FULL SERVICE MOR

[imhomerjay]

Making up a demo that isn't how media buyers, well, buy, cuts out any national buys right out of the gate.

But that aside, there are few 35 or 45 year olds who would listen to such music. 65 would be the young end of the actual listening audience, and that's being generous.

Full service is close to extinct, and isn't coming back. Look, I grew up with a full service MOR playing in he house every day, but the world was different then. I couldn't get any news headline I wanted from a plethora of TV options, let alone my computer or phone. Ditto weather, and traffic specific to my drive, not routes I never take. Hourly newscasts? No, just play the music, please. I'll get my own information.

 

[Chuck]

Full service is close to extinct, and isn't coming back. Look, I grew up with a full service MOR playing in he house every day, but the world was different then. I couldn't get any news headline I wanted from a plethora of TV options, let alone my computer or phone. Ditto weather, and traffic specific to my drive, not routes I never take. Hourly newscasts? No, just play the music, please. I'll get my own information.

Not to mention what "full service" costs. If Arbitron is right, such a station would be incredibly lucky to get a 1.0 in the ratings. That can be a good niche to be in, but there is no room to be the last of the big time spenders. It is very doubtful that adding a lot of bells and whistles would radically change your listener-ship. That correlates directly with your income. If you spend more than you take in, you will eventually go broke, or succumb to being “All Infomercials, All Of The Time.” Let's face it, radio is a business. It is OK to do something that will not make you rich, but doing something that loses lots of money is not on the table.

 

[jmtillery]

Making up a demo that isn't how media buyers, well, buy, cuts out any national buys right out of the gate.

But that aside, there are few 35 or 45 year olds who would listen to such music. 65 would be the young end of the actual listening audience, and that's being generous.

Full service is close to extinct, and isn't coming back. Look, I grew up with a full service MOR playing in he house every day, but the world was different then. I couldn't get any news headline I wanted from a plethora of TV options, let alone my computer or phone. Ditto weather, and traffic specific to my drive, not routes I never take. Hourly newscasts? No, just play the music, please. I'll get my own information.

Thank you for your opinion as it is very much appreciated.

Although for the most part I understand the point you are attempting to make, part of what you are conveying is a little confusing to me. Based on what I believe I understand correctly from you, I offer the following response:

For starters when did Adults 35 – 64 become a made up demographic? It’s a very real demo which is the same demo most very successful – AND PROFITABLE - news-talk outlets target and attract. And these news-talk stations are getting national buys with a 35- 64 adult demo. Maybe they didn’t get the memo that specifies that adults 35 – 64 is an undesirable national buy and these stations just simply moved forward and sold adults 35 – 64 to the national agencies anyway despite the fact the agencies didn’t want the demo.

Also, most of the music in my sample playlist is from the 70s. Since when did the classic hits from the 1970s become an exclusive 65 + target demo music format? I’m nowhere near 65. I was in my teens in the 70s listening to 70s Top 40. Although a person 65 or older may enjoy listening to music from the 70s, a person in their 40s will also listen to 70s music because the hits from the 70s and 80s is their music.

As for not wanting news and information on the radio because it is available from other sources, again, the highly rated news-talk and even all news stations apparently did not get that memo, either, that radio listeners just want music. Perhaps one day the highly successful and highly profitable all-news outlets such as WCBS, WTOP, WBBM, WINS, KNX and KYW will get the hint and flip format to music so these stations can finally reap the benefits of success since radio listeners don’t want news and information from the radio.

Sidebar: All News WTOP is the highest billing radio station in the country, so apparently someone still tunes into the radio for news.

Regarding full service ever returning to the airwaves, it never left the radio dial. There just are not as many MOR / Full service stations on the air today as there were 30, 40, 50 years ago. Why? There are several reasons, but mainly because when consolidation took place in the 1990s, the acquiring companies took on massive debt to acquire or create large radio clusters in major and medium markets. One of the first orders of business was to slash expenses which started, in many cases, in the news department. This is why news and information is found mostly on stations that specialize in news which are news-talk and all news – as opposed to finding any meaningful news presence on predominantly music stations.

