Fox Appeals the Hopper Decision

[recto101]

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/490341-Fox_Appeals_Hopper_Decision_to_Ninth_Circuit.php

 

[LKellerIII]

I understand why "ad-hop" would scare the pants off the commercial TV industry, but somebody please explain to me how skipping commercials can be considered "copyright infringement." Seems like a stretch to me. Does that mean if I get up during a commercial break to get a snack, I'm infringing on somebody's copyright? Granted I'm stretching the premise a little, but the whole thing is ludicrous.

I don't know how ad-hop works, technically speaking, but my DVR and On-Demand from Comcast already has a feature that lets you skip 5 minutes forward or backward. It seems to me that all you would have to do is adjust that skip feature to the length of a commercial break, and you'd essentially have a crude version of ad-hop.

And are people really too lazy to fast-forward thru commercials? It's not a problem for me.

 

[landtuna]

I have an over-the-air DVR which has both skip and fast forward/reverse. It will not skip commercials automatically but it is easy enough to hit the button a few times and blow by any length commercial - which is exactly what the wifey does. She refuses to watch anything on TV that is not DVR'd because of the clutter of commercials.

The advertisers have killed their own golden goose.

The war goes on.......

 

[nomadcowatbk]

you're stealing programming if you don't watch the commercials according to TV execs like Jamie Kellner

 

[landtuna]

you're stealing programming if you don't watch the commercials according to TV execs like Jamie Kellner

Then Mr. Kellner would be very disappointed in me and my PC.

Seriously, is he an idiot? What percentage of viewers support their shows by actually buying the advertised products?

 

[KML0224]

The same Jamie Kellner who basically killed WCW's last chances of existing on TBS or TNT? He'll get no sympathy from me.

 

[nomadcowatbk]

The same Jamie Kellner who basically killed WCW's last chances of existing on TBS or TNT? He'll get no sympathy from me.

the same Jamie Kellner behind Pinky, Elmyra, and the Brain, never said I agreed with him, that's just how TV execs think

 

[w9wi]

I understand why "ad-hop" would scare the pants off the commercial TV industry, but somebody please explain to me how skipping commercials can be considered "copyright infringement." Seems like a stretch to me. Does that mean if I get up during a commercial break to get a snack, I'm infringing on somebody's copyright? Granted I'm stretching the premise a little, but the whole thing is ludicrous.

I don't know how ad-hop works, technically speaking, but my DVR and On-Demand from Comcast already has a feature that lets you skip 5 minutes forward or backward. It seems to me that all you would have to do is adjust that skip feature to the length of a commercial break, and you'd essentially have a crude version of ad-hop.

And are people really too lazy to fast-forward thru commercials? It's not a problem for me.

Keeping in mind that I'm an engineer, not a lawyer...

It's not copyright infringement if you walk out on the commercials or fast-forward through them.

It becomes copyright infringement if you record the program, edit out the commercials, burn it to DVD, and sell the DVDs to your neighbors at a profit.* Which is, in effect, what Hopper does.


Consider the long-term implications of the widespread implementation of Hopper & similar technologies. (as if it survives, competition will require cable & IPTV (FIOS/uVerse) to deploy similar technology) Advertiser-supported channels *cannot* survive if the ads are removed. I see two possible results:

1. Advertiser-supported channels find a way to defeat Hopper technology. I don't know how Hopper detects an ad -- would it work to just sell advertising in odd lengths? (Ford airs a 24-second spot, followed by a 41-second T-Mobile ad?) Do you fade through white, instead of black, between the program and the ad break? Alternatively, go back to what happened in the early days of broadcasting, integrating the sponsors' messages into the program itself. "You're watching Coca-Cola American Idol". "Wow! The Packers just scored *another* Usinger's Sausage Touchdown here in Sargento's Lambeau Field!"

2. Advertiser-supported television goes away. *Everything* you watch is a premium channel -- *you* replace the advertising revenue, through a greatly-inflated cable bill. Viewers probably can't afford to replace the advertising revenue for every channel they're watching today -- so you're going to end up with only the most popular channels, for a much higher price.

I'm not entirely certain we won't see option #3 -- that Hopper simply doesn't work very well, that either quite a few commercials slip through, or it cuts a bunch of program material...


* actually I'm pretty sure it's still infringement if you give the DVDs away, but in this case it *is* a profit-making venture.

 

[landtuna]

It becomes copyright infringement if you record the program, edit out the commercials, burn it to DVD, and sell the DVDs to your neighbors at a profit.* Which is, in effect, what Hopper does.

I'm not a lawyer either but I play one at my dinner table.

Wouldn't your example be considered copyright infringement just for the fact that the program content, and not the commercials, were copied and distributed? Stripping out the commercials would seem to make no difference at all.

Also, assuming that my understanding that recording programming for personal use is legal (and I think that must be true or the hoosegows would be very full) then how does Hopper become illegal if it records some of the broadcast but not all of it (doesn't record the commercials)? The recording is still being made for personal consumption and not for re-sale.

 

[kenglish]

Since the Hopper only works on the Prime Time shows of the major networks, I think that DISH just has somebody monitor the feeds and mark down the start and stop times of the commercials. They then upload the times in to your Hopper's player later on. When you play the shows (next day), that's when they jump over the commercials.

