Future of smooth jazz radio

[Sneako Sizzle]

So would like to know something. Does anyone think that all the commercial smooth jazz stations will die out? How come programmers aren't tweaking the format to make it work? Like, get rid of the BA crap and hire local DJs? Of course mostly all of them now are BA programmed, so on the bright side the ones being eliminated are the BAs which show that what they're doing really isn't working out in the long run. I would think all these stations flipping would tell 'em to change things.

 

[mfrank]

Actually the latest station they flipped (WVMV Detroit) was not a BA station. It was only BA for the afternoon drive with Dave Koz. There are very few non BA stations left now. Hopefully KIFM in San Diego will survive and not be next!

 

[AnotherCat]

They were only on SJ Network for that daypart but they were consulted by BA. There aren't many SJ stations on terresterial radio. They have mostly shifted to Smooth A/C. Here's what WLOQ Orlando plays and they are supposed to be one of the last independents. Lots of Sade, Luther, and Anita. Stevie Wonder "OverJoyed." "As" Phil Collins "Another Day In Paradise", Ace "How Long", Maxi Priest "Close To You"
Colbie Caillat "Bubbly" Santana "Smooth" Steely Dan "Do It Again" Linda Ronstadt "Ooh Baby Baby" Bonnie Raitt "I Can't Make You Love Me" Spandau Ballet "True"

See...it's a Lite A/C with some instrumentals and that is the trend nationally for stations that still claim to be in the format.

Go to the internet. That's where it's happening. Corporations that have to keep an eye on Wall Street have to be afraid of music that doesn't have a 20 year history of "familiarity"

 

[recto101]

They were only on SJ Network for that daypart but they were consulted by BA. There aren't many SJ stations on terresterial radio. They have mostly shifted to Smooth A/C. Here's what WLOQ Orlando plays and they are supposed to be one of the last independents. Lots of Sade, Luther, and Anita. Stevie Wonder "OverJoyed." "As" Phil Collins "Another Day In Paradise", Ace "How Long", Maxi Priest "Close To You"
Colbie Caillat "Bubbly" Santana "Smooth" Steely Dan "Do It Again" Linda Ronstadt "Ooh Baby Baby" Bonnie Raitt "I Can't Make You Love Me" Spandau Ballet "True"

See...it's a Lite A/C with some instrumentals and that is the trend nationally for stations that still claim to be in the format.

Go to the internet. That's where it's happening. Corporations that have to keep an eye on Wall Street have to be afraid of music that doesn't have a 20 year history of "familiarity"

I think Smooth Jazz Radio in the Future will be confined to the internet. FM and AM only makes money if Miley Cyrus, Spears , and Oakland rappers make hits. Or when Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh are in the Center of the scandal

 

[majaman78]

I think Smooth Jazz Radio in the Future will be confined to the internet.

Wrong. With the eventual proliferation of hand-held devices such as the iPhone/Blackberry/Pre and whatever else comes down the pike, music will become front and center off the internet. You will always be able to listen to your favorite station no matter where you are. The technology is still in its infancy but growing rapidly

AM/FM will be confined to news/talk/weather/traffic in their own limted markets.

FINALLY the public will get to listen to what they desire, not what nitwit radio execs think they want.

 

[davideduardo]

FINALLY the public will get to listen to what they desire, not what nitwit radio execs think they want.

Radio management does not "think" they know what listeners want... they do know. Stations spend millions every year in doing all kinds of research on both the music and perceptions of stations and that research is conducted with real listeners and pootential listeners.

 

[majaman78]

FINALLY the public will get to listen to what they desire, not what nitwit radio execs think they want.

Radio management does not "think" they know what listeners want... they do know. Stations spend millions every year in doing all kinds of research on both the music and perceptions of stations and that research is conducted with real listeners and pootential listeners.

Then you know what, David?

Just leave us alone and go visit your 25-54 year old pals at the hip-hop/rap board!

You made your point that you dislike the format over here, so why waste your time with all of us 55+ demos???

It's really too bad the radio-info board doesn't have an "ignore" feature, you'd be the first I'd use it on!

 

[davideduardo]

Then you know what, David?

Just leave us alone and go visit your 25-54 year old pals at the hip-hop/rap board!

You made your point that you dislike the format over here, so why waste your time with all of us 55+ demos???

It's really too bad the radio-info board doesn't have an "ignore" feature, you'd be the first I'd use it on!

Who said I disliked the format? Like or dislike for a format has nothing to do with the economic reality of commercial radio. There are many formats we'd love to do, but can't because there is little or no advertiser interest... which is not to say that some of those formats don't have great music or entertainment value!

Any station that depends at all on agency buys for its revenue has to focus on the ages that agency clients specify... generally all or part of 18-54. Liking or disliking a format has little to do with either the buying or selling side of radio, so the question is, simply, whether a format delivers enough listeners in the sales demos to be profitable.

