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full digtial AM test proposed for IBOC

"Is anyone old enough to remember The Last Radio Station? I heard it on my LW receiver in 1973."

Well, WGU20 was apparently shut down in 1990, so technically I'd be old enough to remember it. But I didn't actually find out about longwave itself until several years later, about the same time I found out about shortwave! (My first SW radio, a secondhand Realistic DX360, also had a LW tuner.)

Are there even any audio recordings of WGU20 in its "golden era" floating about the network? Youtube's results are really pathetic.

"EBS and EAS have never had to work in a time of emergency and if the circumstances are dire enough for someone to attempt to activate EAS, it is very likely the system would fail."

That's not entirely accurate. I've been in eastern WA and OR during forest fire season and have heard evacuation warnings go out over the local EB/AS outlets (you know, the usual "get outta Dodge within the hour or Mother Nature'll reduce you to a smouldering chunk of carbon" kind of business) or even back in my part of the state during flood season. They really should have said
"EBS and EAS have never had to work in a time of national emergency...",
since I'd personally consider an out-of-control forest fire that's getting big enough to reduce your entire town to a pile of cllinkers to be a pretty significant emergency!
 
Sitting here in the middle of a thunderstorm. My NOAA weather radio has not gone off so I figure not to worry about this. But when it goes off at 3:00AM (like it did the other night), it gets my attention fast. I rely on NOAA rather than broadcast.
 
Getting back on topic, didn't Ibquity have a test station on 1650 (or thereabouts) in the DC area for HD testing? Wonder if the experimental license could be resurrected for a one time test at full power. I can almost convince myself that an HD signal at 10 times the currrent power would really get coverage.
 
ai4i said:
Nick said:
I've heard Radio Disney on a wideband AM stereo receiver, and couldn't tell the difference between that and FM.
I've heard Radio Disney on a modern iBOC radio and they sounded better than FM :p
Really? Do you have something you can post? Even 30 seconds can tell us if AM-HD really sounds as good as FM. Post us a file so we can hear for ourselves.

IOW: CALL! :-* ;)
 
Surely, would you like to sample it in 8 kbps or 16 kbps ???
 
ai4i said:
Surely, would you like to sample it in 8 kbps or 16 kbps ???

320kbit mp3 or 192kbit AAC if not FLAC. Something, in your humble opinion, that is worthy of AM-HD.

So stop stalling and BRING IT! :p :)
 
I just need to stall until I can figure out what software I need to find and what to do with it.
Sorry, I might have to resurrect my old signature message which I had been using everywhere for years, "ai4I is always on the trailing edge of technology".
 
"320K MP3 or 192K AAC, if not FLAC. Something, in your humble opinion, that is worthy of AM-HD."

Nope, 384K CBR MP2 @ 44100Hz or 48000Hz, if not uncompressed 16-bit PCM in either of those same sampling rates! I wouldn't dare use MP3 for anything except, maybe, speech. (And even then it's debatable whether or not that particular codec would actually be the one I choose....)

If you want to do things on the "trailling edge" (and I can't say I blame you) you should try this little "oldie-but-goody" audio programme; it has an MP1/2/3 encoder built in, and also seems to work properly under WINE:
http://www.din.or.jp/~ch3/scmpx_e.html (F.Y.I.: Don't be offended if you happen to get mooned by Pikachu.)
 
ai4i said:
Mandate NOAA reception...that is a dedicated emergency information distribution network put in place for that reason.

This, I could get behind.

Didn't one of the recent Cadillac models include NOAA reception in the entertainment system? I seem to recall a regional meteorologist mentioning it as proof that NWS weather radio in cars would work. Just add the SAME programming (and link it GPS so it updates automatically where ever you drive) and it would be a pretty useful tool for drivers.
 
I do know some of the older Subaru models had it on the factory-stock Clarion radios, particularly the late-90s first-generation "Outback"-series cars. My Dad's 2001 Dodge Dakota also had it on its original factory radio (he's since replaced it with an aftermarket Kenwood.)

Can't tell you a thing about Cadillacs, though.
 
satech said:
Darth_vader said:
Can't tell you a thing about Cadillacs, though.
I do recall some Cadillac stereos which had NOAA Weather band, C-Quam AM Stereo, and I believe even RDS on FM.

My 2000 Cadillac DeVille can do all that.  It's very useful to listen to NOAA on the go (it's labeled with the chronological channel numbers; KGG68 is channel 2 in the car, channel 1 on the Sangean DT-400W).  I can listen to WLS in stereo whenever I am in Chicagoland and get KUHF's RDS with its call letters (including erroneous(?) FM suffix) and the program type set to the previous "Classical" format.  (I ought to call the KUHF transmitter engineers about changing the program type from "Classical" to "Public"; I found K-Earth 101 while in L.A. because of that feature and more Houstonians may discover NPR because of that).