 

[jmtillery]

It is very doubtful that adding a lot of bells and whistles would radically change your listener-ship.

It is the lack of the "bells and whistle" on the radio today that make music only stations essentially boring. So often I hear complaints about how radio is bland and has no personality. Give the market place a reason to listen, and the marketplace will listen. Just loading 300 songs in the automation system and leaving it on autopilot doesn't give anyone a reason go listen very long, especially when one can program an ipod or ipad to play the exact tunes in the exact order one wants without ever pushing the "on" button on any radio receiver.

 

[semoochie]

I didn't touch on the concept of 35-64 because the discussion was mostly about unrated markets.

 

[imhomerjay]

Stations built on a news or news/talk model are by definition different than music stations. Some top of the hour news, a cheap national service or local headline reader, on many talk stations would naturally appeal to a good chunk of people tuning in to a format devoted to conversation about the day's events. Likewise, there tends to be room for one (two in the biggest of the big) markets to do news full time. That is not the same as a news department in the midst of a grab bag of other elements.

With generally few exceptions, full service has passed on as people have gravitated to something that delivers primarily one thing. Yes, the rock station here or there has sports, and many music intensive stations throw in some traffic and perhaps a few quick headlines in morning drive, but by and large, you aren't going to find people who want their chosen music interrupted for five-plus minutes of news every hour, or some creaky old rehashing of decades old radio dramas or the local "swap shop" programs/town council meetings/etc.

 

[Chuck]

It is the lack of the "bells and whistle" on the radio today that make music only stations essentially boring. So often I hear complaints about how radio is bland and has no personality. Give the market place a reason to listen, and the marketplace will listen. Just loading 300 songs in the automation system and leaving it on autopilot doesn't give anyone a reason go listen very long, especially when one can program an ipod or ipad to play the exact tunes in the exact order one wants without ever pushing the "on" button on any radio receiver.

I didn't say you have to be boring, bland or eliminate local interest. Unfortunately, a lot of stations ignore those things. You can even get network news that doesn't cost a fortune. Doing local news is harder, but not impossible. It will cost money to do, which means you need sponsor support to make it happen. That isn’t as easy as it sounds.

A few weeks ago I took a survey of our station’s listeners. We got lots of responses. We run business news at the top of the hour from the wall Street Journal. We have also experimented with local news, but it turned out to be more of a burden than our small staff could deal with. One of the questions on the survey was "Should we add more news and information?" The overwhelming response (almost 85%) said "no." I think the audience has spoken.

 

[jmtillery]

One of the questions on the survey was "Should we add more news and information?" The overwhelming response (almost 85%) said "no." I think the audience has spoken.

Fair enough. I appreciate your opinion and comments. However, what you left out in your survey assessment results given herein is you didn't give reference to your station(s) format(s) nor target demographic. You also didn't give reference to your general geographical location and market size. That makes a big difference regarding who does and who does not want the additional features I mentioned. Keep in mind the topic of this thread is Full Service MOR which has a much different music style and target demo than most other formats. And, from what I am understanding based on your description of your stations, and not knowing which stations you are with nor the formats, it appears you are already fairly much providing the feautures I'm suggesting, such as national news, local headlines, business news, sports and traffic, even if only on a smaller scale.

 

[jmtillery]

by and large, you aren't going to find people who want their chosen music interrupted for five-plus minutes of news every hour, or some creaky old rehashing of decades old radio dramas or the local "swap shop" programs/town council meetings/etc.

Once again, thank you for your comments and opinion. It is always appreciated.

Overall I will agree with your assessment; however, I respectfully disagree with your implied blanket statement that "one size fits all". If we are talking about a 100kw music intensive FM, the "creaky old decades old radio dramas" would create a culture shock and "train wreck" with the listening audience. Hence, the two do not fit together on the same station. And I never suggested nor implied these two would ever fit together.

However, these programs may, and the operative is "may" [not to be confused with absolute] contribute positively on an adult standards formatted station, keeping in mind who is the target audience and target demo.

While this thread is not about music intensive FM with music interruptions nor adult standards with “creaky old radio dramas”, it is about Full Service MOR which most likely will work much better in a smaller market but may have some viability in larger markets. Again, this is dependent on the general overall predominant demographic make-up within the community being served.

