From Super CFL

[Prais]

In 'outerspace" the SAME music is FREE (barter) 24/7. MOST people wouldn;t know the difference. Besides, there are a zillion ac's around. your competitor is already "on the bird."

Here on earth, we'd have to pay a dj, his insurance, and benefits (unless you get a minimum wage kid who would mispronounce lots of stuff) ...and he would kvetch about working a weekend or holiday. He'd probably leave w/little or no notice.

radioray said;"the more I invest in my product and people, the more I get in return." Ray, not always. I must look at my calendar. I thought 1959 was 50 years ago. Mr. auto body doesn't have to pay the bills I do.

Radio is much more expensive to run than his business.

 

[Prais]

I wonder WHAT YOU would "skimp on" so you would be able to make a buck (or a half a buck) with all of those jocks? How would you pay your sale peeps? My sales reps got 30% commission and nothing more. That was a great idea. Good people worked their tails off -lazy people left soon.

WHERE is the bank you are robbing to make yor theory happen?

Granted, you'd sound good - maybe not much better than the automated guy (it depends on HIS skill with automation, too).

(back on topic...OMG!!) WCFL SOUNDED great - maybe even BETTER than WLS (I thought so) - but they were drowning in red ink - even with improving ratings. MOST "Joe six packs" never noticed the "better sound." If they had, 'cfl would have kicked wls's butt in ratings and revenue. I thought WYNR sounded better than wls - but they couldn't do it either.

 

[radioman148]

>>WCFL SOUNDED great - maybe even BETTER than WLS (I thought so) - but they were drowning in red ink - even with improving ratings. MOST "Joe six packs" never noticed the "better sound." If they had, 'cfl would have kicked wls's butt in ratings and revenue. I thought WYNR sounded better than wls - but they couldn't do it either.

Why was WCFL drowning in red ink? Was it because of the emergence of FM and only one AM station could survive at the time?
WYNR couldn't make it because their signal was so inferior to WLS.

 

[TheBigA]

Why was WCFL drowning in red ink? Was it because of the emergence of FM and only one AM station could survive at the time?

That's pretty close to true. Although several AMs in Chicago fared much better than CFL. WCFL's ratings were in trouble in 1976, even with Larry Lujack. They changed formats a few times, then, due to financial pressure, the union sold the station to Mutual Broadcasting. That pretty much killed it right there. Then after five years of multi-million dollar losses, they sold it to a religious company.

It's easy to armchair quarterback, and blame today's big companies for the state of radio. But the truth is that small companies screwed things up pretty bad long before deregulation. The reality is that AM radio has been in a long state of decline starting with the growth of FM in the early 70s. As years go on, fewer and fewer AM stations are able to hang in. The big powerful AMs are very expensive to run, even without personnel costs. So enjoy your memories, folks. There won't be any Super CFL revivals any time soon.

 

[Prais]

Radioman1 asked;Why was WCFL drowning in red ink?

I believe the main reason was the big jock payroll, the 50kw electric bill, the rent in Marina City (a big show), just the general cost cost of competition with wls. THEN, the emergence of fm - and the beginning of the downward trend of am. Also, I'm not sure of trhe economy during that time. Only so many dollars to go around, anyway.

I also believe the old farts who ran the Chi Fed of Labor were TIRED - very tired of pumping cash into this money burning collosus for pimply kids (like me).

 

[radioman148]

Radioman1 asked;Why was WCFL drowning in red ink?

I believe the main reason was the big jock payroll, the 50kw electric bill, the rent in Marina City (a big show), just the general cost cost of competition with wls. THEN, the emergence of fm - and the beginning of the downward trend of am. Also, I'm not sure of trhe economy during that time. Only so many dollars to go around, anyway.

I also believe the old farts who ran the Chi Fed of Labor were TIRED - very tired of pumping cash into this money burning collosus for pimply kids (like me).

Larry Lujack certainly had a big contract at the time.

 

[kba]

I also believe the old farts who ran the Chi Fed of Labor were TIRED - very tired of pumping cash into this money burning collosus for pimply kids (like me).

