From Super CFL

[Prais]

cspot,
CHEAP wworked very well, thank you. I was in radio when you could make a great profit on a sale (sold my stuff in '85).

 

[RADIO TRUTH]

The comparison is unqualified. I listened to both in the 60's. The reverb and compressor may have been the same as they used, but
I know both sounded much BIGGER than the sample clips in the YouTube videos.
Did the audio in the youtubes even HAVE the ability to go over 100% modulation?
It's hard to sound huge without aysmmetric mod over 100%.


Perhaps a little less drive into the compressor would make it less squashed.

I did find some issues with "soundstage changes" due to compression in the audio of WLS and WCFL, but there weren't any stations that did not have this issue.

When I said that mid 60s WCFL and WLS had flat, dead audio processing with little compression and no reverb, this was in comparison to many other top forty stations at the same time who had an EMT 140 plate reverb and used much more compression with a Fairchild 660 compressor for much denser audio. Chicago radio audio processing in the mid 60s always sounded flater, deader and blander than many other markets at the same time. The statement was made to show a comparison between such stations as WABC, WMCA, WQAM and others around the country versus WCFL and WLS. This is particularly interesting because both WABC and WLS were ABC o & o's and WABC's mid 60s audio was so much denser than WLS. I visited WCFL in 1967 and had a conversation with their chief engineer, Jim Loupas about this very topic.

 

[Tom Wells]

The comparison is unqualified. I listened to both in the 60's. The reverb and compressor may have been the same as they used, but
I know both sounded much BIGGER than the sample clips in the YouTube videos.
Did the audio in the youtubes even HAVE the ability to go over 100% modulation?
It's hard to sound huge without aysmmetric mod over 100%.


Perhaps a little less drive into the compressor would make it less squashed.

I did find some issues with "soundstage changes" due to compression in the audio of WLS and WCFL, but there weren't any stations that did not have this issue.

When I said that mid 60s WCFL and WLS had flat, dead audio processing with little compression and no reverb, this was in comparison to many other top forty stations at the same time who had an EMT 140 plate reverb and used much more compression with a Fairchild 660 compressor for much denser audio. Chicago radio audio processing in the mid 60s always sounded flater, deader and blander than many other markets at the same time. The statement was made to show a comparison between such stations as WABC, WMCA, WQAM and others around the country versus WCFL and WLS. This is particularly interesting because both WABC and WLS were ABC o & o's and WABC's mid 60s audio was so much denser than WLS. I visited WCFL in 1967 and had a conversation with their chief engineer, Jim Loupas about this very topic.

And this topic is dear to my heart, as I experiment with loud vs BIG in my own Pt 15 AM. You can't just be loud. You have to leave enough room to
sound big "in". That is why "optimal density" is anyone's guess or preference. I believe the "less processing" they were "guilty of" allowed the wham, thud, and punch of the music to come right through, and the plate-modulated rigs running +150% mod allowed the listener to hear that punch on
radios of the day with passive diode detection. The same less/more treacherous line is also seen in use of reverb, where too much is too much, and
if you're "too loud", there's no room left to hear the reverb in. The trick is to not leave any room left in the modulation envelope, but to fool the ear into making it think you did.

I think the WABC had too much reverb, the West coast didn't like it at all, here in Chicago it was done "just right".
You didnt NEED to buy a car reverb here in the 60's and 70's. The station did it for you.
And when done right, with room for the punch, and the right level of reverb, it sounds gigantic at any volume level.
Not just loud, but huge sounding, and there's a big difference.

 

[RADIO TRUTH]

And this topic is dear to my heart, as I experiment with loud vs BIG in my own Pt 15 AM. You can't just be loud. You have to leave enough room to
sound big "in". That is why "optimal density" is anyone's guess or preference. I believe the "less processing" they were "guilty of" allowed the wham, thud, and punch of the music to come right through, and the plate-modulated rigs running +150% mod allowed the listener to hear that punch on
radios of the day with passive diode detection. The same less/more treacherous line is also seen in use of reverb, where too much is too much, and
if you're "too loud", there's no room left to hear the reverb in. The trick is to not leave any room left in the modulation envelope, but to fool the ear into making it think you did.

I think the WABC had too much reverb, the West coast didn't like it at all, here in Chicago it was done "just right".
You didnt NEED to buy a car reverb here in the 60's and 70's. The station did it for you.
And when done right, with room for the punch, and the right level of reverb, it sounds gigantic at any volume level.
Not just loud, but huge sounding, and there's a big difference.

This subject is also near and dear to my heart. I guess it is a matter of personal taste. I have a very fond spot in my heart for WCFL for many reasons and especially because Barney Pip was a close friend. Having said that, after hearing the mid 60s sound of WABC, every other radio station sounded small by comparison. WABC had more density and more bass. It sounded bigger than life. I cannot say that about WCFL or WLS at the same point in history. My engineer and I have done a good deal of research to replicate
the mid 60s sound of WABC today but, with better frequency response. There are really three elements in the audio chain in this order. 1-eq 2-plate reverb 3-compression It then gets interesting because of the proper eq settings, reverb settings, compressor
gain reduction settings and the question of which compressor to use. Current compressors cannot give you that sound. You have to use vintage compressors and replace all the capacitors with current capacitors to get the high end frequency response that old capacitors could not give. I guess if we worked together we would be constantly arguing about the audio chain. Next we can talk about phase relationship problems on stereo versions of 50s and 60s music.

 

[Tom Wells]

I doubt we'd be arguing, if we're both trying to bring the huge fat sound to AM.

I'm pretty happy with 192 k files through Breakaway Broadcast Processor, followed by an ART Pro VLA in two passes of the mono signal.
Breakaway gives me very satisfying multiband AGC, and the VLA makes the audio "wet" .
The audio to the reverb (on a side chain) does not get the VLA, uses a long Hammond spring, and feeds into a separate input of the
class A triode tube modulator. There the two audio signals mix and get passed onto the actual modulator tube.
There's no iron anywhere, the 150% asymmetric mod of Breakaway combined with the class A and the overcapacity built into the design makes it sound like anything but 100mw. I'm trying to sound like WLS and WCFL did on hot summer nights in 1970 or so.
When I listen to my signal a few blocks away at night, and the Troggs sing "I Can't Control Myself", it gives me shivers. That's good.
Good enough that I'm not sure if I want to go to the trouble of building a plate reverb.

I'd love to hear more of your processing experiments, hopefully some recorded from an actual radio.

 

[RADIO TRUTH]

I doubt we'd be arguing, if we're both trying to bring the huge fat sound to AM.

I'm pretty happy with 192 k files through Breakaway Broadcast Processor, followed by an ART Pro VLA in two passes of the mono signal.
Breakaway gives me very satisfying multiband AGC, and the VLA makes the audio "wet" .
The audio to the reverb (on a side chain) does not get the VLA, uses a long Hammond spring, and feeds into a separate input of the
class A triode tube modulator. There the two audio signals mix and get passed onto the actual modulator tube.
There's no iron anywhere, the 150% asymmetric mod of Breakaway combined with the class A and the overcapacity built into the design makes it sound like anything but 100mw. I'm trying to sound like WLS and WCFL did on hot summer nights in 1970 or so.
When I listen to my signal a few blocks away at night, and the Troggs sing "I Can't Control Myself", it gives me shivers. That's good.
Good enough that I'm not sure if I want to go to the trouble of building a plate reverb.

I'd love to hear more of your processing experiments, hopefully some recorded from an actual radio.

If you would send me a private message on this site with your phone number, I would be happy to call you and talk about all of this stuff with you. I have plenty of time to talk in the evening and late at night.