Give PEACE and HD a chance. That's all we are saying.

[perenoel6218]

Over the past year or so I have read so much negative criticizing of HD FM. Why are
so many on these boards constantly putting this new technology down? Maybe I am
missing something here. But, first off, instead of XM and Sirius, HD costs the listener
absolutely nothing. If one does not have an iPod or something like that, then right
away HD gives the listener more formats to choose from. iPod is NOT radio. It is
simply pre-stored music and downloads. Radio, if done right, is immediate and local.

I was in Frye's Electronics during the holidays. They now have three different HD
radios on display. One is a Sony. One is a Sangean and the other is a Radiosophy.
The price range seemed to be 99 to 199 dollars. That is not the end of the world.

What is the difference between HD being available and all of a sudden the FCC opens
up a brand new band for stations? Would those on this board who criticize HD now
find themselves doing the same to a new band? It seems to me that with a new band
a new receiver would necessitate. So why the complaints about having to buy a new
receiver just to get HD? Both examples will give listeners in communities the
possibility of adding new channels...thus new formats...and is not that what many of
us listeners desire....more choices...FREE...no subscriptions?

Let us give HD all the promotion and interest it deserves. Station owners have paid
quite a lot to get the signal out there and engineers have spent many hours configuring
their station output for this. Let us try to see the good side of HD. More formats,
cleaner sound, all FREE !!!

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Well, invoking atheist John Lennon won't win you any friends in my circles. But I agree, there is a lot of disrespect here on both sides that needs to end. We are all professionals.

The only objection most opponents have to HD is that it stomps all over adjacent frequencies on AM and FM. Period. If it wasn't for that, I doubt there would be many opponents except for the few that object to free handouts of profit to Ibiquity by the FCC.

The advantages of HD radio are only for a privileged few AM's that can afford it, and FM's that can't make up their mind what format to run - so now they run more than one. And those formats are only available to those near towers, or people who want to DX. It is a poor technical solution that is not robust. Since people have to buy new radios for HD anyway - what was needed was a new band for HD. Not trying to patch the present bands that work very well as-is, and are mature technology. The freed up channel 2 through 6 spectrum would have been ideal for HD-FM, and the under utilized longwave band would have been ideal for AM-HD. There would have been no hybrid mode problems, and reception of all digital promises to be very robust.

 

[Tom Wells]

How can we have peace when the HD AM is so antagonizing?

If the AM "solution" had not been insisted upon blindly, the FM HD would be unencumbered by the AM's atrocious bad reputation.

And yes, I'd have no problems at all with a new band or bands. I'd have no problem with buying new receivers and/or
converters. Just don't mess up our AM band any more than is already is.

I have little patience for any disrespectful noisemaker, whether an idiot in a boom car, shouting soccer players at midnight,
car alarms that no one stops, or HD sidebands that destroy formerly useful frequencies.
All of them are disrespectful and uncivilized.

 

[JohnnyElectron]

rbrucecarter5 said it very clearly what we like and dislike about HD radio technology - the destructive sidebands are the worst thing you could do the the AM band, and the FM band.

You can 'take or leave' the digital quality issues with the multicasts that reduce the audio quality of the main FM channel audio, and the twangy AM codecs, but you need to be so damn close to the tower (at least in my COL) that you don't gain any listeners by virtue of the HD signal.

My submittal to the FCC years ago was to include a mandatory 'enhanced' AM audio specification for any radio that included HD-FM - that would have been a better stop-gap measure until they gave AM a new digital-only band.

 

[scanman1]

I think peace will come when IBOC is eliminated from the AM band, since it doesn't work that well anyway, the codec has a lot of digital artifacts that cause listening fatigue Imo, and ruins the audio on the analog side (which could otherwise sound really good).

On the FM side, it works really well for me, and in my experience so for, hasn't ruined the quality of reception on any of my analog tuners. 8)

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I think peace will come when IBOC is eliminated from the AM band, since it doesn't work that well anyway, the codec has a lot of digital artifacts that cause listening fatigue Imo, and ruins the audio on the analog side (which could otherwise sound really good).

On the FM side, it works really well for me, and in my experience so for, hasn't ruined the quality of reception on any of my analog tuners. 8)

I do notice the self-jamming a bit on IBOC FM stations, compared to those that don't run HD. But on one of those pricey trendy table radios with the "great" 3 inch speakers - you'd never hear the slight elevation of hiss. Or that much improvement - if any - on the HD-1 compared to analog FM.

FM HD does jam first adjacents, thankfully I can use the front to back ratio or the side nulls of yagis to minimize the destruction. I don't see why there aren't thousands of complaints from NPR listeners in the densely packed Eastern seaboard about first adjacent jamming!

