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FRUSTRATED BY ALL THE NEW LPFM/CLASS D TRANSLATORS

W

wxman76

This topic could go in several forums, but I posted this here as well as the FCC Policy Debate Forum.

Driving around the country, I have noticed that there are a lot of new stations broadcasting at 250 watts or less, either as a Class D Translator or a LPFM. While I know that most people don't try to tune in out of market stations, but as a DXer this is starting to get out of control to me. I am not just talking about stations that are 100+ miles away though. For example in my market, there is a 250 watt class D that is at 97.9. It shares the same frequency as a Class C 100kW station that broadcasts at 2,000 feet above ground level that is 80 miles away. Even though its 80 miles away, with a signal THAT strong and goes out a long ways, what used to be a listenable signal on many radios has now been stomped on. The part that I don't get is why the FCC allowed the permit at 97.9 but not 92.7, a much more open frequency with no stations that regularly come in and no locals between 92.3-93.1.

A couple of questions:

Does the someone from the FCC actually visit the market to get an actual evaluation of what would be the best frequency to put these low power stations, or are they pretty casual and just go off of estimated dB contour maps?

I know some of you are big supporters of LP community radio, but in your opinion how much is too much? Is it too much when a local non-commercial station starts to step all over a moderate out of market commercial signal?
 
Unfortunately, we are seeing the wholesale AM'ization of the FM band. For example, a Class B1 just signed on over in Indiana, wiping out one classical station (50 kW) over the entire Chicago area, and bothering another over in MI on the first adjacent channel. How can this happen, you ask? These stations are only protected to the 60 dBu contour. Pull up your station in the FCC FM query and you will see a map of their protected contour. Outside of that, FCC doesn't care if they had a listenable signal or not. It's fair game for anyone to come in and crap all over!
 
gr8oldies said:
The FCC's position has been for a while that no one has any right or reason to listen to out of market stations.
Click to expand...


except for the non-comms that are mostly the religious "out to save the world" folks which are mostly out of market originating.

It'd be nice to get some more application windows, but the economy as it is, the NCE's are the only ones with money to throw up new sticks, didn't the last commercial window end up with the fewest applications/money raked in?
 
In New York City, you'll be frustrated by all the PIRATE stations covering up out-of-market stations (and other pirate stations) on the second adjacents to the NYC stations. And also the daring pirates that broadcast on the first adjacents! The FCC's playing whack-a-mole, since when one shuts down, 2 replace it.
 
wxman76 said:
Does the someone from the FCC actually visit the market to get an actual evaluation of what would be the best frequency to put these low power stations, or are they pretty casual and just go off of estimated dB contour maps?
Click to expand...

No, the FCC works strictly from coverage contour predictions. They don't choose the frequency for low-power stations -- the station chooses the frequency, and if the FCC engineers agree that frequency won't cause interference, they approve it.

If you're talking about a LPFM station (as opposed to a translator), they must be at least 800KHz from stations with overlapping coverage, or obtain a 400KHz waiver. 600KHz waivers are not possible. (due to an Act of Congress) So if there's a station on 92.1 or 93.3 covering this area, the LPFM cannot use 92.7. (it could potentially use 92.5 or 92.9)

It's also possible there's a permit for a new station in the 92.3-93.1 range, or even an application on file. The LPFM/translator would be required to protect the new-station permit or previously-filed application.

I know some of you are big supporters of LP community radio, but in your opinion how much is too much? Is it too much when a local non-commercial station starts to step all over a moderate out of market commercial signal?
Click to expand...

These stations (the ones with licenses, not the pirates!) have been approved by the FCC. They meet established engineering standards. The standards are to some degree arbitrarily chosen. The radio in my car delivers perfectly listenable audio from a weak 35dBu signal. Do we protect every station that delivers 35dBu to Nashville? That would preclude half the stations operating in the Nashville market today.. and would leave people asking, "why can't we have a {enter your favorite format here} station when there are so many blank spaces on the dial?".
 
I now have 2 new Bible-thumping translators in my area. Believe it not, the translators and LPFMS aren't much of a problem to me.
But what was more frustrating to me is the adjacent interference hissing from IBOC from FM stations that use it, which was leading me to shift more toward AM DX especially in late fall and winter. It was the IBOC that took the fun out of FM DX. But there's nothing I can really do about it, might as well get used to it. Fortunately, I'm not too close to the FM IBOC stations as I am sometimes getting weak to stronger tropo from at least 100 miles away, when the FM DX makes it above the hiss.
 
This same exact original post was nailed to the wall in FCC POLICY DEBATE also by the same poster. (Sahme on you! :mad: )

I will not repeat here what I posted there but it parallels part of what is here.
 
Got a translator that's interfering with a station you listen to? Even if you're outside the protected contour you might get the translator shut down. It's in the rules!

PART 74--EXPERIMENTAL RADIO, AUXILIARY, SPECIAL BROADCAST AND OTHER PROGRAM DISTRIBUTIONAL SERVICES--Table of Contents

Subpart L--FM Broadcast Translator Stations and FM Broadcast Booster
Stations

Sec. 74.1203 Interference.

