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Future of AM Radio in ATL

Man, this board's been quiet lately... ;)

What does everyone think about the future of AM radio in ATL? I'm not talking about WSB, of course, and I'm not talking about Radio Disney (which is gearing up for a signal increase). Some specific questions:

1) Do you think ATL can support two sportstalk stations, long-term? Or is the problem night signal? Or simply execution?
2) What about two news-talk stations besides WSB (specifically WGST and WGKA)?
3) What about religious formats? Salem seems to be doing well with theirs (WNIV, WLTA, and the Latino one). What about the independents?
4) What about ethnic formats? Will FM and satellite kill or at least thin out the Latino market?
5) What could crop up on AM in the event of a shakeout? Other ethnic formats (which ones)? Specialized talk? Music? Full-service (community news, HS sports, etc.)?
6) Could we see the FCC loosen up the rules on local channels to allow fewer but more powerful stations on those frequencies (maybe like the regional channels)?
 
Jabba - you ask some great questions.

For me in a market the size of Atlanta having three news talkers is not out of the realm of possibility. No one will compete with WSB and I think the people at CC and Salem realize that. They just need to be content to take their piece of the pie and be happy...and in Atlanta the #2 talker should still have a decent sized piece.
 
1) Do you think ATL can support two sportstalk stations, long-term? Or is the problem night signal? Or simply execution?

This city can barely support one sports team let alone two talkers. It would be different if they covered different things or had different opinions but there is basically no difference in the coverage except for the Stews. Love ‘em or hate ‘em, at least they offer a different perspective. Bully for them! (When did I turn into Commander McBragg?) Obviously, signal is a huge concern. Most sports happen at night and most guys can’t talk about it coz the stations are heard 15 ft from the tower after sundown. I can pick up WSCR & WMVP in Chicago easier than the two Atlanta sports stations at night.

2) What about two news-talk stations besides WSB (specifically WGST and WGKA)?

See above. I don’t think we need three conservative talk stations. One is plenty. All three just regurgitate the same hokum that comes off the RNC/White House talking points. Just so you know, I would feel the same way if we had three liberal talkers.

3) What about religious formats? Salem seems to be doing well with theirs (WNIV, WLTA, and the Latino one). What about the independents?

If I may quote Rowan Atkinson from The Devil’s Welcoming Speech, “Christians? Ah, yes, I'm sorry but I'm afraid the Jews were right.”

4) What about ethnic formats? Will FM and satellite kill or at least thin out the Latino market?
5) What could crop up on AM in the event of a shakeout? Other ethnic formats (which ones)? Specialized talk? Music? Full-service (community news, HS sports, etc.)?

With no nighttime signal nothing will crop up. WSB is the king bee and nothing will ever topple it. Just curious, has WSB been beaten by another AM station in recent years? Howa bout the last 20 years?

6) Could we see the FCC loosen up the rules on local channels to allow fewer but more powerful stations on those frequencies (maybe like the regional channels)?

Nope. I don’t see any changes for 35 years until Jabba17’s daughter is head of the FCC.

Great topic.
 
Signal_Faded said:
Jabba - you ask some great questions.

For me in a market the size of Atlanta having three news talkers is not out of the realm of possibility. No one will compete with WSB and I think the people at CC and Salem realize that. They just need to be content to take their piece of the pie and be happy...and in Atlanta the #2 talker should still have a decent sized piece.

Now, ATL wasn't able to support WSB, WGST, and WCNN (as news-talk before 680 The Fan).

Then again, in the last iteration of WCNN as news-talk WCNN was being LMAed by Ring Radio/Midwestern to Cox, who was basically using it as a flanker for WSB against WGST (and also offloading programming conflicts such as Hawks or UGA hoops games). Once Cox put WGST in its place (and WGST rehired Tom "The King" Hughes) there was no need for WCNN. It was also too valuable a signal (10kW night, albeit highly directional) to waste as the #3 news-talker vs. the #1 sports-talker. Enter the Dickeys...

Then again (again), WSB, WGST, and WCNN all co-existed through the 80s (not counting 680's short foray into nostalgia as WGTW Stardust 68)...but nobody really cared about any of these stations except when a sports contract (Tech, UGA, Braves, Falcons) came up for renewal (heck, WCNN started out simuling the audio from Headline News, hence the calls). Cox didn't seem to care about WSB--except as a vehicle for UGA and Braves games--until they saw WGST's success with Boortz, Rush, and Howard.

Then again (again), WGKA is almost nothing but syndicated programming--little local content. Cheap and easy for Salem. I guess the lesson here is that there's not room for more than two locally-programmed news-talk stations.
 
