Format Brainstorm Chat

[LTT]

Last night I was talking with another former full time Houston jock about all the staff changes recently and the talk of format flip (which really never goes away, now does it?) and I proposed this format flipping thought. Which they couldn't NOT agree made a lot of sense:

The next format flip should be back to one which appeals to those of the more mature years.

Go with me here a second.

1) They aren't as likely to be streaming audio or stations on their PCs as the younger demos.

2) They aren't as apt to be owners of iPods or fancy phones that stream - read Jitterbug phones - as the younger demos.

3) They will probably be the only ones left with any money to spend once everyone in the usual working years of life become unemployed or homeless.

4) They will be the only ones left listening to local radio - not XM/Sirrius.

5) The US government stats show they are the largest, fastest growing segment of the population. And they aren't just retiring and going quietly to the nursing home rocking chairs either.

I began thinking about this over the holiday when I was home at my Mother's. She's in her early 60s. Has no CD player, doesn't have a clue how to stream on her PC (unless online Scrabble counts), still thinks Sirrius is just a star constellation, had to ask me what an iPod was because one of my nephews asked for one for Christmas and she always has the radio on in the car.

She still listens to the local radio station for weather and news and for company.

I'm talking a full service format that would actually appeal to those who still think radio is greatest thing ever. Not just news, but music.

Classic rock to them is not The Police and Elton John but Elvis. Adult contemporary is not Faith Hill but Neil Diamond. Country is not Kid Rock, it's the Hag and the Man in Black. The music format should be a mix of all that. Like the stations they listened to when they were in their 20's and 30's. The Top 40 stations many of us grew up listening to or worked at back in the 60's and 70's. I loved hearing The Carpenters, The Supremes and Jerry Reed all back to back on WHB in KC when I was a kid.

So that generation still believes radio is a useful tool. If given the right format and content they would flock.

In support of that premise: I went on a cruise a few years back and most of the other passengers were in their late 50s/early 60s or older. The friend I was traveling with worked in TV...I in radio. When they found out I was in radio they all wanted to talk to me and ask me questions. My friend in TV said she felt a little dissed. After all TV was cooler than radio right? Radio is still the medium of choice for this generation. It's just their choices in radio are not to their liking.

Or so I think...thoughts?

 

[FilioScotia]

You make good points on all counts. It would be a no-brainer to program to the huge and growing audience of people of "mature" years. I would love to see it happen.

The problem is that the people making programming decisions at most stations these days are in their 20s and 30s, and can't imagine programming to anyone not in their own age group.

 

[johndavis]

Last night I was talking with another former full time Houston jock about all the staff changes recently and the talk of format flip (which really never goes away, now does it?) and I proposed this format flipping thought. Which they couldn't NOT agree made a lot of sense:

The next format flip should be back to one which appeals to those of the more mature years.

Go with me here a second.

1) They aren't as likely to be streaming audio or stations on their PCs as the younger demos.

2) They aren't as apt to be owners of iPods or fancy phones that stream - read Jitterbug phones - as the younger demos.

3) They will probably be the only ones left with any money to spend once everyone in the usual working years of life become unemployed or homeless.

4) They will be the only ones left listening to local radio - not XM/Sirrius.

5) The US government stats show they are the largest, fastest growing segment of the population. And they aren't just retiring and going quietly to the nursing home rocking chairs either.

I began thinking about this over the holiday when I was home at my Mother's. She's in her early 60s. Has no CD player, doesn't have a clue how to stream on her PC (unless online Scrabble counts), still thinks Sirrius is just a star constellation, had to ask me what an iPod was because one of my nephews asked for one for Christmas and she always has the radio on in the car.

She still listens to the local radio station for weather and news and for company.

I'm talking a full service format that would actually appeal to those who still think radio is greatest thing ever. Not just news, but music.

Classic rock to them is not The Police and Elton John but Elvis. Adult contemporary is not Faith Hill but Neil Diamond. Country is not Kid Rock, it's the Hag and the Man in Black. The music format should be a mix of all that. Like the stations they listened to when they were in their 20's and 30's. The Top 40 stations many of us grew up listening to or worked at back in the 60's and 70's. I loved hearing The Carpenters, The Supremes and Jerry Reed all back to back on WHB in KC when I was a kid.