Are there any cars that can receive Weather radio along with standard AM/FM or FM only?
 
Do you mean, like, playing the MW or FM station out one speaker and the NOAA station out the other, simultaneously? Can't say I've ever heard of any radios that c/would do *that*.....
 
ajc_trw said:
ai4i said:
Nick said:
I've heard Radio Disney on a wideband AM stereo receiver, and couldn't tell the difference between that and FM.
I've heard Radio Disney on a modern iBOC radio and they sounded better than FM :p
Really? Do you have something you can post? Even 30 seconds can tell us if AM-HD really sounds as good as FM. Post us a file so we can hear for ourselves.

IOW: CALL! :-* ;)

AM HD sounds like krap, it's very artificial sounding with over sibilant highs. Anyone who thinks it sounds like analog FM needs their ears examined.
The reason Disney sounds bad on wideband receivers is because they broadcast in IBOC and their frequency response is seriously lacking in highs and lows kind of like an old carbon telephone. I open up my R-390 (not an A model, no mechanical filters) to it's 16 kHz position and some analog AM stations sound really good.
 
TimeIsTight said:
Besides, what "advantages" do stations on the AM band have over FM stations?

One major advantage the AM band offers is range, and reach. Here in the NYC area the 50-kw AMs are listenable at much longer distances than the FMs.

That does not apply here in Class C country. The Houston full-power FMs can be heard reliably on a car radio for about 150 miles. AM is susceptible to lightning crashes every-other-second as I learned listening to KTRH during Hurricane Ike almost 4 years ago.

AM frequencies also offer the benefit of skywave in a "real" national emergency. The entire country could be covered with a relative handful of 50-kw stations on clear channels at night.

Skywave can work both ways. It works against in the Houston market since the patterns were plotted before the Sunbelt's growth. Nighttime choices differ in each suburb and there is high noise in the S/N ratio on many stations. It has been said that Houston is the second worst nighttime market, after Washington D.C., home of the FCC and the rest of the Federal Government.

Some FM stations with their transmitters on tall city buildings don't have access to the required backup generators because flammable fuel isn't allowed inside the buildings.

On the other hand, the AM transmitters, out in the swamps, can have huge diesel backup generators and lots of room to store emergency fuel.
If you're worried about 9/11 and the World Trade Center, that does not apply here in Texas since the full-power FMs (along with the DTs) are located on antenna farms. Houston's antenna farm consists of 5-7 towers, each about 500-600 m tall, and can be seen by the naked eye for at least 30 km in all directions. KUHF is probably the most powerful NPR station in the South by both HAAT and ERP.

All your assertions are Class B-centric!!!
 
All your assertions are Class B-centric!!!

Yes, that may be mostly true! But, if you want to assure the best emergency backup system you design it to work best everywhere especially in the most difficult situations.

Without going through all the statistics, there are many tens of millions of Americans who live in Class-B only areas. People from Class-C areas may be traveling in Class-B only areas and only have a cell phone in their pockets. The object is to make sure the communications system reaches the maximum number of Americans in a crisis.

Skywave can work both ways. It works against in the Houston market since the patterns were plotted before the Sunbelt's growth.

The point is, that when all else fails, even in the most remote parts of the country, nighttime skywave signals from far out of the market can still be received on MW radios. Even with lots of urban electrical interference, and the standard IBOC problems there are still dozens of night-time skywave signals that are listenable in the NYC area. 50-kw WOR-AM 710 spits out IBOC hash, and 50-kw WABC 770 has spit out IBOC hash and I have been a few miles from both transmitters and had no problem listening to AM-740 from Toronto, a non-directional 50-kw station 350-miles away. In fact, that station can be clearly heard most nights of the year in the New York area, as can several other Canadian 50-kw stations.

You have to remember that in potential crises where the power grid is taken down, as with storms, earthquakes etc., that the electrical noise problems, that usually hurt AM reception, all go away. And with fewer stations on the air, so do a lot of the co-channel, adjacent channel, and IBOC interference problems too.

On the other hand, if the power is still on, and all the local stations are still transmitting, you don't need skywave reception as an ultimate backup. But, you always have to plan for the worst case scenario.

In the NYC area, with its 15-20-million Americans, there are AM stations that are likely to be the last line of communications defense, as they have been in the past. If everybody in America has to pay a few extra cents every time they buy a new cell phone just so millions of Americans in metros like NYC have that extra protection, it's still worth the money to all. We're all in this together, and there is no way to tell in advance how all the "what ifs" will play out for anybody in any place.
 
TimeIsTight said:
Without going through all the statistics, there are many tens of millions of Americans who live in Class-B only areas.
Actually migration data shows that the Sunbelt (Class C country) is still growing. The South is the most populated region.