That's pretty accurate. Several of the board members of the Federation of Labor felt that it didn't belong in the radio business, or - if anything - should have programmed 'CFL with pro-labor talk shows. Bill Lee - the Federation's president - was a supporter of the station, and as long as it was making money, he was able to prevail on his board
to keep their hands off it. But as WLS got stronger and FM competitors emerged, there was little appetite at the Federation to continue an expensive ratings battle.

The switch to beautiful music was designed to cut expenses and increase profits so that the station could be sold at a higher price. Mutual eventually paid $12 million for it, and sunk millions more into it as it flipped through three unsuccessful formats - all-news, oldies/AC, and talk/pop standards.

 

[TheBigA]

Mutual eventually paid $12 million for it, and sunk millions more into it as it flipped through three unsuccessful formats - all-news, oldies/AC, and talk/pop standards.

During that same period, they owned WHN in New York. They had great success there with the country format. I imagine they would have loved to have made CFL country, except for one thing: WMAQ.

 

[radioman148]

Mutual eventually paid $12 million for it, and sunk millions more into it as it flipped through three unsuccessful formats - all-news, oldies/AC, and talk/pop standards.

During that same period, they owned WHN in New York. They had great success there with the country format. I imagine they would have loved to have made CFL country, except for one thing: WMAQ.

Wasn't WJJD still doing country also in the 70s?

 

[TheBigA]

Wasn't WJJD still doing country also in the 70s?

Yep.

 

[RADIO TRUTH]

At the height of WCFL's greatness as a radio station in 1967 with the best staff they ever had, they were losing $90,000 per month.
There were a few reasons for this. Because the station was owned by the Chicago Federation of Labor, they had to have a bunch of extra employees that were union forced on them, that they didn't need. There was a separate record turner, board op and dj. Three people when the job could have been done by one. The other reason was that Ken Draper was totally irresponsible when it came to spending money on promotions. The WCFL Think Green promotion was one of the most expensive promotions in top forty history. The WCFL Sunset promotion was also expensive. WCFL also had high engineering costs because of the directional array and 50kw transmitter. It's not that the djs made a lot of money. That was not the problem. Barney Pip was making $18,000 per year from WCFL
in 1967. He made another $80,000 that year doing personal appearances. That was true for all of their djs. There were other reasons that WCFL was losing $90,000 per month but, mostly it was all the extra, unnecessary employees because of the union.

 

[radioman148]

At the height of WCFL's greatness as a radio station in 1967 with the best staff they ever had, they were losing $90,000 per month.
There were a few reasons for this. Because the station was owned by the Chicago Federation of Labor, they had to have a bunch of extra employees that were union forced on them, that they didn't need. There was a separate record turner, board op and dj. Three people when the job could have been done by one. The other reason was that Ken Draper was totally irresponsible when it came to spending money on promotions. The WCFL Think Green promotion was one of the most expensive promotions in top forty history. The WCFL Sunset promotion was also expensive. WCFL also had high engineering costs because of the directional array and 50kw transmitter. It's not that the djs made a lot of money. That was not the problem. Barney Pip was making $18,000 per year from WCFL
in 1967. He made another $80,000 that year doing personal appearances. That was true for all of their djs. There were other reasons that WCFL was losing $90,000 per month but, mostly it was all the extra, unnecessary employees because of the union.

Did CFL ever make money in their Rock & Roll years? It's hard to believe they would have remained in the format as long as they did if they were losing that kind of money every year--especially after they gave Lujack that large contract in 1972.

