Was WOWO in Ft. Wayne the only full time 50kw am in Indiana before WLIB in New York made the switch a few years ago. WIBC is daytime only, so I'm curious, When I look at other states, they may have 2 or more am stations that have a full time 50kw am'er. Was Indiana over looked, or was it just a missed opertunity way back when?
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Full Time 50kw AM in Indiana
- Thread starter radio lover
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J
jimbo700
Guest
Don't even get me started on the WOWO/WLIB travesty.
The fact that Indiana only had 1 class 1B clear channel (WOWO) has more to do with who was playing around with radio in the early days.
Those guys who started radio stations in their living rooms (Powell Crosley) or in their store lobby (WLS) got early footholds and preferential treatment. When serious licensing began, they were issued based on who was there first.
Those early experimental licensee's were the ones who wound up with the 1A and 1B clear channels (50KW).
The fact that Indiana only had 1 class 1B clear channel (WOWO) has more to do with who was playing around with radio in the early days.
Those guys who started radio stations in their living rooms (Powell Crosley) or in their store lobby (WLS) got early footholds and preferential treatment. When serious licensing began, they were issued based on who was there first.
Those early experimental licensee's were the ones who wound up with the 1A and 1B clear channels (50KW).
Before being downgraded, WOWO was one of the few 50 KW US stations that was
directional towards the east. It's signal was heard accross the Atlantic Ocean often.
1030 was open for a 50 KW station in 1980. It would lhave been located east of Indianapolis,
and directional to protect WCSI daytime and against WBZ nights. No one applied though
and some smaller stations came on the frequency in Ohio and Tennessee.
directional towards the east. It's signal was heard accross the Atlantic Ocean often.
1030 was open for a 50 KW station in 1980. It would lhave been located east of Indianapolis,
and directional to protect WCSI daytime and against WBZ nights. No one applied though
and some smaller stations came on the frequency in Ohio and Tennessee.
radio lover said:Was WOWO in Ft. Wayne the only full time 50kw am in Indiana before WLIB in New York made the switch a few years ago. WIBC is daytime only, so I'm curious, When I look at other states, they may have 2 or more am stations that have a full time 50kw am'er. Was Indiana over looked, or was it just a missed opertunity way back when?
Several stations never had any clear channel AM stations, like Florida. In Georgia there's only one.
Flying-Dutchman said:It's signal was heard accross the Atlantic Ocean often.
No kidding? That's pretty impressive.
A few clarifications...
Yes, WOWO was the only station in Indiana that ran 50kw full-time until its re-engineering to allow WLIB full-time status. WIBC always powered back to 10kw at night. WOWO was not a "clear channel" station in the sense that WLS, WABC, WTAM, WLW, or WJR are by virtue of the fact that it did have to go directional and protect other stations. There was no "dominant" station on 1190 and the others that ran 50kw at night all went directional to protect each other. Some other channels with this situation are 710, 1010, 1050, 1080, 1110, 1130, 1500, 1510, 1520, 1530, 1540, and 1560 to name a few.
A directional signal to the east was and is not a particular rarity. Some others in that boat include WCKY/1530 Cincinnati, WWVA/1170 Wheeling, WWKB/1520 Buffalo, WMVP/1000 Chicago, and WBT/1110 Charlotte. This phenomenon is even more common along the east coast where a station will locate their site inland and then blast their signal across their city of license and then out to sea. WRKO Boston, WAQI Miami, WTWP Washington, WBAL Baltimore, and WINS, WEPN, WBBR, and WQEQ alll New York are good examples of this. You will also find the reverse situation along the west coast with stations directional to the west.
There has never been an AM allocation table so I question the comment that 1030 was "available" in Indiana. It is possible that someone applied for it but it was never granted. Nor was there any thought to giving each state an allocation of high-power AM's. There are about a dozen states that have no AM operating with 50kw at night. The stations that got the high power at night came in three waves. The first were the ones that got on the air early in the game, which accounts for all of the non-directional Class A's (once known as 1-A's). More were dropped in in the 60's when the area of protection for a 1-A station was reduced to 750 miles. That allowed additional stations (generally directional at night) to be added. In many cases these were added in smaller towns with the idea of providing regional nighttime service. That accounts for some big signals originating out of obscure places like Kalispell MT, Casper WY, Boise ID, and Lexington NE. The third wave is happening now with signals being re-engineered, moved, and the fact that 50kw signals are now permitted on frequencies that were once limited to 5kw.