Neil Millman said:
With no nighttime signal nothing will crop up. WSB is the king bee and nothing will ever topple it. Just curious, has WSB been beaten by another AM station in recent years? Howa bout the last 20 years?
Recent years, no. Last 20--yes; WGST in the late 80s/early 90s before Boortz left. The Morning Merry Go Round had broke down and then WSB was trying to build a libtalker around Mike Malloy and it didn't work. If there wasn't a ballgame on or snow on the ground nobody listened to WSB.
 
That's true. With Boortz and Clark Howard on board, WGST was doing everything right. Not since. Will AM radio survive in Atlanta? Anywhere? I have my doubts.
Even some of the "big sticks," have jumped to FM, WIBC in Indy being an example. Demographics matter and unless I've completely misunderstood the data, kids just
aren't listening to AM. Many aren't bothering with FM but I don't think anyone is ready to nail the casket shut there.
 
Interesting questions you ask.

I have been reading some books on world politics, the effect of oil on the world economy, all those scary things that can keep you awake at night.

Every business in the world is having to find a new way of thinking. You can never run a neighborhood hardware store the same exact way your grand father did. Neighborhood restaurants as we used to know them don't exist. I could not go back and buy the 80-acre cotton and vegetable farm my father once owned and hope to make a living with it.

Why to do we dream that A.M. radio will ever do the same thing for our ears it once did? We aren't the same people our grand fathers were.

MY OBSERVATION: We often discuss radio, and A.M. radio in particular as if this medium exists in a vacuum. All are problems were brought on by (1) bad FCC policy (2) bad management (3) consolidation. Fix one of the three, or better yet, fix all three, and we will have A.M. radio back in all of it's spectacular glory. NOT GONNA HAPPEN!

We are still joined at the hip with F.M. radio. Create a real block-buster success on A.M. radio and watch some F.M. that is not at the top of that world reach over and muddy the water for the A.M. by copy-cat actions.

jabba17 said:
1) Do you think ATL can support two sportstalk stations, long-term? Or is the problem night signal? Or simply execution?
2) What about two news-talk stations besides WSB (specifically WGST and WGKA)?

Talk is too much of a guy thing. Guys are heavily involved in work that is performed in daylight hours. Talk and sports really needs to be heard at night to be a heavyweight format.

3) What about religious formats? Salem seems to be doing well with theirs (WNIV, WLTA, and the Latino one). What about the independents?

The audience age demographics makes this format tougher and tougher. People growing up in churches with praise bands, Las Vegas style productions for worship will not flock to 'teachin and preachin' formats like previous generations.

4) What about ethnic formats? Will FM and satellite kill or at least thin out the Latino market?

[/quote

In the short term, the GUY thing may work in favor of this format on A.M. This generation of Latinos does a lot of work that is compatible with radio listening. Construction. Landscaping. Warehouse. When I get out in the yard and manicure my landscape, AM is much more tolerant of being moved around as I move around.

5) What could crop up on AM in the event of a shakeout? Other ethnic formats (which ones)? Specialized talk? Music? Full-service (community news, HS sports, etc.)?
6) Could we see the FCC loosen up the rules on local channels to allow fewer but more powerful stations on those frequencies (maybe like the regional channels)?

Personal Prejudice on my part: Either create MORE local channels (on A.M.) for put the existing local channels out of business IN THE CITY so they become available for smaller markets out in the rimshot area where the towns have been abandoned by their FMs which focus on the metro, and some of their A.M.s have either moved closer to metro, or been snuffed so a metro AM could increase power.

Some of the specialized formats you mentioned could happen. Northern cities had had ethnic formats, etc for many years. The station-purchase pricing distortion brought on by the consolidation movement has made this kind of programming a bit impractical. (A non-broadcasting example: The owner of a plant in North Georgia which disposes of left over chicken parts, in response to neighbors fears that his plant might grow and grow and become more of a odor problem responded: "My plant will not be growing. People cannot continue to grow chickens on $10,000 per acre land." Here we are 10 years later and that land is now worth what....$30,000 to $50,000 per acre?)

If you have to pay 7 to 10 million to buy an A.M. frequency, you cannot cater to an ethnic neighborhood of 40,000 people. Out in rural America you can find a county neighborhood of 25 to 30,000 and survive broadcasting to them because you may be able to buy the station for $125,000 to $225,000.

If we discuss this topic six years from now, the puzzles will be similar, but the circumstances will be on the move. That tight little cluster of Koreans around Norcross may have spread seven different directions. They may have become much more integrated into what ever community they have moved to. Will Dunwoody, Sandy Springs, Milton and Johns Creek become more centered around their newly created local government? Will they respond to an LPFM in their neighborhood and abandon the A.M. their co-workers in Marietta or Decatur may be listening to?
 
