profitable business.

Some people believe that if you want to really make money just eliminate the competition. Buy them, weaken them, cannibalize them. But when some believe that you dominate and can call all the shots you alienate people. Employees, vendors and clients don’t work well in a dictatorial environment. So you get turnover in all these groups.

Then there is the realty of the market place. For seven of the last ten years radio values increased. Some radio groups thought the trend would never end, or at least not so abruptly. Forever acquired a lot of stations during those heady days of radio acquisition. It appears that they bought a lot of radio property with a lot of debt and at some high prices. Now they have to service that debt. The current climate shows radio station values have dropped significantly. Rumor has it that Forever wants to sell off some of the turkeys they have but they can’t because they are upside down. They have to carry their wounded by using better perform ring stations. But those stations are losing revenue. So what do you do? Cut costs by cutting employee hours and combining positions. Managers such as Logan have to get out and try to sell more whether they can do it or not.

In the meantime people in the marketplace are sensing their weakness. Advertisers are now demanding more freebies. Some have left radio altogether citing lower cable advertising costs. And radio competitors such as the new country in State College are coming directly at Forever with better rates and many believe a better product. Forever’s response is to punt.

You see when you are managing from a position of strength that ownership did not develop and things aren’t falling into your lap, you hardly have the management credentials to know how to deal with a changing and challenging business environment.

My opinion is it that Forever leadership is clueless in the long run. A number of employees of that company were contacted by the majority owners of the company. They were asked by email for ideas on how to improve their stations. The respondents were asked to reply directly to the majority owners not to upper management. That would suggest a lack in confidence in local management. But it also suggests a new level of concern on how to fix the business and people at the top that are just scratching their heads saying, “Whuh happem?”

What’s the line about the people you step on when you are heading up the ladder?
 
I believe that you are on to something, I have heard that they are giving a lot of free spots and bouses to advertisers. That's got to hurt the bottom line! Didn't they borrow a lot of money from a Canadian bank just a few years ago? I believe it was right about the time they bought a number of stations in State College and Johnstown. 1210 Associates which is affiliated to Forever in some way and is feeling it also. But if you look around it appears that a lot of radio stations are seeing sales off.
 
Comps galore? There goes the rate integrity. They never did focus on that too much anyway. :D
 
What dilemma?
The company knows well the problem it has. Irresponsible and ruinous turnover rates in sales and management.
Central PA is full of highly successful, in some cases ultra-successful, managers and salespeople who have been shown the door there.
So now
They make money for other owners and enjoy the jokes.
 
I note that Forever has just sold WJAC and the newstalk AM (whatever the call letters are) in Johnstown. I know that Denny Pompa had been interested in getting his hands on these but apparently the deal couldn't come together.
 
I may be wrong but I think they had to discard 850 in order to bring their partner Nick Galli's (2510) stations into the Forever fold.

As a company, Forever has been extremely successful. Because of that, the guys at the top view State College as an anomoly. From their perspective the market is the problem, not their operational methods.

They might have a point. State College is very different from every other market they're in.
 
If Forever thinks State College is the problem, they should either try to understand it, or pull up stakes and go where they can be successful. They are in an unusual position, in that they have enough sticks to direct some of them at each of the various elements that make up the community. But that's not what they're doing. They're using cookie cutter formulas on all of their stations and thus are playing to only part of the population.

You can't live on generic right wing talk, generic variations of junk music, and generic, forced corniness. Their stuff sounds automated even when it isn't. Apart from their inside-the-business reputation as a company that eats its young, there's no reason they can't be successful here. But they have to figure this place out first, and they don't seem to be trying to do that.

Forever stations are hard to listen to. And as another poster pointed out, it's easy enough to buy "around" them, with a glut of other radio, TV, cable and print media here -- far beyond what a population of this size would typically justify or support.

(disclaimer: I have no connection with either Forever or PSU.)
 
Also, State College is a university town/setting and many in State College and Centre County are actual high school graduates. Plus it hurts one's ears to listen to the "Frog Format" if your IQ is over 70 and you graduated 8th grade. The Frog's idea of a 7 course meal is "a possum and a six pack". ribbit, ribbit
 
fryman said:
Plus it hurts one's ears to listen to the "Frog Format" if your IQ is over 70 and you graduated 8th grade. The Frog's idea of a 7 course meal is "a possum and a six pack". ribbit, ribbit

Well thats a load of frog spit if I ever heard it, much like everything else being posted here. My IQ is fine, I graduated from college, and you need more than a six pack to down a possum. And I listen to Froggy. But I digress. All I see on here is a lot of "I've heard..." and "Someone said..." and a few other lines that all mean the same thing. (I really have no clue what Im talking about, but I will continue to spread gossip.)

How about some hard core proof of what you are posting ?