Yes, WOWO was the only station in Indiana that ran 50kw full-time until its re-engineering to allow WLIB full-time status. WIBC always powered back to 10kw at night. WOWO was not a "clear channel" station in the sense that WLS, WABC, WTAM, WLW, or WJR are by virtue of the fact that it did have to go directional and protect other stations. There was no "dominant" station on 1190 and the others that ran 50kw at night all went directional to protect each other. Some other channels with this situation are 710, 1010, 1050, 1080, 1110, 1130, 1500, 1510, 1520, 1530, 1540, and 1560 to name a few.
A directional signal to the east was and is not a particular rarity. Some others in that boat include WCKY/1530 Cincinnati, WWVA/1170 Wheeling, WWKB/1520 Buffalo, WMVP/1000 Chicago, and WBT/1110 Charlotte. This phenomenon is even more common along the east coast where a station will locate their site inland and then blast their signal across their city of license and then out to sea. WRKO Boston, WAQI Miami, WTWP Washington, WBAL Baltimore, and WINS, WEPN, WBBR, and WQEQ alll New York are good examples of this. You will also find the reverse situation along the west coast with stations directional to the west.
There has never been an AM allocation table so I question the comment that 1030 was "available" in Indiana. It is possible that someone applied for it but it was never granted. Nor was there any thought to giving each state an allocation of high-power AM's. There are about a dozen states that have no AM operating with 50kw at night. The stations that got the high power at night came in three waves. The first were the ones that got on the air early in the game, which accounts for all of the non-directional Class A's (once known as 1-A's). More were dropped in in the 60's when the area of protection for a 1-A station was reduced to 750 miles. That allowed additional stations (generally directional at night) to be added. In many cases these were added in smaller towns with the idea of providing regional nighttime service. That accounts for some big signals originating out of obscure places like Kalispell MT, Casper WY, Boise ID, and Lexington NE. The third wave is happening now with signals being re-engineered, moved, and the fact that 50kw signals are now permitted on frequencies that were once limited to 5kw.
Flying-Dutchman said:Before being downgraded, WOWO was one of the few 50 KW US stations that was
directional towards the east. It's signal was heard accross the Atlantic Ocean often.
1030 was open for a 50 KW station in 1980. It would lhave been located east of Indianapolis,
and directional to protect WCSI daytime and against WBZ nights. No one applied though
and some smaller stations came on the frequency in Ohio and Tennessee.
This is from the foggiest portion of my memory, but I seem to remember a CP being granted for 1030 at Union City on the Indiana-Ohio line in Randolph County back in the 80s. It was daytime only—and IIRC for only 1kw. I’m not sure if it ever hit the air.
1030 was lit-up in a small community in west central Tennessee about the same time. It did have nighttime service and it's country format could be heard in Indiana frequently on radios/antennas that could null out WBZ. It was later moved to Memphis to become WGSF with 50kw ND—day (10kw critical hours) and 1kw DA—nights.
Here’s a memory jogger for those familiar with Terre Haute radio... 1030 was purposed for fulltime use in Columbia, MO by WBOW/WZZQ’s Contemporary Media with a fairly impressive fulltime facility during that period. They lost out to a technically-inferior proposal intended to provide first service to Blue Springs, MO (east Kansas City ‘burb) on the merits of “a bigger population count”. KCWJ now operates with 1kw—day 500-watts—night DA2... Poor signal at night because of TWO critical limits (WBZ and WTWO Casper, WY).
I was one of those DXers and I heard WOWO all over the place including England where I was for two
years.
They were directional to protect 50 KW stations in Dallas,TX and Portland, OR.
Right, there is no table of allocations for AM. An expensive report from a consultant determined that
1030 was open. I never went for AM, I built and owned FMs.
The fact that we are talking about AM shows our age.
years.
They were directional to protect 50 KW stations in Dallas,TX and Portland, OR.
Right, there is no table of allocations for AM. An expensive report from a consultant determined that
1030 was open. I never went for AM, I built and owned FMs.
The fact that we are talking about AM shows our age.
hipporadio said:This is from the foggiest portion of my memory, but I seem to remember a CP being granted for 1030 at Union City on the Indiana-Ohio line in Randolph County back in the 80s. It was daytime only—and IIRC for only 1kw. I’m not sure if it ever hit the air.
Yes, it did. The calls were WBNN and the station aired a country format with, what seemed to be, quite a few farm reports thrown into the broadcast day.I can't remember whether WBNN was licensed to Union City, Indiana or Union City, Ohio, but the station was a daytime only operation and had nice coverage for the wattage the station was pumping out. I remember never having a problem getting it in the Richmond area while it was on the air. WBNN's parent company started another station, this time on the FM side in the mid-90s, 97.5 WTGR. The two stations coexisted for roughly a year before WBNN went silent. If I remember correctly, WBNN was shut off to accomodate another station at 1030 to upgrade.