Then again, in the last iteration of WCNN as news-talk WCNN was being LMAed by Ring Radio/Midwestern to Cox, who was basically using it as a flanker for WSB against WGST (and also offloading programming conflicts such as Hawks or UGA hoops games). Once Cox put WGST in its place (and WGST rehired Tom "The King" Hughes) there was no need for WCNN. It was also too valuable a signal (10kW night, albeit highly directional) to waste as the #3 news-talker vs. the #1 sports-talker. Enter the Dickeys...

Cox LMA'd WCNN from Dickey Broadcasting, not Ring Radio. Midwestern and Dickey are really the same company. Midwestern was the Dickeys' dad's company, which eventually became Dickey Broadcasting.

There was a little more involved in the deal than the WCNN LMA. One one hand, Cox leased WCNN. The other side of the coin was that Dickey Broadcasting sold the advertising for Cox's WJZF 104.1 together with its own WALR-FM, then at 104.7.

You're correct that WSB used WCNN as a flanker against WGST, which Cox felt was vulnerable. I don't know exactly why the deal ended, but I'm not sure it was because WGST had been defeated. Perhaps Cox wasn't happy with Dickey's sales performance with WJZF. Maybe Dickey didn't want to sell WJZF's advertising any more. Maybe Cox didn't feel it was getting any return on WCNN. They used it basically to give bonus spots to WSB-AM advertisers. When the WCNN LMA ended, WGST's ratings were still significantly higher than WCNN's. WCNN under Cox management never gained any traction.
 
RoddyFreeman said:
Then again, in the last iteration of WCNN as news-talk WCNN was being LMAed by Ring Radio/Midwestern to Cox, who was basically using it as a flanker for WSB against WGST (and also offloading programming conflicts such as Hawks or UGA hoops games). Once Cox put WGST in its place (and WGST rehired Tom "The King" Hughes) there was no need for WCNN. It was also too valuable a signal (10kW night, albeit highly directional) to waste as the #3 news-talker vs. the #1 sports-talker. Enter the Dickeys...

Cox LMA'd WCNN from Dickey Broadcasting, not Ring Radio. Midwestern and Dickey are really the same company. Midwestern was the Dickeys' dad's company, which eventually became Dickey Broadcasting.

There was a little more involved in the deal than the WCNN LMA. One one hand, Cox leased WCNN. The other side of the coin was that Dickey Broadcasting sold the advertising for Cox's WJZF 104.1 together with its own WALR-FM, then at 104.7.

You're correct that WSB used WCNN as a flanker against WGST, which Cox felt was vulnerable. I don't know exactly why the deal ended, but I'm not sure it was because WGST had been defeated. Perhaps Cox wasn't happy with Dickey's sales performance with WJZF. Maybe Dickey didn't want to sell WJZF's advertising any more. Maybe Cox didn't feel it was getting any return on WCNN. They used it basically to give bonus spots to WSB-AM advertisers. When the WCNN LMA ended, WGST's ratings were still significantly higher than WCNN's. WCNN under Cox management never gained any traction.

Midwestern/Dickey was still using the Ring Radio name (at least in a legal sense) as of 1999: see http://www.recnet.com/cdbs/fmq.php?facid=56390&jaws=0 and http://www.recnet.com/cdbs/fmq.php?call=wcnn&city=&state=&country=US , as well as http://web.archive.org/web/19990125090511/http://kiss1047.com/ . Obviously WRNG was long gone.

I know the whole advertising deal (also known as the Atlanta Urban Radio Alliance, or AURA) was put in place to try and give V-103 a run for its money. Obviously that didn't work. Not sure why Cox has had such a man crush on V-103, unless it's Atlanta being a prime urban market and one they should consequently dominate being the local guys. I do remember Boortz and others commenting that the spots on WCNN were basically freebies for WSB advertisers.
 
Goat Rodeo Cowboy said:
This generation of Latinos does a lot of work that is compatible with radio listening. Construction. Landscaping. Warehouse.

... or being the CEO of Coca Cola.

Most Hispanic are NOT gardeners. It's just that you see gardeners because they are outdoors. You don't see the Atlanta based Latin American audit team at one of the big name auditing firms, or center for Latin Ameican operations at Delta or any of the hundreds and thousands of places that high level white collar Hispanic work.

And, of course, Hispanics in the age range that might be gardeners don't customarily use AM at all.
 