I think as a long time listener, I can always throw my two cents in,.But when it comes to formats, signals, bonus things and what kind of area State College is, I really can't make any claims, judgements or assumptions, because the bottom line is this. Unless your the one paying the bills at Forever, either by being a Forever customer or being the Forever owner, at the end of the day, you assumptions don't mean squat.
 
What, in your opinion, would constitute "hard core proof," and for which statements would you like proof?

People who work for or have worked for Forever try to couch what they know or what they think they know in terms that won't confirm who they are or why they're writing. They would not write if they couldn't remain anonymous. That tells you something right there.

I have to agree with your objection to characterizing country music listeners as universally un-educated and dull witted. Country music casts a wide net because it tells good stories, has words you can understand and melodies you can remember and hum. Frog's presentation is sloppy and amateurish in both design and execution, especially when compared with the local competition.

But I disagree that opining here has no meaning or effect. The threads here often are reactive, not innovative. They are a sounding board for ideas that already are in circulation, and a way for like minds to come together (or unlike minds to dispute something.) Ultimately, we all pay Forever's bills to one degree or another. We pay them by gaining or losing market share from or to them, we pay by patronizing or declining to patronize their advertisers, we pay by listening; we pay by helping them maintain a market which does not generally attract potential top talent to an industry that badly needs to develop top talent.

A place like State College should be an incubator for talent, management and sales. But when the largest broadcaster acts like it does, that becomes widely known (largely through this board,) and discourages rather than encourages people to seek their start here.

Again I don't now have, and have never had any relationship with either Forever or PSU.
 
"People who work for or have worked for Forever try to couch what they know or what they think they know in terms that won't confirm who they are or why they're writing. They would not write if they couldn't remain anonymous. That tells you something right there."


Um, yes. You're right dead on.

I can't imagine why or how anyone could be so clueless as to not realize this. If you work at Forever or used to work there and would like a chance to get another job, why would you post in such a way that your identity could be figured out? Sounds nice on the surface though--challenging someone to come right out and say who they are and where they heard this or saw that. The only posters I've ever seen do that were upper management. Of course. They won't be fired or messed with. And the whole purpose of people at that level coming in and saying exactly who they are is intimidation and trying to hush people up who are revealing information and are on a level where they have something to lose. If you want accurate information on what may be going on in the background, info that's not being officially released--people will have to realize that posters may very well have to remain shrouded in secrecy. Start citing sources and where you heard this and that, and you'll leave a trail of bread crumbs leading a manager with your livelyhood in his hands right to your door.


Or at least, that's what they say. Yeah, I heard that somewhere.....
 
All 2510 and Forever employees were told they are not allowed to post on this board anymore. This is why there is a lot of I heard or someone said...cause they can't post on the board we will never have any hardcore proof unless someone is willing to risk losing their job. At least that is what I heard ;D
 
You are correct AJ!
Three different current employees of Forever/2510 have told me the same thing. In fact, they are even afraid to read it let alone post on it. What a shame.


ameyer said:
All 2510 and Forever employees were told they are not allowed to post on this board anymore. This is why there is a lot of I heard or someone said...cause they can't post on the board we will never have any hardcore proof unless someone is willing to risk losing their job. At least that is what I heard ;D
 
Well that answers my question of why we have not seen from certain posters on here recently. I miss some of them. I can fully understand being told not to post when you are on the clock or not to post using company resources, but I find it a little hard to believe that people would be told not to post here what-so-ever. What about those who want to discuss radio (or the history of radio) or share ideas and suggestions?

This could be a great tool for sharing ideas and improvement suggestions.

I can understand that a company would not want yet to be released information like a pending format change released on this board; although, it's not like that would do much or any harm at this point--there is little competition left to act on it. I have never seen an employee of Forever post any big "secrets" on here and if they value their job, they are certainly not going to get mean towards their employer in this public forum. That should be enough to control what they are posting right there. If they want to talk about radio without bashing their employer--let them. I guess it's not so random after-all, that since this decision was made, we have seen a lot more anonymous posters here and a lot more bitter posts. It could be that many people in broadcasting value free speech and feel like they are being steered towards socialist rule.

I don't condone targeting a particular person or organization, but I believe that the point has to be made that broadcasting is a business putting organizations and individuals in the public eye. For lack of a better way of stating this, running a radio station or being on a radio station is going to make you somewhat of a local "celebrity". With that title comes the scrutiny of those who you have chosen to present yourself as a "public group/person". It's not only Forever, but all radio stations, TV stations, TV networks, etc...some much more than others. Look at any of the other boards on this site. People share opinions, some right and some wrong, about radio and TV stations all over the world. And it's not only radio--it's people running for president, actors, singers, Britney Spears (whatever she is nowdays)....you get the idea. As a station owner or employee, having to deal with these opinions goes along with your choice to work in radio. You might consider your radio station your personal property, but you are shoving that station in front of the world. If you are going to broadcast your product, be willing to accept hearing (or reading) others opinions of your product. Get out of broadcasting if you can't stand the pressure. If you just can't find the thick skin, you could always just ignore this board and the stupid kids that post on it who are not going anywhere in life.