 

[RADIO TRUTH]

If WCFL did make money after Lujack came back to WCFL in 1972, it was because they ran the station a lot differently than in the Draper years. They spent as little as they could on promotions and in comparison to the 1967 staff, they hired many less talented djs
with the exception of Lujack. The 1972 era WCFL used more of a modified Drake format and emphasized music. The 1967 WCFL played the music but, emphasized personality and promotions. Basically, the 1972 era WCFL was run as cheaply as possible but, they still had the same problem that they had in the 60s with all the unnecessary extra employees because of three separate unions. The 1972 era WCFL also spent much less money on news and production. If you remember, the 1967 WCFL news department staff was huge and many of them went on to New York or the networks including Jeff Kamen, Carole Simpson, John Webster and a few others. The 1967 WCFL also had Dick Orkin and Bert Bertis who created Chickenman with Ron Brittain and Jim Runyon. If you don't believe that the 1972 era WCFL jocks were worse than the 67 crew, think about the jocks that most stick out in your mind when you try to remember. Many people don't remember that Lujack did the all night show on WCFL for six months until he was hired by WLS to do afternoons. When most people think of the history of WCFL, they think about Jim Runyon, Jerry G. Bishop, Joel Sebastian, Jim Stagg, Barney Pip, Ron Brittain and Dick Biondi. I don't think too many people think about John Driscoll, Steve York or Larry O'brien. I have all the WCFL surveys from 1966-68. I am getting in the mood to look at them. One other issue that I would like to address is the audio processing in the 60s of both WCFL and WLS. WCFL had a great chief engineer named Jim Loupas but, compared to WABC, New York, both WLS and WCFL had incredibly flat, dead sounding audio. I always wondered why the audio of WLS sounded so lousy when WABC's audio sounded so good with compression and reverb considering they were both ABC O & O's.

 

[radioman148]

If WCFL did make money after Lujack came back to WCFL in 1972, it was because they ran the station a lot differently than in the Draper years. They spent as little as they could on promotions and in comparison to the 1967 staff, they hired many less talented djs
with the exception of Lujack. The 1972 era WCFL used more of a modified Drake format and emphasized music. The 1967 WCFL played the music but, emphasized personality and promotions. Basically, the 1972 era WCFL was run as cheaply as possible but, they still had the same problem that they had in the 60s with all the unnecessary extra employees because of three separate unions. The 1972 era WCFL also spent much less money on news and production. If you remember, the 1967 WCFL news department staff was huge and many of them went on to New York or the networks including Jeff Kamen, Carole Simpson, John Webster and a few others. The 1967 WCFL also had Dick Orkin and Bert Bertis who created Chickenman with Ron Brittain and Jim Runyon. If you don't believe that the 1972 era WCFL jocks were worse than the 67 crew, think about the jocks that most stick out in your mind when you try to remember. Many people don't remember that Lujack did the all night show on WCFL for six months until he was hired by WLS to do afternoons. When most people think of the history of WCFL, they think about Jim Runyon, Jerry G. Bishop, Joel Sebastian, Jim Stagg, Barney Pip, Ron Brittain and Dick Biondi. I don't think too many people think about John Driscoll, Steve York or Larry O'brien. I have all the WCFL surveys from 1966-68. I am getting in the mood to look at them. One other issue that I would like to address is the audio processing in the 60s of both WCFL and WLS. WCFL had a great chief engineer named Jim Loupas but, compared to WABC, New York, both WLS and WCFL had incredibly flat, dead sounding audio. I always wondered why the audio of WLS sounded so lousy when WABC's audio sounded so good with compression and reverb considering they were both ABC O & O's.

You make an excellent point regarding the audio of WLS. For some reason they sounded pretty flat until the 70s when they did start to use reverb like WABC. Also your point about the 70s DJs is a good one. Most of them are not memorable.
Yesterday you said Barney Pip's salary was $18,000. That sounds awfully low considering the original jocks at WLS in 1960 made more than that. I know that most of them at both stations made far more with their personal appearances, but $18K at a major market Top 40 in the late 60s sounds very low.

 

[DeltaDon]

The 1967 WCFL also had Dick Orkin and Bert Bertis who created Chickenman with Ron Brittain and Jim Runyon. If you don't believe that the 1972 era WCFL jocks were worse than the 67 crew, think about the jocks that most stick out in your mind when you try to remember. Many people don't remember that Lujack did the all night show on WCFL for six months until he was hired by WLS to do afternoons.One other issue that I would like to address is the audio processing in the 60s of both WCFL and WLS. WCFL had a great chief engineer named Jim Loupas but, compared to WABC, New York, both WLS and WCFL had incredibly flat, dead sounding audio.