One spot on the dial here in Atlanta that could be a major player would be 1010 AM. I realize that WGUN airs religious programming, but since that dial has a 50K signal and gets into four states during daylight hours, it would be great to see someone like CBS/Infinity buy them out and put, for example, an all-news station there, which this city needs since we have more than enough chit-chat radio here as it is. At nighttime, they could increase power but would have to go directional to protect WINS 1010 in New York City.
 
JR1967 said:
One spot on the dial here in Atlanta that could be a major player would be 1010 AM. I realize that WGUN airs religious programming, but since that dial has a 50K signal and gets into four states during daylight hours, it would be great to see someone like CBS/Infinity buy them out and put, for example, an all-news station there, which this city needs since we have more than enough chit-chat radio here as it is. At nighttime, they could increase power but would have to go directional to protect WINS 1010 in New York City.

I've wondered about that, along with WCFO 1160 (also 50k day/nil night). I think that night signal is going to be critical to anyone who wants to turn these stations into something big. If WGST has fits with their 1000W nights, and WCNN and WQXI with their icky directional night patterns, 50W (or so) night will be a nonstarter.

Having said that, I would think that if it is doable, somebody would have already done it. It would likely take a LOT of money to buy other stations just to take them dark (or lightbulb power), at least at night, even if you do go directional.

Also, unless the tower is north of town (WGUN's tower is in south DeKalb), you're going to miss the ATL population center by going directional. Check the pattern for WCNN for an example (http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=WCNN&service=AM&status=L&hours=N )--and WCNN's towers are in Peachtree Corners.

You might be able to finagle WCFO by going directional east from their Austell tower, but it will be tricky to put enough signal into NE ATL while still protecting WINS (among others).
 
DavidEduardo said:
... or being the CEO of Coca Cola.

Most Hispanic are NOT gardeners. It's just that you see gardeners because they are outdoors. You don't see the Atlanta based Latin American audit team at one of the big name auditing firms, or center for Latin Ameican operations at Delta or any of the hundreds and thousands of places that high level white collar Hispanic work.

And, of course, Hispanics in the age range that might be gardeners don't customarily use AM at all.

Please excuse me for a rather hasty and callous expression in my original post.

However, if we are going to discuss current and future Latino/Hispanic oriented radio in Atlanta, we will probably need to find language that allows us to be candid in our analysis.

I live in the fringes of metro Atlanta.... where sprawl is being built. And when houses are framed, and roofs installed and landscaping installed, if I am out in my yard doing some work, I am likely to be treated to the sound of Latino/Hispanic radio blaring away at the construction site. Up until a couple of years ago, It WASN'T F.M. because the market place for Latino/Hispanic advertising had not made it feasible to capitalize the purchase of F.M. channels. The first to make the change was the F.M. in Buford, GA. More recently was the acquisition of the F.M. licensed to Talking Rock, GA.

This is not South Texas. This is not California. The arrival of a "critical mass" of Latino/Hispanic ears for radio is a much more recent event for Georgia. You are the seasoned veteran and pro for this type of broadcasting. Are the accountants and the operations people for airline activity in the southern hemisphere of America likely to be listening to Latino/Hispanic radio, or will they be listening to the same broadcasts as the general population here? I don't know.

I'll tell you what I do know. I grew up in the cotton fields within 20 miles of the Mexican border. In the public school system as an Anglo Saxon, I was part of the minority. I know that men who swam that river to come and work on our farm as illegals made it possible for my father's farm to function. The political part of me has a chip on my shoulder about the shabby way we as a nation have dealt with the Latino/Hispanic immigrant. I have personal knowledge and experience of more than 60 years that we have continually promised these people that we are going to get our act together and make it possible, make it legal, and make it humane for them to come and participate in our economy, but we never get around to doing it.

Now, have I established that maybe I can comment on radio listening without being a bigot? ::)

I make regular stops to refill my coffee cup at the QT. (A very well run convenience store/gasoline operation with CONSISTENTLY brewed coffee!!!) Early in the morning and at the lunch hour, expect to stand in line to pay for your purchase, and expect the crowd to be 75% Latino/Hispanic. And young. And you can tell their trade by their clothing and the stains: paint, drywall, brick mason, grass clippings. Try shopping at our Walmart on Friday night, Saturday afternoon, or Sunday. Now we are running into the Tyson employees blended into the crowd.

Unfortunately I did not maintain what limited amount of Spanish language skills I once possessed, but I retain just enough of those skills to smile, assure the young man who feels some kind of requirement that he step back from the coffee urn for me, that he is to go ahead and take his rightful turn at the spigot. The look on their face tells me that they often do not get treated with courtesy.