You have to remember that in potential crises where the power grid is taken down, as with storms, earthquakes etc., that the electrical noise problems, that usually hurt AM reception, all go away. And with fewer stations on the air, so do a lot of the co-channel, adjacent channel, and IBOC interference problems too.
Since you live in New York City, how about the steel-framed apartments and condos in Manhattan that inhibit MW? Most workers in America work in steel-framed skyscrapers and the second most common is a steel-framed low-rise. What will these people do when there is a disaster during working hours?

In the NYC area, with its 15-20-million Americans, there are AM stations that are likely to be the last line of communications defense, as they have been in the past. If everybody in America has to pay a few extra cents every time they buy a new cell phone just so millions of Americans in metros like NYC have that extra protection, it's still worth the money to all. We're all in this together, and there is no way to tell in advance how all the "what ifs" will play out for anybody in any place.
How many New Yorkers live within the 60 dBu signal of a FM? All 8 million in all 5 boroughs (plus some Jerseyites along the Hudson)! I believe there are rimshots in Long Island, Westchester County, and the North Jersey exburbs just like any other city (including my native Houston market). I don't know about the multipath conditions in Manhattan offices, but Missouri City towers penetrate Downtown Houston skyscrapers very well and the sprawl (and wood-framed housing stock) eliminates almost all multipath (and signal absorption) in the suburbs.

I think FM radios are sufficient and sensible in the cell-phone example.
 
I agree with TimeisTight, AM radio would be the last thing standing and makes the most sense because of skywave. If only Chicago was left with radio there are several Chicago AM's that could be received in most parts of the country.
 
how about the steel-framed apartments and condos in Manhattan that inhibit MW? Most workers in America work in steel-framed skyscrapers and the second most common is a steel-framed low-rise. What will these people do when there is a disaster during working hours?

They will do just what they did in previous situations like 9-11, and the three big power blackouts, they will walk out of the buildings and onto the street, and those with AM radios, particularly those tuned to the all news stations, will get the information they need about what is going on. In all these situations, there were only a few FM stations coming in from transmitters in New Jersey, while the important AMs stayed on the air. Some NY FMs now have backup transmitters a few blocks away from the Empire State Building on a building in Times Square with backup generators, but, obviously, the building isn't as tall and the signals don't go as far.

I don't know about the multipath conditions in Manhattan offices, but Missouri City towers penetrate Downtown Houston skyscrapers very well and the sprawl (and wood-framed housing stock) eliminates almost all multipath (and signal absorption) in the suburbs.

Depending on the station, and the building, many NYC FMs are not receivable in the building interior. I used to work across the street from the World Trade Center with a full view all the way up to the broadcast antenna on the North Tower. Even with very high quality FM receivers you could only get a signal if you left the radio near the window. That's the situation all the time, not just in emergencies. The 50-kw AM signals were not much different.

How many New Yorkers live within the 60 dBu signal of a FM? All 8 million in all 5 boroughs (plus some Jerseyites along the Hudson)!

There are 15-million people in the "official" NY Arbitron radio market, and the FM signals go past the market boundaries in all directions except on Eastern Long Island where some AM signals used to show up in the local embedded market ratings, but the NYC FMs did not, because FM signals don't go that far.

However, the big NYC AMs show up in in many adjacent markets during the day, including in Connecticut, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania, where several have shown up in the major market Philadelphia ratings for decades. Some of the AM stations can also be heard along the coast from Massachusetts to Delaware and beyond during the daytime. At night, the big NYC AMs cover 18-states and several Canadian provinces. The FM stations don't do any of that, and in a large scale national emergency would leave those extra listeners out of touch.

Actually migration data shows that the Sunbelt (Class C country) is still growing. The South is the most populated region.

Yes, but until everybody moves to Class-C country, we have to plan for Class-B populations.

I think FM radios are sufficient and sensible in the cell-phone example.

If it only costs pennies a cell phone, why not have both AM and FM, just in case? AM just has those extra benefits that many people may need, depending on what happens. So why exclude it?

In the case of a solar flare EMP, those old simple AM transmitters might have the best chance of survival. The towers are well grounded, and some co-located block house studios were built inside Faraday cages to save the audio engineers from constantly fighting RF problems, from their own transmitters, in their studio audio equipment. All you need is a handful of 50-kw stations to cover the country should more complicated modern equipment become instant toast, especially those devices connected to the grid or other wired networks.

My personal view is that AM is a technology that is rapidly becoming outdated, and where it stands depends on the market, and the signal power. Let's not forget that this thread is about testing a digital MW replacement for Ancient Modulation. For emergency communications full power digital would have all the strengths of AM, remote transmitters with backup generators and the potential of lots of stored fuel, greater signal coverage in many markets, and skywave coverage of much larger areas at night.

Right now, when it comes to new generations of cell phones it doesn't have to be AM or FM, when for pennies it can be both. If MW goes full power digital, future phone generations can be made to receive those signals. The idea is to have as many options as you can, just in case. Because you won't know, until it's too late, which options will still work.
 
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