J
jimbo700
Guest
SonoSational18:
A little clarification on your clarification:
1190 was in fact designated as a "Clear Channel" and WOWO was licensed as a "1B Clear" until deregulations in the 80's began to dismantle the AM band's systematic licensing.
1190 was (and still is) 'notified' as a US Clear Channel, with the dominant stations being WOWO in Ft. Wayne and KEX in Portland.
There are/were both 1A clear channels (700, 890, 770 and 1040) and 1B Clears (1000, 1190, 1520 and 1530).
Each of the 1B clears had to protect each other, but nobody else and no other station in American could interfere with them.
In other words, WOWO had a gentle null to the west to protect KEX in Portland, WCFL/WMVP in Chicago and a gentle null to the west to protect KOMO in Seattle ands WCKY in Cincinnati has a gentle null to the west to protect KFBK in Sacramento.
The fact that there are 2 dominant station on their frequency only makes them slightly less effective as their 1A counterparts.
Most of the 1B clears proudly proclaim they are 50,000 watts heard in 38 states at night, just like the 1A clears.
Even though WOR (710) is directional at night to protect KIRO in Seattle, it is still a fairly easy catch here in Central Indiana.
When WCKY (1530) in Cincinnati switches to their directional plant, you can barely notice it here in Indiana, both groundwave and skywave remain fairly constant after they make the switch.
Station are no longer referred to as 1A clears and 1B clears, all of the original 1A and 1B clears are now classified as Class A's.
It reverts back to their historical classification for the purpose of licensing. There are now several full-time 50,000 watt stations, but they are class B's because of who they must protect and who must protect them (they get no secondary coverage protection). A good example of this is WFLF in Pine Hills (Orlando) Florida, which is 50KW 24 hours but they are directional day and night and are only a class B.
There are lots of exceptions to the rules involving clear channels, such as Dallas's 1190 (50KW days 5 KW Nights DA2)
and even Shelbyville's WRFD on 1520 got sandwiched between a couple of 1B clears, WKBW in Buffalo and KOKC in Oklahoma City.
And these days, there are nighttime station on former 1A clears channels like 700. WLW is no longer the sole occupant of 700 KHz at night and there is now an 890 being built in Florida (in WLS former secondary coverage area).
A little clarification on your clarification:
1190 was in fact designated as a "Clear Channel" and WOWO was licensed as a "1B Clear" until deregulations in the 80's began to dismantle the AM band's systematic licensing.
1190 was (and still is) 'notified' as a US Clear Channel, with the dominant stations being WOWO in Ft. Wayne and KEX in Portland.
There are/were both 1A clear channels (700, 890, 770 and 1040) and 1B Clears (1000, 1190, 1520 and 1530).
Each of the 1B clears had to protect each other, but nobody else and no other station in American could interfere with them.
In other words, WOWO had a gentle null to the west to protect KEX in Portland, WCFL/WMVP in Chicago and a gentle null to the west to protect KOMO in Seattle ands WCKY in Cincinnati has a gentle null to the west to protect KFBK in Sacramento.
The fact that there are 2 dominant station on their frequency only makes them slightly less effective as their 1A counterparts.
Most of the 1B clears proudly proclaim they are 50,000 watts heard in 38 states at night, just like the 1A clears.
Even though WOR (710) is directional at night to protect KIRO in Seattle, it is still a fairly easy catch here in Central Indiana.
When WCKY (1530) in Cincinnati switches to their directional plant, you can barely notice it here in Indiana, both groundwave and skywave remain fairly constant after they make the switch.
Station are no longer referred to as 1A clears and 1B clears, all of the original 1A and 1B clears are now classified as Class A's.
It reverts back to their historical classification for the purpose of licensing. There are now several full-time 50,000 watt stations, but they are class B's because of who they must protect and who must protect them (they get no secondary coverage protection). A good example of this is WFLF in Pine Hills (Orlando) Florida, which is 50KW 24 hours but they are directional day and night and are only a class B.
There are lots of exceptions to the rules involving clear channels, such as Dallas's 1190 (50KW days 5 KW Nights DA2)
and even Shelbyville's WRFD on 1520 got sandwiched between a couple of 1B clears, WKBW in Buffalo and KOKC in Oklahoma City.