Once again, this isn't a blanket "one size fits all". Instead, as with any format, the station direction should be decided on a case-by-case analysis. The medium plays an important role as well such as is the station AM or FM. It is a full market signal or does it have a rimshot signal. The list goes on.

Again, I appreciate your input. Differing points of views and persuasive constructive argument forces one to use critical thinking to defend and support ones perspective.

 

[imhomerjay]

One of the most telling things is that "full service MOR" largely died off. Not entirely, but largely. Given the era of its greatest popularity, it's natural the vast majority of the most successful stations employing some type of format that fit within the paramater were on AM. But unlike, say, hit music, that migrated over to the better sound of FM, MOR essentially gave way to AC stations (which have themselves evolved as the audience has changed).

Where is there evidence of a strong desire for that kind of format in this day and age? With all of the fierce competition to find an edge over "the other guy," how many successful efforts have there been to launch such a format?

Not many.

MOR excelled at doing a little something for everyone. But the days of that have long passed for the bulk of the audience. You're not going to get any appreciable number of people to come over to AM for music if you put it there, with very limited exceptions. That has been demonstrated time and again. So that question that leads to is...just how would such an operation--one that's pretty much by definition going to be more expensive than a music or satellite-fed station--going to turn a profit?

Perhaps someone who treats it as a hobby would be content with making peanuts, and good for them. But in the larger picture, that's typically not a business model most people looking for a return on their investment would find appealing.

 

[jmtillery]

One of the most telling things is that "full service MOR" largely died off. Not entirely, but largely. Given the era of its greatest popularity, it's natural the vast majority of the most successful stations employing some type of format that fit within the paramater were on AM. But unlike, say, hit music, that migrated over to the better sound of FM, MOR essentially gave way to AC stations (which have themselves evolved as the audience has changed).

Where is there evidence of a strong desire for that kind of format in this day and age? With all of the fierce competition to find an edge over "the other guy," how many successful efforts have there been to launch such a format?

Not many.

MOR excelled at doing a little something for everyone. But the days of that have long passed for the bulk of the audience. You're not going to get any appreciable number of people to come over to AM for music if you put it there, with very limited exceptions. That has been demonstrated time and again. So that question that leads to is...just how would such an operation--one that's pretty much by definition going to be more expensive than a music or satellite-fed station--going to turn a profit?

Perhaps someone who treats it as a hobby would be content with making peanuts, and good for them. But in the larger picture, that's typically not a business model most people looking for a return on their investment would find appealing.

You make excellent and valid points. And, if I understand you correctly, what you are saying is those who listen for news don’t want the music interruptions between the news, information and features. Likewise those who enjoy the music do not want the newscast interruptions between music sets.

Interestingly two days ago the only issue being taken with the format was one song. Two days later issue is being taken with the entire format. I agree the format would not become the new innovative radio format of the 21st century; however, I believe it fills a market void under select circumstances. And, yes, traditional MOR has morphed into mainstream adult contemporary which is a format of itself. I understand that having been directly involved in radio broadcasting for several years.

Having stated that, two questions come to mind.

1) What is your opinion of introducing any of the news features, suggested earlier, on an adult standards formatted station? Why will it work or why will it not work?

AND

2) What is your opinion of The Avenue? Although it is being billed as Timeless Cool, how would you describe The Avenue and what is your opinion of its long term success potential? Does it have more success possibilities on AM, FM or both, and why?

 

[pioneer71]

WMNI Radio is an Adult Standards station using Dial Global 24/7 with local news anchors. I believe stations like them can be closer to what you have been looking for by adding a local moring show and hopefully a local afternoon show. For an Adut Standards or MOR station to work you need the local talent on the air to talk about and be part of the community.

It is vital to provide the features you have mentioned as part of the mix.

In reference to the music mix I would not play the Dean Martins and Perry Comos songs with the new MOR sound. You need to play the " Hits' on the MOR 2011 version. TimeLess Cool ,The Classics ,I believe is better suited for FM because they are going for the over music sound and not always playing the "Hits."