So that generation still believes radio is a useful tool. If given the right format and content they would flock.

In support of that premise: I went on a cruise a few years back and most of the other passengers were in their late 50s/early 60s or older. The friend I was traveling with worked in TV...I in radio. When they found out I was in radio they all wanted to talk to me and ask me questions. My friend in TV said she felt a little dissed. After all TV was cooler than radio right? Radio is still the medium of choice for this generation. It's just their choices in radio are not to their liking.

Or so I think...thoughts?

Having read the writings/rantings of Jerry DelColliano for awhile, I think you're right. Radio has two roads to go down:

1. Become relevant to teens and young adults who really don't care much about radio.
2. Superserve the aging audience who stilll cares about radio and ride that horse until the audience dies out. Did somebody say classic hits?

I would love to see someone return to the concept of a full-service AC and modernize it. Relevant local news, but tightly formatted so it doesn't get in the way of the music, delivered by real people who talk about relevant things.

In other words, do radio the way you used to do it, but create a station that sounds like it belongs in 2008 and not 1978.

But you should also follow the first track so you have an audience left when the 45 year olds who would dig this hit 55. The people on that cruise are in the 55-death demo that makes you no money.

 

[ilistentotheradio]

I'd understand where it'd make sense nation-wide. However, the median age of Houston is 31.

 

[fredcantu]

What about the argument that the older audience is not responsive to advertising?

 

[slickchick]

First, quick English lesson on contractions...could+not=couldn't....Matt(ilistentotheradio), you get an A!!!! Good job!!!!!


So many sweeping generalizations were made about people in their 50's and 60's that I felt I had to speak up. Most, I think(which means in my opinion, which means it may not be right) ,are way off base. Leslie, are you sure your mother is telling you the truth when she says she is 61? Maybe she is really like 71...aren't(right contraction) you around 47? If the poor thing had you when she was like 14 she needs to come to town so my almost 62 year old mother and her friends can take her out ..she deserves it!!! My mother knows how to work an ipod and so do all her friends. She loves the internet and listens to Sunny on it at work. That is the only station she listens to because she hates radio. She is always happy when I get fired or when I quit a radio job because that means she doesn't(another contraction) have to listen to that particular station any longer. She also loves Elvis, like me, loves John legend, Los Lonely boys and LL Cool J. She still goes to concerts with me. She and her friends are the first ones out on the dance floor when a 50 cent song comes on. Were the women on the ship that were impressed with you from another country? The Middle East maybe? Radio there (Jordan and Dubai) is awesome and new !!! They actually impress me!!! I ask that because 15 years ago when I started radio, everyone was impressed with what I did, but now, they pity me!!!! I don't think people should put all the blame on the companies for destroying radio. In the heyday of radio, you got a job because you were a great entertainer. Today, you get a job because your "DADDY" was in radio, or because you network well, and you tell the PD everything he wants to hear, or he finds you "cute", or because you don't "outshine" him or anyone else. Low self esteem and big egos helped make radio what it is today too.
BTW, my mother is just as poor as I am. Most of her friends are and they have good jobs. In the old days, people in their 60's had lots of money to spend. Today, they are struggling just like everyone else.

One last thing..RB if you are reading this board I'm sorry you got screwed at KILT. I knew you would. Why? Because, you are a wonderful man just like Irv. I found the two of you to be the most secure men I have ever met in radio. It's sad how they never fire the one guy who walks around the building thinking he is the second coming of Christ and who puts you down every chance he gets because you don't kiss his a** and worship the ground he walks on.


Let the reeming of me begin.....


Nicole

 

[radiopropd]

Leslie, I couldn't agree more with your posting. I might add the following - ask yourselves this: overall, what demo out there has the largest amount of disposble income? This is the demo that programmers, overall, should be programming to, and advertisers trying to get in their doors. Regardless of the economic times, they will still be spending money - albeit they will be more careful when it comes to spending - but believe me, they'll still spend.

I look at myself - there are several formats that I enjoy - Classic Rock, Classic Country, Current Country, and some A/C. As a programmer, I've programmed all those as well. A few years ago, I had a consultant remind me of something - (yes, I know how most of you feel about consultants - but this one was John Lund) - regardless, he reminded me that most listeners relate with what they listened to when they were in high school and college - it reminds them of what could be argued as happier times - times when they had no worries. For me, I listened to what is now classic rock when I was in high school and college - and there isn't a song I don't remember and don't enjoy when I hear it - it's what I relate to, and in many instances, what I would rather hear.