And these days, there are nighttime station on former 1A clears channels like 700. WLW is no longer the sole occupant of 700 KHz at night and there is now an 890 being built in Florida (in WLS former secondary coverage area).
WIBC has a wonderful signal to the east and south-esat. I have heard it in Washington, D.C.
quite well at night. WOWO still gets out like 50 KW due south of FT Wayne. 1260 and 1430
put out decent signals to the north and south.
But if you travel to the west of Indiana, you won't hear much.
We have no full time 50 KWers and the last chance to put in a new one was 25 years ago.
And with all the noise on AM today, the hobby of DXing (listening to distant stations) is
almost ruined.
quite well at night. WOWO still gets out like 50 KW due south of FT Wayne. 1260 and 1430
put out decent signals to the north and south.
But if you travel to the west of Indiana, you won't hear much.
We have no full time 50 KWers and the last chance to put in a new one was 25 years ago.
And with all the noise on AM today, the hobby of DXing (listening to distant stations) is
almost ruined.
Flying-Dutchman said:WOWO still gets out like 50 KW due south of FT Wayne. 1260 and 1430
put out decent signals to the north and south.
If you're right along I-69, WOWO sounds great...it's pattern doesn't allow for it to be too much further west of Marion at night.
WNDE's got a pretty good shot into Kokomo on some nights, though. To be honest, I don't have the best radio for AM signals.
Have you been around long enough to remember what WNDE's signal was like in 1978? I remember WNDE was the #1 station in Columbus at night in it's top 40 days, but now they are not audible there at night. I assume it's more a matter of other stations letting their directional antennas go into disrepair and causing more interference rather than anything WNDE has done. Clear Channel takes their directional antennas seriously from my experience.
WIBC's directional pattern at night looks like a finger pointed at Cincinnati. I've seen
reports of it being received at the US Navy Base in Cuba.
But, in the Indy suburb of Brownsburg, it is easy to hear CHOK 1070 from Sarnia, Ontario,
Canada
WNDE 1260 hit Springfield, Ohio like a local in the 1970s. What happened?
reports of it being received at the US Navy Base in Cuba.
But, in the Indy suburb of Brownsburg, it is easy to hear CHOK 1070 from Sarnia, Ontario,
Canada
WNDE 1260 hit Springfield, Ohio like a local in the 1970s. What happened?
jimbo700 said:SonoSational18:
A little clarification on your clarification:
1190 was in fact designated as a "Clear Channel" and WOWO was licensed as a "1B Clear" until deregulations in the 80's began to dismantle the AM band's systematic licensing.
1190 was (and still is) 'notified' as a US Clear Channel, with the dominant stations being WOWO in Ft. Wayne and KEX in Portland.
There are/were both 1A clear channels (700, 890, 770 and 1040) and 1B Clears (1000, 1190, 1520 and 1530).
Each of the 1B clears had to protect each other, but nobody else and no other station in American could interfere with them.
In other words, WOWO had a gentle null to the west to protect KEX in Portland, WCFL/WMVP in Chicago and a gentle null to the west to protect KOMO in Seattle ands WCKY in Cincinnati has a gentle null to the west to protect KFBK in Sacramento.
The fact that there are 2 dominant station on their frequency only makes them slightly less effective as their 1A counterparts.
Most of the 1B clears proudly proclaim they are 50,000 watts heard in 38 states at night, just like the 1A clears.
Even though WOR (710) is directional at night to protect KIRO in Seattle, it is still a fairly easy catch here in Central Indiana.
When WCKY (1530) in Cincinnati switches to their directional plant, you can barely notice it here in Indiana, both groundwave and skywave remain fairly constant after they make the switch.
Station are no longer referred to as 1A clears and 1B clears, all of the original 1A and 1B clears are now classified as Class A's.
It reverts back to their historical classification for the purpose of licensing. There are now several full-time 50,000 watt stations, but they are class B's because of who they must protect and who must protect them (they get no secondary coverage protection). A good example of this is WFLF in Pine Hills (Orlando) Florida, which is 50KW 24 hours but they are directional day and night and are only a class B.
There are lots of exceptions to the rules involving clear channels, such as Dallas's 1190 (50KW days 5 KW Nights DA2)
and even Shelbyville's WRFD on 1520 got sandwiched between a couple of 1B clears, WKBW in Buffalo and KOKC in Oklahoma City.
And these days, there are nighttime station on former 1A clears channels like 700. WLW is no longer the sole occupant of 700 KHz at night and there is now an 890 being built in Florida (in WLS former secondary coverage area).