(a) An authorized FM translator or booster station will not be
permitted to continue to operate if it causes any actual interference
to:
(1) The transmission of any authorized broadcast station; or
(2) The reception of the input signal of any TV translator, TV
booster, FM translator or FM booster station; or
(3) The direct reception by the public of the off-the-air signals of
any authorized broadcast station including TV Channel 6 stations, Class
D (secondary) noncommercial educational FM stations, and previously
authorized and operating FM translators and FM booster stations.
Interference will be considered to occur whenever reception of a
regularly used signal is impaired by the signals radiated by the FM
translator or booster station, regardless of the quality of such
reception, the strength of the signal so used, or the channel on which
the protected signal is transmitted.
(b) If interference cannot be properly eliminated by the application
of suitable techniques, operation of the offending FM translator or
booster station shall be suspended and shall not be resumed until the
interference has been eliminated. Short test transmissions may be made
during the period of suspended operation to check
the efficacy of remedial measures. If a complainant refuses to permit
the FM translator or booster licensee to apply remedial techniques which
demonstrably will eliminate the interference without impairment to the
original reception, the licensee of the FM translator or booster station
is absolved of further responsibility for that complaint.
 
You need to send your complaint to the station that's being interfered with. They file the complaint with the FCC, not you.
Also send a copy of complaint letter to the owner of the translator.
 
boiseengineer said:
Got a translator that's interfering with a station you listen to? Even if you're outside the protected contour you might get the translator shut down. It's in the rules!

PART 74--EXPERIMENTAL RADIO, AUXILIARY, SPECIAL BROADCAST AND OTHER PROGRAM DISTRIBUTIONAL SERVICES--Table of Contents

Subpart L--FM Broadcast Translator Stations and FM Broadcast Booster
Stations

Sec. 74.1203 Interference.

(a) An authorized FM translator or booster station will not be
permitted to continue to operate if it causes any actual interference
to:
(1) The transmission of any authorized broadcast station; or
(2) The reception of the input signal of any TV translator, TV
booster, FM translator or FM booster station; or
(3) The direct reception by the public of the off-the-air signals of
any authorized broadcast station including TV Channel 6 stations, Class
D (secondary) noncommercial educational FM stations, and previously
authorized and operating FM translators and FM booster stations.
Interference will be considered to occur whenever reception of a
regularly used signal is impaired by the signals radiated by the FM
translator or booster station, regardless of the quality of such
reception, the strength of the signal so used, or the channel on which
the protected signal is transmitted.
(b) If interference cannot be properly eliminated by the application
of suitable techniques, operation of the offending FM translator or
booster station shall be suspended and shall not be resumed until the
interference has been eliminated. Short test transmissions may be made
during the period of suspended operation to check
the efficacy of remedial measures. If a complainant refuses to permit
the FM translator or booster licensee to apply remedial techniques which
demonstrably will eliminate the interference without impairment to the
original reception, the licensee of the FM translator or booster station
is absolved of further responsibility for that complaint.
Click to expand...
Someone needs to Petition the Commission to apply this logic to IBOC transmissions.
 
boiseengineer said:
You need to send your complaint to the station that's being interfered with. They file the complaint with the FCC, not you.
Also send a copy of complaint letter to the owner of the translator.
Click to expand...

Yes, it does work. Here's a recent example from Austin TX, where a new translator was causing interference to 100kW KSMG Seguin (near San Antonio):
https://licensing.fcc.gov/cdbs/CDBS...?appn=101367853&qnum=5110&copynum=1&exhcnum=3

I'm impressed with the way Entercom has handled this.
 
I personally wouldn't mind seeing the spacing rules changed. There are some places where I can get 2 AM stations on the same frequency at noon, for example. Personally, I'd prefer that no matter how low the noise is where you are, or how good of an antenna you're using, you should not be able to hear 2 stations on the same frequency. I'm not sure if the limiting factor would be atmospheric noise or galactic noise, though, but I think just setting it up so the contours AT the noise level don't overlap just isn't good enough.
I just ran a little test in Audacity, where I generated white noise at full scale, and a 4kHz sine wave tone, and reduced the volume on it until I couldn't hear it anymore. With mono noise, I was starting to lose the ability to hear the tone turning on and off at around -30dB +/-6dB, with stereo noise that threshold was approximately -27dB, and with both noise sources turned on it was about -21dB or so. Also, I suspect I probably don't have the best ears God has given to anyone, so to allow for a bit of a buffer, I would prefer that the contours that are 36 to 48 dB below the atmospheric or galactic noise should not overlap. Oh, and man-made noise (that's not intended to be radiated as a radio signal for some reason - computer power supply noise would fall into this category, but WiFi would not, for example) in my opinion should be at least 36dB below the atmospheric or galactic noise measured at the exterior surface of the device generating the noise. :)
Now, are there any other sources of noise or interference I haven't thought of? ;)
 
A serious DXer needs a decent setup. This means a good directional antenna
and rotor for FM. You can then null out semi locals, LPFMs, and translators.

With rabbit ears, you will think 100 miles is DX. With a good setup you
will get 300 miles on FM almost daily instead.

But, radio DX is no longer as exciting as it once was. Why? The stations
all sound alike today and I can hear them perfectly on the internet.
 
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