With this said, this formula not only can work, it does work - program it and they will come - both listeners and advertisers.

On a side note - LTT, a few weeks ago I told you over the phone that I wished you were working full time - I enjoy listening to you - you've got great pipes, you are simply fantastic behind the mic.

 

[zork]

your format has already been tried and failed --- KBME 790 Best Music Ever --

 

[Mediafrog+]

Two things jump into my mind: First, for the Country fans, I think Country Legends 97.1 does a pretty good mix of the classic music of that genre. Wonder how well it would do if it wasn't on a rimshot? It appears to be targeted at the demos we're talking about, who aren't thrilled with the current state of Country Music. Would need some live personalities to really make it work on a full signal.

Second, a station like Platinum 96.7 in DFW. This station is targeted at listeners who used to listen to KVIL during its glory days in the 70's and 80's...also the demo we're talking about. Would that work here, capturing Sunny 99 listeners that have become disenchanted with playlist changes?

 

[LTT]

First, quick English lesson on contractions...could+not=couldn't....Matt(ilistentotheradio), you get an A!!!! Good job!!!!!


So many sweeping generalizations were made about people in their 50's and 60's that I felt I had to speak up.  Most, I think(which means in my opinion, which means it may not be right) ,are way off base. Leslie, are you sure your mother is telling you the truth when she says she is 61?  Maybe she is really like 71...aren't(right contraction) you around 47?  If the poor thing had you when she was like 14 she needs to come to town so my almost 62 year old mother and her friends can take her out ..she deserves it!!! My mother knows how to work an ipod and so do all her friends.  She loves the internet and listens to Sunny on it at work.  That is the only station she listens to because she hates radio.  She is always happy when I get fired or when I quit a radio job because that means she doesn't(another contraction) have to listen to that particular station any longer.  She also loves Elvis, like me, loves John legend, Los Lonely boys and LL Cool J. She still goes to concerts with me. She and her friends are the first ones out on the dance floor when a 50 cent song comes on. Were the women on the ship that were impressed with you from another country? The Middle East maybe?  Radio there (Jordan and Dubai) is awesome and new !!! They actually impress me!!! I ask that because 15 years ago when I started radio, everyone was impressed with what I did, but now, they pity me!!!!  I don't think people should put all the blame on the companies for destroying radio.  In the heyday of radio, you got a job because you were a great entertainer.  Today, you get a job because your "DADDY" was in radio, or because you network well, and you tell the PD everything he wants to hear, or he finds you "cute", or because you don't "outshine" him or anyone else.  Low self esteem and big egos helped make radio what it is today too.
BTW, my mother is just as poor as I am.  Most of her friends are and they have good jobs.  In the old days, people in their 60's had lots of money to spend.  Today, they are struggling just like everyone else.

One last thing..RB if you are reading this board I'm sorry you got screwed at KILT.  I knew you would. Why? Because, you are a wonderful man just like Irv.  I found the two of you to be the most secure men I have ever met in radio. It's sad how they never fire the one guy who walks around the building thinking he is the second coming of Christ and who puts you down every chance he gets because you don't kiss his a** and worship the ground he walks on.  


Let the reeming of me begin.....


Nicole

Yes, it was full of generalizations. Those of us who know radio, know it is programmed by generalizations. Why do you think you have so much of the same thing everywhere in the country?

Obviously your mother is quite different than mine. Neither she not her friends of the same age or older are as technologically savvy as yours.

I'm not gonna go toe to toe with someone here about their mothers. MY mother taught me better than that.

I was merely putting out an observation I made over the holidays and wanted to see what other radio professionals thought about it.

Thanks for the rest of you who use this board for it's true purpose. To share radio ideas and news.

Having said that - Back on topic:

I agree, KBME gave it a shot. But that was an AM signal with no real help behind it. It really wasn't given the time or the promotion needed to be anything more than it was - an AM with no corporate belief behind it.