A little reality might help people like you to understand that the changes in smooth jazz stations have nothing to do with "corporate suits" or a disdain for the music... just with the reality of sales. And, to try to keep the format sales-viable, BA and others have tried to adapt the sound for today's under-55 listener.

Oh, my first radio job was at an all jazz station. So I have no negative feelings for the format... and while smooth jazz is not the same as the Tjader/Coletrane/Monk/Brubeck things we played, there is a kinship between the two.

 

[Nock]

Quit feeding Eduardo. This is like leaving dog food on the back porch. Follow him around Radio Info and you will see. Unfortunately or maybe hopefully he understands he is a part of a dying industry. There will be no music on terrestrial radio and all he will have to discuss is a right wing sports station versus a left wing sports station competing with all Female talk station competing with a female programmed talk station geared towards moms. It's done, gone, finished. My recent car I purchased has a cd player, XM / Sirrius radio, and get this, and ipod connection. No need for the radio and guess what, David's up and coming audience does not need terrestrial radio either. Sure, I can hear it coming back at me that it is not happening. Guess what, 2 teenagers and myself do not need the radio anymore and my wife is asking about XM/Sirius for her car. WE are a pretty typical family.It's happening and it's happening faster then anyone still in the business wants to admit to. So David, start hanging on the talk radio board. That is where your retirement lies. Now can someone refill the bowl and move it to another board?

Nock

 

[recto101]

So would like to know something. Does anyone think that all the commercial smooth jazz stations will die out? How come programmers aren't tweaking the format to make it work? Like, get rid of the BA crap and hire local DJs? Of course mostly all of them now are BA programmed, so on the bright side the ones being eliminated are the BAs which show that what they're doing really isn't working out in the long run. I would think all these stations flipping would tell 'em to change things.

The web will save this format

 

[AC Tones]

I have to agree with Nock. It is patently evident some are so completely entrenched in their positions and beliefs that no matter how cogent others' counter-arguments may be, constructive dialogue is not possible.

Sir, I do not dispute you have decades of experience in radio, and your knowledge of the business side is vast. But I think your colleagues in the industry (to include their "million dollar" consultants) and the advertisers who pay for air time GROSSLY underestimate the knowledge of your listeners and what they REALLY want from radio. All I keep hearing is that corporate radio pays millions of dollars to so-called expert consultants to give them an accurate picture of the what the target demographic will listen to and what products/services they spend their money on. Now, I don't have the luxury of an "Ivory Tower" to see everything that is going on being the scenes with the business. For most of my life, I have been on the other side of radio. But it would seem to me that corporate radio has made and continues to make some VERY poor financial decisions, and Clear Channel's precarious financial position seems to support this.

I think educated listeners have far more credibility than industry folks give them credit for. The listening base, particularly for this "niche" genre, is sophisticated, educated, informed, and ABOVE ALL ELSE, know what they like and want. And sir, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Relatively speaking, this is a "niche" genre if you compare the two highest rated stations in a given market with a 7.9 and 7.7 share respectively to the "Smooth Jazz" station with a 1.7 share (the SP 09 numbers for the Salisbury, MD market which falls within the Top 200 largest markets you have often referred to at #143). Each station with two totally different formats has close to 5X as many listeners than BA's WQJZ. And the numbers are even more disparate in larger markets. So that tells me it is a "niche" genre, comparatively speaking, and there is nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise.

So sir, with all due respect to your decades of experience in radio, could you please tell me when corporate radio decided it made more sense to invest tons of money into seeking the opinions of high-paid consultants instead of seeking those of the artists who make the music and their patrons (their fans)? When exactly did corporate radio decide they were bigger than the poeple who made them to begin with?

Chris

 

[AC Tones]

Hard to believe this was written almost 8 years ago. I could not have said it any better myself. If you want to know how corporate radio has ruined this genre, look no further than this brief op/ed piece.

http://www.radiodiversity.com/archives/000736.shtml

 

[davideduardo]

But I think your colleagues in the industry (to include their "million dollar" consultants) and the advertisers who pay for air time GROSSLY underestimate the knowledge of your listeners and what they REALLY want from radio.

Programming consultants dont tell owners what to program; they help owners find out, via research from reliable and professional research companies, what the listeners want and assist the local staff in fulfilling those listener wants and needs.

All I keep hearing is that corporate radio pays millions of dollars to so-called expert consultants to give them an accurate picture of the what the target demographic will listen to and what products/services they spend their money on.

Actually, consultants do nothing of the sort. They assist management, based on research if the station can afford it, in implementing a programming strategy to get listeners. The consumer data on products and services comes from sources like Tapscan and Scarborough, syndicated research which defines the consumer behaviour of listeners.