 

[klutch00]

WMNI Radio is an Adult Standards station using Dial Global 24/7 with local news anchors. I believe stations like them can be closer to what you have been looking for by adding a local morning show and hopefully a local afternoon show. For an Adult Standards or MOR station to work you need the local talent on the air to talk about and be part of the community.

It is vital to provide the features you have mentioned as part of the mix.

In reference to the music mix I would not play the Dean Martin's and Perry Como's songs with the new MOR sound. You need to play the "Hits" on the MOR 2011 version. Timeless Cool ,The Classics, I believe is better suited for FM because they are going for the over music sound and not always playing the "Hits."

If FM hadn't gotten so dominant and commercialized, a format like 'Timeless Cool' could've made some headway on FM; but this is 2011, not the 1970s. About the only FM stations that could make a 'go' with this format are non-commercial and maybe suburban commercial facilities. Sorry, but FM stations today are looking for one thing: to make a quick and fast buck! Yeah, I know everyone in radio is looking to do that, but with the debt that so many of these major FMs have to service, a specialty format like Timeless Cool doesn't seem to be a way to cut it.

Now for a new 'pop-standards' sound to be successful IMNSHO, while it may not be the best thing to play some music by some of the old time crooners and 'croonettes' (my term for a female crooner), I wouldn't put all of it out to pasture. Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett have some viability; it might be prudent to be somewhat careful about what songs by Perry Como, Dean Martin, Rosemary Clooney and Patti Page I'd feature. I'd definitely be careful about featuring music by Pat Boone or Vikki Carr. I would definitely play music by modern crooners/croonettes such as Michael Buble, Harry Connick or Diana Krall. The song "Kissing a Fool" by George Michael would also be appropriate.

With a MOR format for today, I'd definitely say feature album cuts by artists such as Carole King, John Denver, Elton John and other appropriate artists, along with 'hits'.

 

[Chuck]

However, what you left out in your survey assessment results given herein is you didn't give reference to your station(s) format(s) nor target demographic. You also didn't give reference to your general geographical location and market size. That makes a big difference regarding who does and who does not want the additional features I mentioned. Keep in mind the topic of this thread is Full Service MOR which has a much different music style and target demo than most other formats. And, from what I am understanding based on your description of your stations, and not knowing which stations you are with nor the formats, it appears you are already fairly much providing the feautures I'm suggesting, such as national news, local headlines, business news, sports and traffic, even if only on a smaller scale.

No, I didn’t leave it out of the survey. The people who filled it out are very aware of our format, which is Standards & Oldies. Now you are too. We are in a smaller market, #148. The model for the station is indeed a 1960's era MOR. The target demo is folks 50 and up, although we seem to have quite a few kids who listen too. This people seem to know who they are.

We are locally programmed, so we are not at the mercy of Dial Global or Music of Your Life. That makes us sound much more relevant to our community than many other stations. Taking a satellite feed is easy, but I don’t think it truly reflects the needs of the community. If you want to listen to a bird, why not just subscribe to Sirius/XM, and be done with it?

We also stream on the Internet at www.kzqx.com or www.qx-fm.com. If I disregard the Internet listeners who responded, we still come out with a similar result. Most people don't like it when we interrupt the music for news and/or information. They really don't like it when we interrupt it for local sports, which is a traditional money maker for small stations.

I think this means we are in an age of specialization. There are roughly 35 stations in my market. These days I think you need to pick one thing and do it well. Although I'm flattered that quite a few people from all around the world choose to listen, I must pledge my loyalties to our local listeners.

 

[jmtillery]

No, I didn’t leave it out of the survey. The people who filled it out are very aware of our format, which is Standards & Oldies. Now you are too. We are in a smaller market, #148. The model for the station is indeed a 1960's era MOR. The target demo is folks 50 and up, although we seem to have quite a few kids who listen too. This people seem to know who they are.

We are locally programmed, so we are not at the mercy of Dial Global or Music of Your Life. That makes us sound much more relevant to our community than many other stations. Taking a satellite feed is easy, but I don’t think it truly reflects the needs of the community. If you want to listen to a bird, why not just subscribe to Sirius/XM, and be done with it?