I also think stations and their owners have forgotten that retirees - or those approaching retirement age - are not just sitting all day knitting or tinkering in the garage. They are out golfing and taking vacations and buying new cars (my Uncle traded every year until the day he died because he wlways wanted a new car in the garage) and hunting/fishing/buying boats and motorcycles and redecorating their homes and all the things that they've always done. Because the generation that is retiring now is not the generation that was retiring 20 or 30 years ago. They may not be recession proof, but they are also not in line to be fired from a job. They join gyms and still are active in clubs and go out dancing.

I agree, JohnDavis, you must find a way to keep the audience coming to it as they age. I programmed KWKH-AM/FM in Shreveport back in the late 80s and we always jokes our demo for the Am was 55 to death. How would you tackle that issue if you were to adopt this format?

 

[slickchick]

I guess she did not teach you how to not talk about people behind their backs. When I worked at KILT and I had to do Tom's show the second night I was there ..you helped me by writing down where everything was. I thought to myself" what a nice lady". I even mentioned how you helped me and how nice you were to me on the air that night. I thought I could trust you and I also thought you were a feminist(I'M PROUD OF IT) like me. That's why I sent you an e-mail asking you if you thought they did not want women on at KILT. What did you do? You shared it with Rowdy!!! A lot of people in that buiding are nice to your face but act differently when you turn your back. Some of them could get in a lot of trouble for what they tell too!!

I will admit that my passive agressiveness was behind some of the comment.Plus, I'm on so much medication for my wisdom tooth that I'm in a fiesty mood today. So, I do apologize for that, but I'm sick of all the people that know each other coming on this board going "you're great" no "you're great" no "you're great" no "you're great"...it gets very old!!! Especially, when you can go across the hall and tell people "you're great" no "you're great" no "you're great". Also, I'm sick of all the people that think they have the right answer. Truth be told, if you had the right answer you would own a damn radio station and be worth millions!!!

I may be immature but at the age of almost 38 at least I know my worth. I don't have such low self esteem and need radio to fill a void in my life, that I stay at a radio station for ten years waiting for a full-time job!!!!

 

[slickchick]

This will be my last post...
My mom wanted me to tell you that she also loves Pink and she wakes up everyday worrying that she may not have a job at the end of the day!!!!

I volunteer at a senior center twice a month...if you guys want you can come they would love to have you!!!!!

 

[foursider]

Hopefully, if someone does launch such a station, they will find a program director that believes in carrying more than just a twenty-song playlist; like the contemporary ones do nowdays.

 

[johndavis]

I agree, JohnDavis, you must find a way to keep the audience coming to it as they age. I programmed KWKH-AM/FM in Shreveport back in the late 80s and we always jokes our demo for the Am was 55 to death. How would you tackle that issue if you were to adopt this format?

Having run a nostalgia station myself, I think the best way to not get tagged as the 55 to death station is to not be a nostalgia station...

Play currents. Your gold is your spice. But don't rely on the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack to carry your station.

What's more important to me is what's between the records. I think we've gotten so hyper-focused on imaging and positioning that we've forgotten how to connect with people. Give me real humans and no imaging buzzwords and I'll turn it up when you talk because I don't know what you're going to say next, and I'll stick around for the next break.

 

[rallen13]

LLT, GOD BLESS YOU!!!. I am not in disagreement with you, SlickChick, but neither am I disagreeing with LLT.
From one who is 65 years old (Tomorrow, Dec. 5), I do have the iPods and the computer streaming, et.al. But my choice of listening is still 1940's-'50's-'60's and "Old Time Radio" (now RadioClassics) on my XM Satelite Radio service.
My 87 year-old mother, on the other hand, wouldn't spend $10.00 for the best computer on the market and feels stupid with cords hanging out of her ears. Her comment was, "When you see those earphones sticking out of my head, you will know that they are attached to a hearing aid."
This from a woman who can outwalk me at the mall, drives a Ford Explorer, and recently broke her pelvis riding a Harley!
The point is, I believe that since so many have Sat-Rad service, it might behoove an organization like CC, or one like it, to string a few stations in the same market together in a variety of mature formats with (somewhat) similar advertising aimed at the target audience.
I have spoken with a few people from the Sat-Rad industry and all have said that of the channels dedicated to one of a kind programming, those mentioned above will be some of the last to be axed in the event of cutbacks. The two reasons they gave for this were: 1) that particular audience is growing, almost exponentially, and (2 because there is only one channel of each genre, unlike Rock or Country or Metal, people tend to stay there and are more likely to respond to the few commercials they hear because they hear them more often than would the channel surfers.
I must add that I have Sat-Rad because AM and FM no longer provide me with what I want to hear. I'm not a old stick-in-the-mud type either. I enjoy Sunny and Mix as well. But there are times when a second or third station option in those genres would be nice for a change. They simply aren't there. If they were, I would be inclined to take a chance on cancelling my XM subscription.
By the way, SlickChick. I agree with you on the contraction punctuation, but be sure to leave a space between the last letter of the previous word and the opening of your parentheses.