WOWO used to be heard in Gary at night until WLIB had the station stripped of their Class A (1-B) status. Now the station is barely heard with 1st adjacent WRTO in Chicago running IBOC. Now that WRTO will be putting up a new tower array, their night signal will reach Gary even more than it does now, which will make it even more difficult to get WOWO at night. It also means I won't get WOAI as much in Gary either.
As for some Class B 50kw stations, WYLL Chicago managed to pull off getting their night signal running at 50kw as well. Their daytime signal still originates in Park Ridge IL on 2 towers, but in order to run at 50kw at night, while still protecting KSL Salt Lake City, they had the 6 tower array built in Lockport IL in the south suburbs, and aim most of their signal north and part of it south. They also owned the 1160 in the Cincinnati area, and downgraded that station's night signal in order to make the WYLL upgrade possible. Their night signal nearly covers the same area that the daytime signal does. I don't know how many other stations WYLL had to protect, but Salem Communications got the station upgraded, when then Infinity Broadcasting couldn't get it done when WSCR was on 1160.
Dave said:WOWO used to be heard in Gary at night until WLIB had the station stripped of their Class A (1-B) status. Now the station is barely heard with 1st adjacent WRTO in Chicago running IBOC. Now that WRTO will be putting up a new tower array, their night signal will reach Gary even more than it does now, which will make it even more difficult to get WOWO at night. It also means I won't get WOAI as much in Gary either.
As for some Class B 50kw stations, WYLL Chicago managed to pull off getting their night signal running at 50kw as well. Their daytime signal still originates in Park Ridge IL on 2 towers, but in order to run at 50kw at night, while still protecting KSL Salt Lake City, they had the 6 tower array built in Lockport IL in the south suburbs, and aim most of their signal north and part of it south. They also owned the 1160 in the Cincinnati area, and downgraded that station's night signal in order to make the WYLL upgrade possible. Their night signal nearly covers the same area that the daytime signal does. I don't know how many other stations WYLL had to protect, but Salem Communications got the station upgraded, when then Infinity Broadcasting couldn't get it done when WSCR was on 1160.
WYLL uses the Park Ridge antennas daytime, but the Lockport antennas at night?
I used to live in Hobart, and WOWO did boom in. I almost never was able to get WOAI.
What became of WLTH 1370 and WWCA 1270? in Gary?
Did they just quietly fade away?
I worked 7 years at USS in Gary.
I remember well a commentator on WLTH, Warren Frieburg, who was essentially channeling Rush Limbaugh from the future.
He went to WLNR Lansing, and I last heard him as a guest on a paranormal show on Houston radio, about 1993.
Someone mentioned AM 1030 in Chicago. Can't remember the call, but that station is in Vernon Hills, IL.
What? You don't like IBOC on AM? Greatest thing since sliced bread, according to ibiquity.
hipporadio said:1030 was lit-up in a small community in west central Tennessee about the same time. It did have nighttime service and it's country format could be heard in Indiana frequently on radios/antennas that could null out WBZ. It was later moved to Memphis to become WGSF with 50kw ND—day (10kw critical hours) and 1kw DA—nights.
There's two stations on 1030 in Tennessee.
One, in White Bluff, was WJKZ in the early 1980s. Today it's WQSE, and it's still in White Bluff. White Bluff is in Dickson Co., about 30 miles west of Nashville.
The other one, in Memphis, was WXSS in the early 1980s. It's (as you say) WGSF today, and still in Memphis.
I want to say WJKZ reduced power (presumably by dropping some towers) at one point, but can't find any record of that. The transmitter site has room for more towers, there's almost no development there.
When I travel on I-275 late at night, I can faintly pick up WOWO among all the junk. That's 275 in Tampa Bay! Not a listenable signal but it does pop in from time to time.
I remember an old engineer at WKBV in Richmond, Indiana telling me that when he was young (1930's?), there was an opportunity for 'KBV to go 50kw, if they moved to 680. (Remember, this is years ago that I had heard this so I may be off on the freq).
In any case, the owners balked at the idea because A). They didn't want to spend all that money on a huge electric bill and B). They didn't want to be confused with WLW (700). So they stayed with 1kw at 1490.
I remember an old engineer at WKBV in Richmond, Indiana telling me that when he was young (1930's?), there was an opportunity for 'KBV to go 50kw, if they moved to 680. (Remember, this is years ago that I had heard this so I may be off on the freq).
In any case, the owners balked at the idea because A). They didn't want to spend all that money on a huge electric bill and B). They didn't want to be confused with WLW (700). So they stayed with 1kw at 1490.
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