If I were calling on ad agencies in the Class A high rises in down town Atlanta, or trying to sell hardware merchandise to the Home Depot corporate purchasing team or down at Coca Cola corporate HQ trying to get some Voice Over work I would be more focused on that other part of the Latino/Hispanic market of which you have reminded me.

I Listen from time to time to the radio stations that reach the northern Atlanta area, and I remember just enough Spanish to figure out who they are targeting with their programming. And who some of the advertisers are. And what they are trying to sell. They seem to agree with me on where the money is currently for Latino/Hispanic broadcasting in Georgia.

P.S. David: I live on a peninsula out into "the big lake". I have a neighbor down the street who has a nicer house than mine and who drives nicer cars that I do. We meet while walking. He and his wife are Hispanic. He is a crew leader for a group that does framing for condos and apartments. At the end of the peninsula we have a new 5 or 6 million dollar house owned by Pablo... the rumor on the lane is that he is the second richest man in all of Spain. I've not met Pablo, but I speak regularly to his Property Manager who is Hispanic. Maybe I should ask the two them what they listen to.
 
Goat Rodeo Cowboy said:
Please excuse me for a rather hasty and callous expression in my original post.

Thank you for such an honest response. You will probably be criticized for it... ::)

Are the accountants and the operations people for airline activity in the southern hemisphere of America likely to be listening to Latino/Hispanic radio, or will they be listening to the same broadcasts as the general population here? I don't know.

Some will be listening to general market radio, just as they listened to pop and AC and rock stations that played English music "at home" in their native country. But most will listen to Spanish if there is anything worthwhile.

Anecdotally, my daughter can't find anything she likes; she's Puerto Rican, and the two CC stations ar3e too Mexican for her taste. So she keeps asking me for promo CDs and stuff! She downloads a lot, and listens to things like KQ105 from Puerto Rico. And, yes, she is an auditor for one of the large firms. She says all her friends do the same thing... lotta' on line listening there.

I have personal knowledge and experience of more than 60 years that we have continually promised these people that we are going to get our act together and make it possible, make it legal, and make it humane for them to come and participate in our economy, but we never get around to doing it.

Since I live in two cities where the Hispanic population is over 40%, I can only add to your well reasoned commentary by saying that the economies of several states will collapse without the Hispanic contribution.

Now, have I established that maybe I can comment on radio listening without being a bigot? ::)

Yep! You get a "virtual medal" for those last comments, too.

P.S. David: I live on a peninsula out into "the big lake". I have a neighbor down the street who has a nicer house than mine and who drives nicer cars that I do. We meet while walking. He and his wife are Hispanic. He is a crew leader for a group that does framing for condos and apartments. At the end of the peninsula we have a new 5 or 6 million dollar house owned by Pablo... the rumor on the lane is that he is the second richest man in all of Spain. I've not met Pablo, but I speak regularly to his Property Manager who is Hispanic. Maybe I should ask the two them what they listen to.

Like most Hispanics who are still second or third generation and "of the culture" they are likely going to have an iPod they fill up online or "back home."

What part of South Texas are you from? I knew some folks in agriculture in Webb County years ago.
 
jabba17 said:
What does everyone think about the future of AM radio in ATL? I'm not talking about WSB, of course, and I'm not talking about Radio Disney (which is gearing up for a signal increase).

AM will continue to become increasing irrelevant. Technology moves forward and it will come to a point where satellite/digital radio or iPod/personal music device listeners in the car will out number listeners tuned to any AM, if that point has been reached already. Maybe at some point in the future (and I have some serious doubts this will happen), AM'ers will be migrated to the band below FM where analog TV channel 5 and 6 reside now, and it might regain some relevancy.

There are just some things even innovative programming can't overcome. The AM band is plagued by increasing electrical interference, very bad quality AM radios installed in cars or AM radios in general, etc.
 
Speaking of talk radio, I discovered 880 AM in Ashville the other day. Owned by CC and the format they run is "progressive talk". So obviously someone thinks there's a market for it there...but how is there a market for it there and not here? Maybe I don't know the people of Atlanta all that well...but it it seems odd that we don't have that market.
 
Andy said:
Speaking of talk radio, I discovered 880 AM in Ashville the other day. Owned by CC and the format they run is "progressive talk". So obviously someone thinks there's a market for it there...but how is there a market for it there and not here? Maybe I don't know the people of Atlanta all that well...but it it seems odd that we don't have that market.

Believe it or not, Asheville is a very liberal town. IIRC it's a haven for old hippies.

My guess is that most of the libtalk market in ATL would want an urbanish progtalk format over white-bread Air America.

Heck, if WSB couldn't make progtalk work, who in the world could?
 
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