 

[LTT]

I have spoken with a few people from the Sat-Rad industry and all have said that of the channels dedicated to one of a kind programming, those mentioned above will be some of the last to be axed in the event of cutbacks. The two reasons they gave for this were: 1) that particular audience is growing, almost exponentially, and (2 because there is only one channel of each genre, unlike Rock or Country or Metal, people tend to stay there and are more likely to respond to the few commercials they hear because they hear them more often than would the channel surfers.
I must add that I have Sat-Rad because AM and FM no longer provide me with what I want to hear. I'm not a old stick-in-the-mud type either. I enjoy Sunny and Mix as well. But there are times when a second or third station option in those genres would be nice for a change. They simply aren't there. If they were, I would be inclined to take a chance on cancelling my XM subscription.

The cancellation of sat radio is another element to this idea I'd not considered. I'm sure a lot of folks who have XM, a luxury expense for many, will be cancelling their subscriptions as the economy worsens. We tend to slice off the extras before the staple things we need. If they were given a local alternative I'm sure many would gladly give up the monthly expense. Local news and weather was a big selling point for radio. Sat radio doesn't have that ability like a local station would.

I've also been thinking about the commercial make up. It doesn't have to be all car dealerships and furniture stores. I would imagine car dealerships will be cutting ad buys soon anyway. It might be interesting to see what new ideas AEs would come up with to focus on the older demos. I'm not talking funeral homes here but age specific business and events like the symphony and gardening stores and, rallen, for your mother a Harley dealership and physical rehab hospital! (Little joke there.)

Even for tech savvy mature demos, iPods are not suited well for in car use. With no XM in many cars or the cancellation of the monthly subscriptions local radio would fill that gap.

Thanks for the imput. It's nice to get so many differnt opinions and ideas. It may never become a reality - the return to real, local, full service radio for ANY demo - but it's fun seeing how a business plan for one might be drawn out.

 

[michaelshiloh]

LLT: It's a great idea and here are a few more reasons IMHO:

1. Consultants are pushing localism now as the future of radio. National sales are off tremendously this year...local sales are still jumping in many places.

2. The Top-40 format was not the same as the later CHR stations and today's adult AC, because as you said Top-40 was its own chart that included the most appealing country, R&B, Christian, comedy and "easy listening" as well as the most popular artists in rock, etc. A revival of such a format is long overdue and I think many people would consider it to be something "new" and maybe even exciting...If timed correctly it seems like there would be a huge sampling by younger demos at least at the start

3. Remember that president-elect Obama said just the other day that the economy is going to get worse before it gets better...probably much worse...radio needs to go where the money IS, and that would be older demos

4. There are audiences but no outlets for lots of music today...such a "best of" Top-40 approach might bring an entirely new audience to these overlooked artists

5. Playing a little music by well-produced local artists would be a shot in the arm to the local economy, perhaps

6. The PPM makes it much easier to tone down all the imaging and get-the-calls-in ramping up and down into songs, so there hasn't been a better time in many years for personalities to say something interesting between songs.

7. I was one of the younger people at KQUE when it bit the dust, and even though they were the lowest-billing station among the top-ten in Houston, they were in the top ten consistently and I know they had a long-standing relationship with upper-demo advertisers that kept the inflow of cash steady. In very hard future economic times this would seem to be a good sales plan.

 

[jrobert]

You make some very good points, BUT!