You're right about Loupas but dead sounding audio? I always thought their 70's audio sounded pretty lively. They put reverb just on the top end so it didn't have the muddy reverb on the bottom like other stations.

You're welcome to your bias about late 60's CFL compared to early 70's CFL. Your CFL was a greater artistic success and more popular with people in radio but the 70's version was a bigger commercial success and more popular with regular listeners.

For someone who uses truth as part of their handle, you played fast and loose with a couple of your "facts." Bert Berdis (spelled with a "d" not a "t") and Ron Britain (spelled with one "t") had nothing to do with the original Chickenman. Berdis did take part in the second revival of Chickenman in 1977 but that had nothing to do with WCFL and I don't think he ever worked there. I believe Dick & Bert found each other in California while working on the Tim Conway Show in the early 1970's and formed a partnership that lasted almost ten years.

 

[kba]

Because the station was owned by the Chicago Federation of Labor, they had to have a bunch of extra employees that were union forced on them, that they didn't need. There was a separate record turner, board op and dj. Three people when the job could have been done by one.

That wasn't unique to WCFL. Several stations in Chicago - including WLS - had separate board ops and DJs. And WGN had record turners as late as the 1990's. They were members of the musician's union and were required because of a clause in the union contract that dated back to the days when stations had live orchestras. The contract said that any music - whether live or on a phonograph record - had to be played on the air by a union member. Even as stations transitioned to carts instead of records, a union record turner needed to dub the original record onto the cart.

 

[avtosalon]

The reality is that AM radio has been in a long state of decline starting with the growth of FM in the early 70s.

In the early 70's, most of the FM stations were airing different formats that did not compete with Top 40. I think the most common formats on FM at the time were beautiful music/easy listening, progressive rock, classical, and foreign language.

In the mid-70's, there was one Top 40 station that emerged on FM which took away listeners from both WCFL and WLS: WDHF. I remember WDHF did alot of advertising on TV, and their ratings were good. Top 40 fans enjoyed the better stereo sound, and the station sounded like the AM stations they had listened to.

Does anyone know if WDHF beat WCFL in the ratings?

 

[RADIO TRUTH]

You're right about Loupas but dead sounding audio? I always thought their 70's audio sounded pretty lively. They put reverb just on the top end so it didn't have the muddy reverb on the bottom like other stations.

You're welcome to your bias about late 60's CFL compared to early 70's CFL. Your CFL was a greater artistic success and more popular with people in radio but the 70's version was a bigger commercial success and more popular with regular listeners.

For someone who uses truth as part of their handle, you played fast and loose with a couple of your "facts." Bert Berdis (spelled with a "d" not a "t") and Ron Britain (spelled with one "t") had nothing to do with the original Chickenman. Berdis did take part in the second revival of Chickenman in 1977 but that had nothing to do with WCFL and I don't think he ever worked there. I believe Dick & Bert found each other in California while working on the Tim Conway Show in the early 1970's and formed a partnership that lasted almost ten years.

I stand corrected on the issue of Bert Berdis. I also will accept points off for misspelling of some names. Speaking of names, how about some of the WCFL jocks real names.....Ron Britain's real name was Ron Nagel, Joel Sebastian's real name was Joel Sleuth, Barney Pip's real name was Barney Pippenger.