Broadcasters could, especially with all the newer disc-based recording technologies, just randomly start their network programs a bit later, or even earlier if they are on a different time zone feed, and screw the system up royally. If 230+ affiliates of each major network were to start shows all at different times, stretch or compress commercial breaks, etc, Charlie would be hard-pressed to keep up.

What I expect will happen, though, is the affiliates and their networks will just raise retrans fees exorbitantly, since the only way the Hopper-enabled viewer can be expected to "pay" for the programming is by eating the entire cost, not just watching the ads.
Of course, there are also product placements and on-screen-during-the-show snipes.

 

[landtuna]

Broadcasters could, especially with all the newer disc-based recording technologies, just randomly start their network programs a bit later, or even earlier if they are on a different time zone feed, and screw the system up royally.

They are already doing that. CBS is noteworthy. They either start them early or run them late. Fortunately, my DVR allows us to offset start and end times to defeat their anti-DVR programming.

The war goes on.

 

[dhett]

Alternatively, go back to what happened in the early days of broadcasting, integrating the sponsors' messages into the program itself. "You're watching Coca-Cola American Idol". "Wow! The Packers just scored *another* Usinger's Sausage Touchdown here in Sargento's Lambeau Field!"

I'm thinking advertising following the model used in the film, The Truman Show. Hyper-product placement!

 

[kenglish]

Broadcasters could, especially with all the newer disc-based recording technologies, just randomly start their network programs a bit later, or even earlier if they are on a different time zone feed, and screw the system up royally.

They are already doing that. CBS is noteworthy. They either start them early or run them late. Fortunately, my DVR allows us to offset start and end times to defeat their anti-DVR programming.

The war goes on.

That comes from the networks that way. I'm talking about every station making a random change in the start and stop times, so there is no national plan.

 

[KML0224]

Did he forget that they scored that Usinger's Sausage touchdown while in the Heinz Red Zone?

 

[Bill_W]

I understand why "ad-hop" would scare the pants off the commercial TV industry, but somebody please explain to me how skipping commercials can be considered "copyright infringement." Seems like a stretch to me. Does that mean if I get up during a commercial break to get a snack, I'm infringing on somebody's copyright? Granted I'm stretching the premise a little, but the whole thing is ludicrous.

I don't know how ad-hop works, technically speaking, but my DVR and On-Demand from Comcast already has a feature that lets you skip 5 minutes forward or backward. It seems to me that all you would have to do is adjust that skip feature to the length of a commercial break, and you'd essentially have a crude version of ad-hop.

And are people really too lazy to fast-forward thru commercials? It's not a problem for me.

Try watching some on-demand content from the broadcast networks on Comcast or Verizon. The fast forward is disabled. The networks don't want you fast forwarding though the commercials. Last time I watched something from FOX, it's like they just recorded the half hour commercials and all and will not let you fast forward through it.

 

[landtuna]

I'm thinking advertising following the model used in the film, The Truman Show. Hyper-product placement!

I personally don't have any objection to product placement as long as it doesn't distract from the show content. The way they display soft drinks on American Idol is stupid however - especially considering Randy is diabetic.

 

[Poledo]

Did he forget that they scored that Usinger's Sausage touchdown while in the Heinz Red Zone?

I don't watch enough sports to know if that was a joke or not but the SEC on CBS does have the "Verizon Red Zone".

 

[w9wi]

It becomes copyright infringement if you record the program, edit out the commercials, burn it to DVD, and sell the DVDs to your neighbors at a profit.* Which is, in effect, what Hopper does.

I'm not a lawyer either but I play one at my dinner table.

Wouldn't your example be considered copyright infringement just for the fact that the program content, and not the commercials, were copied and distributed? Stripping out the commercials would seem to make no difference at all.

True.

Although in Dish's case, they have a copyright license to distribute the programming. As long as they don't modify it by removing the commercials.

Also, assuming that my understanding that recording programming for personal use is legal (and I think that must be true or the hoosegows would be very full) then how does Hopper become illegal if it records some of the broadcast but not all of it (doesn't record the commercials)? The recording is still being made for personal consumption and not for re-sale.

The legal question probably becomes, who's doing the recording? A case can be made that it's you, the subscriber, doing the recording, in which case it's OK. A case can also be made that it's Dish that's doing the recording. Again remembering that I'm not a lawyer, I would think that if you're leasing (not buying) the Hopper and/or any necessary commercial-spotting service, it would greatly bolster the case that it's Dish doing the recording.

 

[landtuna]

The legal question probably becomes, who's doing the recording? A case can be made that it's you, the subscriber, doing the recording, in which case it's OK. A case can also be made that it's Dish that's doing the recording. Again remembering that I'm not a lawyer, I would think that if you're leasing (not buying) the Hopper and/or any necessary commercial-spotting service, it would greatly bolster the case that it's Dish doing the recording.

Far be it for me to understand all the legalese either but I would think that "hands on equipment" would determine who is doing the recording and not who owns the equipment.

Perhaps it all boils down to the question - if DISH is modifying the content to strip the commercials and then sending it out or the commercials are being skipped at the customer site by the customer.

My head hurts!!!

 

[anotherguyTN]

Is the Supreme Court ruling in the Betamax case on home video recording in the 80's being totally ignored in all this?