There's a reason 790 AM KBME disappeared. The demographic you mention, don't spend any money. They save it to live on. Who are you going to get for advertisers? Metamucil, Phillips MOM, Aspercream? National reps won't be interested. How do you sell a station with low numbers and high demos. Then what do you sell them? Cars? TV has that all wrapped up.

Nice thought though.

I've been trying like gang busters to get someone to listen to me about how to present the "Oldies" or "Classic Rock" as it should be known. People who listen to Elvis, The Beatles, Rolling Stones and Neil Diamond remember the songs, yes. But they also remember the delivery system as well. If your old enough, you remember listening to your favorite Top40 radio station. You remember the morning show and all the other favorite jocks, the jingles, the constant contests, next weeks survey, instant requests and "THE SOUND!" You couldn't wait to get home from school to turn on the radio. Oldies formats have failed in almost every major market. Why? Their playlists are way too short. I can remember at least 4000 songs I used to hear on the radio. Songs, that when I hear them, bring back some pretty vivid memories of my youth. Why won't these Oldies stations play them? Consultants tell them "they're not as recognizable as the Top 5 songs from any year."

My theory works like this. Bring back a station that was popular in the 60's. KILT is out, because they do a great job with sports and country. KNUZ for instatnce. Put it on a 100kw FM. Turn up the processing, just a little (we don't want AM radio pumping, just enough to make a presence) Add a little reverb, a "tight" format with tons of jingles, a constant contest (e.g. Loyal listener card giveaways, $100 and hour, $1000 dollars a day (drawn from the $100 winners) 24 hours a day. "LIVE" jocks around the clock and an enormous music rotation that plays the top 5 songs from any year rotated around all the other songs we remember. This way the top 5 don't get repeated as often. Plus program it locally. No consultants. In the old days, PD's did their own research and made local adjustments when needed. Consultants don't live here.

Anybody want to give it a try? I'm willing to talk to anyone.
J. Robert
[EDIT-private information removed at request of user]

 

[ericspin]

Am I the only one that sees a huge whole (musically) in Houston radio for adult alternative-leaning music? Maybe it's an inner-loop thing, but almost everyone I know listens to artists that aren't getting much, if any, at all, airplay (ex: Death Cab For Cutie, Ryan Adams, Ray Lamontagne, Spoon, etc.). Every bar I go to has these type of artists in their jukebox or on regular rotation on their piped-in music. The people who listen to this music are trendy, usually between middle to upper class, with money to spend. Has Houston radio just assumed that all of these people have moved on to satellite radio or their iPods and that they won't give terrestrial radio a chance?

Thoughts?

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Great conversation, folks. So often when some of these issues.... older demos.... defining oldies music, etc are discussed in these forums, a lot of "trashing" and trash talk results. You guys have actually "picked the object up" and looked at it from all sides.

Back when I was maybe 24 years old, I worked for a small-town broadcaster who taught me the importance of keeping the older generation in mind. They are likely to have SOME optional money to spend. Maybe not much, but some. Maybe this, too, is found more in rural markets, but the older generation will sing the praises of your station to the younger generation over Sunday dinner. (Those of us who have spent our lives moving from market to market where we have no family have forgotten the impact of Sunday dinner at Mom's)

The word on the street is that nobody buys the 55+ demos. The word on the street is that 'those people' have no discretionary spending. What the heck ever happened to imagination coupled with salesmanship? I grew up as a TEXAS BAPTIST... one of those people who was taught that dancing was evil. So, I didn't dance. When I got into radio there was no way I could be a good rock'n roll d.j. because I had no first hand knowledge how the music was consumed by the mass of listeners. I could be an engineer. I could be a newsman. I could be a salesman. But I could only be a useless d.j.

We have too many people in radio who don't understand what it is to be old, but sill alive. The GOOD radio people do well enough that they can retire by the time they begin to understand what it is to be old. So we are left with the people who are not good enough to be well-off enough to retire to lead our efforts to broadcast to the silver haired set.

I once worked with a man who walked funny. Someone commented on his walking posture one day. He explained to us he had been raised by his grandparents. Everybody he knew was the age of his grandparents. They all walked that way, so as a youngster he learned to walk like they did. When I knew him he was a nursing home executive. And a very good one. He could not only WALK like and old person, but THINK like one.

Maybe he would be available to manage our radio station for the mature audience?