We also stream on the Internet at www.kzqx.com or www.qx-fm.com. If I disregard the Internet listeners who responded, we still come out with a similar result. Most people don't like it when we interrupt the music for news and/or information. They really don't like it when we interrupt it for local sports, which is a traditional money maker for small stations.

I think this means we are in an age of specialization. There are roughly 35 stations in my market. These days I think you need to pick one thing and do it well. Although I'm flattered that quite a few people from all around the world choose to listen, I must pledge my loyalties to our local listeners.

Apparently I didn’t explain myself clearly. When I said you left out certain information, I meant you left it out of your comments you posted here on R-I. I was not inferring you omitted any relevant information in your actual survey. Additionally, I didn’t leave out any information regarding any particular stations or markets as this forum is presented in general terms regarding the format and is not about any particular market.

Also, thank you for the web and audio link. I did take a look at your website and I also listened online for about a half hour. The station sounds very good. You have done an excellent job in putting it all together, and obviously you are very successful with what you are doing. I also enjoyed the virtual station tour.

From your description, you are presenting your station the way I would do it, meaning it is locally programmed. Localism is what gives a person a reason to listen to terrestrial radio over satellite or ipods and ipads. Also, your format actually goes back much further than what I have in mind as the 1960s is about as far back as I would go.

Unless it is an absolute “turn-off” for the listener and advertiser, I would still present some local news and features to add to the mix. The amount of news content and type feature would be contingent upon the market size and available advertising dollars.

To be more specific, in my own situation, I am considering this type format on a local full-time AM station which has very good market coverage. To me a full service, or semi full service, MOR fomat is the best AM alternative rather than compete as the third tier news-talk outlet that in all probability would become a bottom feeder rather than excel in its target demo. No one in my market is providing any meaningful news content, so this is where I believe the station will shine while providing the music that will attract a decent portion of the adults 35 – 64. I don’t really want to be the “news leader” with second and third rate syndicated talk programming, so this is why I am considering MOR / adult contemporary.

 

[jmtillery]

It is vital to provide the features you have mentioned as part of the mix.

I completely agree...

 

[jmtillery]

With a MOR format for today, I'd definitely say feature album cuts by artists such as Carole King, John Denver, Elton John and other appropriate artists, along with 'hits'.

That is exactly what I had in mind with the exception of the occassional adult standards tune. These are all great artist with just the right sound to make a modern MOR sound appealing to the adult audience.

 

[semoochie]

OK, how about this?: Your core artists are Frank Sinatra, Andy Williams, Tony Bennett and Ray Conniff. Once an hour, you play a current by Katy Perry, Pink or Rhianna. How many listeners will you have by the third hour? OR You could reverse it. The local Hot AC drops in one of the former. It wouldn't even have to be once an hour. Once a day should do it. My point is that any at all is too much! No one under 70(and I think that's too low), in any appreciable amount, is going to listen!

 

[jmtillery]

OK, how about this?: Your core artists are Frank Sinatra, Andy Williams, Tony Bennett and Ray Conniff. Once an hour, you play a current by Katy Perry, Pink or Rhianna. How many listeners will you have by the third hour? OR You could reverse it. The local Hot AC drops in one of the former. It wouldn't even have to be once an hour. Once a day should do it. My point is that any at all is too much! No one under 70(and I think that's too low), in any appreciable amount, is going to listen!

I hope I’m wrong, but I think you either want to be argumentative, or perhaps you are playing devil's advocate. I'm under 70 by 20-years and I listen to all of the above and most definitely anyone in the 45 - 55 age group listens to 70s hits. To say no one under 70 will listen to songs by Carol King, Elton John and Al Stewart is highly debatable.

 

[imhomerjay]

We should always be cautious of extrapolating any of our individual tastes to " anyone" or "everyone."

But that aside, the 70s remains central to classic rock, greatest hits/classic hits, but to a lesser degree AC. Not gone from that format, but let's be realistic about the direction of the trends. And most of what remains, by and large, is the most popular, and uptempo, not the more obscure.

That would pose challenges in attracting a viable, note I don't say any, audience, particularly when you factor in the audience inherently not interested in the kind of mixed programming elements of full service.