Most of the information that I have talked about here came from a 27 year friendship with Barney Pip. We had many conversations about WCFL. I also visited WCFL as a teen in 1967 and saw most of the jocks do their shows. Ron Britain had a real Chinese gong.
It was not a carted sound effect. He actually hit it. I also spent some time with Ken Draper, Jim Loupas and John Webster. When I mentioned newscasters working for WCFL who ended up at the networks, I left out Michael O'neil. According to Barney, Ron Britain did have involvement with the original Chickenman with Jim Runyon and Dick Orkin. I don't know if anyone remembers Mary Sweeney who was the secretary for all the djs and a really nice person. Now let's clarify my audio processing comments. Circa 1967, both WCFL and WLS had incredibly flat, dead audio versus WABC, New York. WCFL and WLS finally did something with their audio chain, albeit late, around the early 70s. They both added more compression and sounded punchier but, still far inferior to WABC's audio chain. One other thing to think about, the WCFL of 1967 had one huge advantage over the WCFL of 1972 and 1973. The advantage
was much better current music. By 1972 and 1973, the current top forty music had gotten very boring versus the excitement of the 1964-1967, which was musically dynamic. Also, there were many current Chicago hits in 1967 by the Cryan' Shames, Shadows Of Knight, Buckinghams, New Colony Six and others that did not exist by 1972 with the exception of the group "Chicago" which did not "Make Me Smile".

 

[radioman148]

You're right about Loupas but dead sounding audio? I always thought their 70's audio sounded pretty lively. They put reverb just on the top end so it didn't have the muddy reverb on the bottom like other stations.

You're welcome to your bias about late 60's CFL compared to early 70's CFL. Your CFL was a greater artistic success and more popular with people in radio but the 70's version was a bigger commercial success and more popular with regular listeners.

For someone who uses truth as part of their handle, you played fast and loose with a couple of your "facts." Bert Berdis (spelled with a "d" not a "t") and Ron Britain (spelled with one "t") had nothing to do with the original Chickenman. Berdis did take part in the second revival of Chickenman in 1977 but that had nothing to do with WCFL and I don't think he ever worked there. I believe Dick & Bert found each other in California while working on the Tim Conway Show in the early 1970's and formed a partnership that lasted almost ten years.

I stand corrected on the issue of Bert Berdis. I also will accept points off for misspelling of some names. Speaking of names, how about some of the WCFL jocks real names.....Ron Britain's real name was Ron Nagel, Joel Sebastian's real name was Joel Sleuth, Barney Pip's real name was Barney Pippenger.

Most of the information that I have talked about here came from a 27 year friendship with Barney Pip. We had many conversations about WCFL. I also visited WCFL as a teen in 1967 and saw most of the jocks do their shows. Ron Britain had a real Chinese gong.
It was not a carted sound effect. He actually hit it. I also spent some time with Ken Draper, Jim Loupas and John Webster. When I mentioned newscasters working for WCFL who ended up at the networks, I left out Michael O'neil. According to Barney, Ron Britain did have involvement with the original Chickenman with Jim Runyon and Dick Orkin. I don't know if anyone remembers Mary Sweeney who was the secretary for all the djs and a really nice person. Now let's clarify my audio processing comments. Circa 1967, both WCFL and WLS had incredibly flat, dead audio versus WABC, New York. WCFL and WLS finally did something with their audio chain, albeit late, around the early 70s. They both added more compression and sounded punchier but, still far inferior to WABC's audio chain. One other thing to think about, the WCFL of 1967 had one huge advantage over the WCFL of 1972 and 1973. The advantage
was much better current music. By 1972 and 1973, the current top forty music had gotten very boring versus the excitement of the 1964-1967, which was musically dynamic. Also, there were many current Chicago hits in 1967 by the Cryan' Shames, Shadows Of Knight, Buckinghams, New Colony Six and others that did not exist by 1972 with the exception of the group "Chicago" which did not "Make Me Smile".

What stations did Joel Sebastian work at before CFL? I had heard he was from the Detroit area. Is that true?

 

[RADIO TRUTH]

Joel Sebastian worked at WLS before WCFL. He also got kind of screwed. He was hired by WINS in 1965 and was there when they changed format to become the first all news station. I am not sure if he worked in Detroit. I do know that he was a practicing attorney. I remember when he died of cancer, Barney told me that Sebastian's widow set up some kind of cancer fund in Sebastian's memory because Barney gave it a donation.