Generally, the big companies don't use that many outside consultants... its the small owners who do to make sure they can compete. The larger owners have enough skilled people in-house to share across markets...

Now, I don't have the luxury of an "Ivory Tower" to see everything that is going on being the scenes with the business. For most of my life, I have been on the other side of radio. But it would seem to me that corporate radio has made and continues to make some VERY poor financial decisions, and Clear Channel's precarious financial position seems to support this.

Clear Channel's stations push off a lot of cash. The problem is that the private equitiy folks who bought them did not count on a bad economy, and they have issues with the debt payments... but the stations are fundamentally sound and making lots of money.

I think educated listeners have far more credibility than industry folks give them credit for. The listening base, particularly for this "niche" genre, is sophisticated, educated, informed, and ABOVE ALL ELSE, know what they like and want. And sir, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Relatively speaking, this is a "niche" genre if you compare the two highest rated stations in a given market with a 7.9 and 7.7 share respectively to the "Smooth Jazz" station with a 1.7 share (the SP 09 numbers for the Salisbury, MD market which falls within the Top 200 largest markets you have often referred to at #143).

WQJZ, per the most resepcted source on station, market and facilities data and appraisals, is not a "viable" facility. It does not cover the complete market area, and can not, thus, compete on a level field. WOCQ and WGMD are considered viable, as are 11 other stations (not one AM) meaning two-thirds of the market's signals are not viable.

In San Diego, the smooth jazz station is among the top stations... in 12+, it is #2 in the market (Spring 2009), and only a few tenths away from #1. That is not a niche format within the sense of all radio formats being somewhat niched. That is mainstream. In LA, KTWV is #11 out of 87 stations in the market, and is only a point and half out of #1... but the issue is the 25-54 listening.

Each station with two totally different formats has close to 5X as many listeners than BA's WQJZ. And the numbers are even more disparate in larger markets. So that tells me it is a "niche" genre, comparatively speaking, and there is nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise.

Share indicates the percentage of people listening at any given time during a time period, not the number of listeners in total. That is a different figure. And if the station in Salisbury does not adequately cover the market (the others have nearly three times the "usable" signal population coverage inside the market) it can't be compared anyway... it's not a viable full market signal.

So sir, with all due respect to your decades of experience in radio, could you please tell me when corporate radio decided it made more sense to invest tons of money into seeking the opinions of high-paid consultants instead of seeking those of the artists who make the music and their patrons (their fans)? When exactly did corporate radio decide they were bigger than the poeple who made them to begin with?

No format talks with the artists about programming. That's a sure formula for failure.

However, what you describe is not anywhere near reality. Radio stations invest in researching the listeners, finding out how they feel about staitons and how much or how little they want to hear each potentially playable song. Consultants, in some cases, only are there to help maximize the usability of the research and to help, particularly in smaller markets, sometimes less experienced staffs to compete effectively.

Chris
[/quote]

 

[davideduardo]

So David, start hanging on the talk radio board. That is where your retirement lies.

I've done talk, and done it as far back as the late 60's. More recently I have had what at times was the leading 25-54 talker in LA, and the #1 talker out of 12 of them in the Hemisphere's second largest market.

You see, you judge people by how much they like... or you assume they like... your pet format. Fine, from a listener perspective. But a broadcaster has to understand many formats and have the ability to work with many of them.

I had a person call me years ago about consulting a new FM in Karachi. I excused myself, saying I did not know the language, culture and religious issues in his market. The reply was, "We know all that. You know radio." And that is what a broadcaster is, someone who knows radio. The listners know what they want to hear, and the broadcaster consults with the listeners to get guidance.

Of course, the real issue is that the format has had demographic issues. BA, the same company that invented the format and propagated it, has tried to keep the format under-55. Yet instead of congratulating them for trying, this group throws stones because it does not understand that a 55+ format can not be sustained... at least someone, BA, and Mr. Kepler specifically, is trying to keep the format alive. Were people like you to be listened to, the format would be totally gone already.

 

[Bill Harmonic]

"Of course, the real issue is that the format has had demographic issues. BA, the same company that invented the format and propagated it, has tried to keep the format under-55. Yet instead of congratulating them for trying, this group throws stones because it does not understand that a 55+ format can not be sustained... at least someone, BA, and Mr. Kepler specifically, is trying to keep the format alive. Were people like you to be listened to, the format would be totally gone already"...David Eduardo 