Forever has many great broadcasters and engineers with-in and I think it is a real shame that those creative minds are now unable to share there smart ideas about Central PA radio. I really hope that the powers at be reconsider their choice.
 
I know whereof which I write.

I am able to get rates that are about one half what they were a year ago. My information shows that Forever’s State College business is down, way down, Altoona down, Meadville down, Johnstown barely holding its own. Logan is running about trying to plug the leaks, unsuccessfully. This is the second or third year that their revenues have decreased.

I do not need to work in their building to get good information. I have contacts there who keep me informed. Not much loyalty to the company.
The perception is the company has shown little loyalty to its employees.

Forever management apparently lacks the ability to deal with a new radio market paradigm. They have got new competitors that are in their face. Their existing stations (acquisitions in the last 5 years) are now worth less than they paid for them

The two men that own forever asked, via email, a number of employees about what can be done to improve the stations. They were asked to respond directly to the owners not to local management. Does that sound like the owners have much confidence in their local managers?

When Forever told other radio stations that they would be charged for dubs we told them forget it. If they start charging other stations for dubs of our commercials they risk losing our business. Forever backed off faster than Michael Jackson can moonwalk. That’s another sign of weakness.

Now about employees posting here: they have in the past and still do post. I don’t see how forever can stop it. They may huff and buff but it’s usually ignored.
 
Certain forever sales people are suggesting first quarter sales are down for the group. Can anyone provide more info?
 
Broadcastress said:
Certain forever sales people are suggesting first quarter sales are down for the group. Can anyone provide more info?

Do you read your own industry news sites? First quarter was down for ALL radio groups across the country. So were the third and fourth quarters of last year. The drop in ad revenue was about 7% nationwide, which pales to the newspapers 21% drop in ad revenue and an additional 11% loss in readership and TV's 14% loss in ad revenue and a 34% loss in viewership.(writers strike) during the same time period.

Your comment sounds more like a sound bite from a CNN reporter than anything else. Vague and unvalidated.

BTW, I overheard a waitress at the Flying J say that the trucking industry was also down first quarter(operators run trucks slower to conserve fuel, and competition from the railroads)
 
It's today's headlines that spurred my comments.
The numbers that I am hearing is a double digit drop in State College, Meadville and Altoona, single digit drop in Johnstown revenue numbers. Not good compared to national.
 
Broadcastress said:
It's today's headlines that spurred my comments.
The numbers that I am hearing is a double digit drop in State College, Meadville and Altoona, single digit drop in Johnstown revenue numbers. Not good compared to national.

My point exactly. Your two statements in this are, "Certain forever sales people" and "I am hearing" would suggest to me that you are hearing unproven fact. Now, it could be true, but ask yourelf this. The national numbers are an average of many groups. Isn't Citadel the group that had a "stunning" loss in the quarter" with multiple stations losing double digit revenues in the first quarter? If they had a few areas that are 10% down and a few other areas that are 3% down, it is still in the national average.

The last company that I worked for had an office person who felt it was important to let certain drivers know everything that was not going well within the company. It caused several drivers to leave the company because of unfounded fears. The only thing that was not true was the crap that this woman was spreading, because she really had no idea what she was talking about.

My point once again is this: Unless your standing in the meetng when a companies revenues are discussed, you have no business repeating anything to anyone, especially if it has to do with financials. If someone in this company is repeating how well certain towns are doing, whether they actally know what they are talking about or not, they will eventally be discovered and dealt with, because that is just poor judgement on their part. If your getting paid, and you know that you had a rough few months, and you need to work harder to help improve the bottom line, then thats what you focus on. If your out touting off how bad a quarter you had, your either a moron or an ungrateful SOB, because when it comes to revenue, a salesperson who is worth their weight in salt is the last person who should be spouting off a rough quarter. It is their job that determines how well a company does, and if the company had a rough session, then the salesperon only has themselves to look at, and no one else.

Oh, and BTW, certain XM radio listeners have told me that most of the air staff who post on this board are actually just lip syncing.
 
There is an earlier poster that suggested when working for the foreverites one must watch their behind because management is insecure and would “punish” leakers. That doesn’t concern me because I know the ways in which they work. My vague comments on sources is so that people such as you, BR, have no chance to sniff out where the info comes from. Now, any on air person can look at the log and see how busy the schedule is and with just a little insight one can see what spots are paid and what are comps. All this information, put together tells the truth of the matter and that is revenues are down.

And you suggest it’s the sale persons fault if sales are off. Now that makes a lot of sense. Sales people are on commission. They have what incentive to not work hard to sell?

But if management prices the product, provides little or no leadership, dumps people, sometimes without legitimate reason, then everyone working at the company is curious as to how the company is doing. When revenues are off, that may be a signal to consider other job opportunities.
 
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