You're right that the problem is a demographic issue but it's a problem that was brought on by BA and not some heroic effort on their behalf to keep the format alive. Most understand that a 55+ format cannot be sustained and that's what makes so many angry because it didn't have to be this way. BA did not invent the format. If you think the Wave in LA was the first time this had been attempted then you need to look closer at the history of the format. It had been growing for some time before Frank Cody saw the possibilities, like many of us did, to benefit from a form of music that was walking out of record store doors without getting much airplay. Mr. Cody was the first to apply this music to a large market... period. Most of us before that just ran off the passion and soul and were missing an important link in the process. He saw that research could be applied to take the format to new heights that had not been seen before but he always kept that passion and soul that got us to the dance, running through the product. When he left and the bean counters took over, the end was in sight for smooth jazz on terrestial radio. Now, I don't have a beef with anyone at BA. They are very nice people and very smart ones to boot but they just don't do anything without a research project being done first and it's not that they don't care because they do, but their world is black and white. I've worked with them on three seperate times and the mantra is "that's what we find in the research" and "that's what works in "X" market so it should also work here". BA set up a foundation to consult and then convert those who they consult into taking their research which was a license to print money. They control every aspect of the research project (except in a few major markets) so they would get the results to back up their direction and that direction led us to Smooth AC which is nothing more than today's EZ Listening stations focused at a 45+ audience with instrumental cover versions and AC oriented vocals. The passion and soul was researched out of the format. They are mainly responsible for where we are today as a format. We got rid of the passionate P1's who supported the advertisers, events and the station and put in their place P2's who loved the tempo and texture but had no vested interest in our success. Now maybe the format has reached it's shelf life on terrestial radio and that's why many who write here get so upset but I look at this differently. I believe that everything changes and everything ends and the end is not in sight. Change is constant and those who adapt to the change will come out on the other side. I don't believe this is the end of this music. It's still to viable and popular but WE have to reinvent the thought process and come up with the next direction. We have to get back to the future. The answer is in OUR hands but are you ready to take the step? I will always thank BA for everything they taught me (my own project has been guided by over 450 "one on one" interviews), even if it was the wrong way to do something but congratulations are not in order. BA has contributed a lot but they have also tried to eliminate any other thought process in their drive for format domination. Terrestial radio has bigger problems right now than whether contemporary instrumental music still gets played on a tower/transmitter operation. I'm excited for the future because I know that's it's not about just knowing radio anymore or will ever be again. It's about have the right content that creates conversation and community like it's being done on KIFM. Don't go where the path may lead, but instead make your own path and leave a trail. Take that pent up anger for BA and our own mistakes to build better product, no matter what the delivery system might be. It's really up to us!    

 

[majaman78]

at least someone, BA, and Mr. Kepler specifically, is trying to keep the format alive. Were people like you to be listened to, the format would be totally gone already.

BA and Kepler have ruined the format. The station flips prove it.

You can say what you want but you are wrong. And you can't convince me otherwise.

 

[AC Tones]

Wonderful points, Bill. Thanks so much for reminding me to stay in my lane and do what I do best. I will use your post as inspiration to refocus my passion and energy on positive change for the good of my listeners, and not lose sight of the fact that this format is as much about viability as it is CONVERSATION and COMMUNITY.

Chris

 

[Nock]

Another source of motivation. I am continually amazed at the calls I receive from young listeners questioning the music I am spinning. While maintaining the old farts. They are very hip to the tunes and amazed by the music. On a college frequency that is block programmed, I am starting a community. The tweets are pretty amazing as well. And who is tweeting? It ain't us old farts Selling music 1 song at a time on ITUNES.

Nock

 

[davideduardo]

Mr. Cody was the first to apply this music to a large market... period.

Actually, it was Owen Leach and Frank Cody. Ant there was no station prior to the Wave that had a fulltime, successful format based on what were ingredientes on KTWV. Yes, there were Quiet Storm shows, but those were severely more jazz orineted and predominantly Black in listenership. And there were the ancestors of the Wave format, but KTWV was unique in its moment.

When he left and the bean counters took over, the end was in sight for smooth jazz on terrestial radio.

Actually, Cody without Leach was not much of a force... Cody's odd and eclectic station in Santa Fe, NM, folded... lacking both sales and audience.

I will always thank BA for everything they taught me (my own project has been guided by over 450 "one on one" interviews), even if it was the wrong way to do something but congratulations are not in order.

You obviously did not learn much, as 450 one-on-one interviews is about 425 too many. Properly recruited, a 25 person one-on-one set with reach replication stage somewhere around the 15th interview, allowing focusing in the final 10 or so. If you needed 450, they were either badly recruited or badly moderated or both.

 

[Bill Harmonic]

Mr. Gleason...

With all due respect, if I had wanted your opinion on how I've use the experience I've gain with others then I would have hired you as a consultant but sorry, I have more important things to do with my money. Besides I don't think you would have the time. You've been posting on Radio-Info since 2003 and have written (as of this posting) 16702 times. That breaks out to roughly 2783 times a year and just over 7.6 times a day. The call for a specialist of your nature must be way down for you to be able to spend so much time here. Thank you for such valuable insight. When I need someone who has the experience you do in "everything", then we'll talk. Have a great day!