I am trying to be fair and objective - but nothing justifies interference on the level that IBOC causes on AM. Especially since the system barely works. I have no idea how Tom Ray has such good luck - I don't think even 50 kW would go over a few miles on most IBOC radios without a real deep fringe antenna - which is hard to do on a car without a whip. Maybe he has that ham antenna with bottom loaded coil or something - approximating 1/10 quarter wave length on a car antenna. That would be 10 times more efficient than the 31 inch whip that used to be standard. That is about all I can think of that would give AM IBOC a fighting chance in a car.

 

[dbdigital]

Technical considerations aside, I'm against any technology that constitutes a monopoly and is forced up us by the government. In this age of software-based radios, there is no reason why broadcasters should be chained to HD Radio as the only digital solution.

But ultimately HD Radio is a band-aid that fails to address what, I see, is a serious question, namely; what is the future of radio broadcasting in the U.S.? The FCC seems too squeamish to discuss it, hoping HD Radio will provide the answer.

In 2006 Ofcom outlined in a lengthy paper what they envision as the future for radio in Britain. They talked about taking back some the FM spectrum and giving it to other services, and allowing existing and future FM stations to broadcast a variety of content, video, information, music, etc. all digitally. No analog. For AM, Ofcom suggested keeping it as an audio-only service but only in digital. The open source, DRM, was recommended as the digital system of choice. Now if Ofcom were to set these ideas in stone with a timeline, at least, broadcasters, CE manufacturers and the public would have a clue as to where radio was heading and plan accordingly.

I feel broadcasters in the U.S. need a clear road map to the future, one that the FCC has participated in and signed off on. As it is the radio industry is just guessing and hoping that something like HD Radio will provide that map.

db

 

[4dude]

And yes, I'd have no problems at all with a new band or bands. I'd have no problem with buying new receivers and/or
converters. Just don't mess up our AM band any more than is already is.

Same here!!!!

I would be all for it if it didnt affect the existing AM/FM bands!!!!!

 

[jras20]

I would of gave HD Radio good comments if it worked the way I wanted to, I baught 2 diffrent HD Radios and both did the same. I have 2 big antennas outside 23-25 feet up, (on diffrent poles) and still had poor results. I got FM stereo a lot better and AM analog great. HD AM I could just pull in the call signs of WOAI on HD. I dont see how HD will go mainstream, I dont think analog will ever go away, if it did I guess its XM for me.

 

[Radioman100]

jras20, when you mention poor performance, it's only fair that you also mention just how far you are from the signals you're trying to receive. You're 80 miles away, correct?

I know you want more HD power, but presenting everyone with a false impression of HD performance isn't going to get it done.

I have no trouble picking up the signals you complain about when I'm in those towns, and I'm using a whip, rat tail or car radio antenna, not a 25' tower.

 

[jras20]

How far away can you pull in the HD signal from Houston? I can pull in the FM stereo fine with my analog radio, but HD it is very spotty.

 

[Radioman100]

How far away can you pull in the HD signal from Houston? I can pull in the FM stereo fine with my analog radio, but HD it is very spotty.

In my car, about 50 miles.

 

[jras20]

I guess I miss understood HD Radio, I thought if I could get a FM stereo sound then I should be able to get HD. But if it works for you then great, I guess just as long as they dont kill fm analog I'll be good.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

In my car, about 50 miles.

What station was it? I was getting more like 35 miles. Certainly NOT the 85 to 90 miles somebody was claiming in another thread!

 

[jras20]

In my car, about 50 miles.

What station was it? I was getting more like 35 miles. Certainly NOT the 85 to 90 miles somebody was claiming in another thread!

Sad part about this is my friend lived in Dallas he won a HD Radio at a party, he lives downtown, he said he put it by the window with the antenna provided, he could only get 2 or 3 hd signals, he just used it as a ipod radio. I cant even get the HD signals 30 miles away with my dipole.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Sad part about this is my friend lived in Dallas he won a HD Radio at a party, he lives downtown, he said he put it by the window with the antenna provided, he could only get 2 or 3 hd signals, he just used it as a ipod radio. I cant even get the HD signals 30 miles away with my dipole.

I would say these two examples are more typical of HD reception scenarios. I hear these lofty claims of longer distances - I was rather pleasantly surprised to get 35 miles myself. Possibly, if I were 40 or 45 miles, those signals might decode. I just happen to be 35 miles out from the majority of the towers. But the skeptic in me says "prove it". And most of the people making these lofty claims of long distance HD reception are advocates of the system. They retreat into field strength measurements to hide the milage HD travels, or they claim some magic brand of receiver that supposedly gets miraculous range. Its all the antenna. I've hooked up a deep fringe yagi to a $89 bookshelf system and netted 200 mile FM reception (non-HD) with no problem whatsover. So somebody comes along and claims 150 mile AM HD reception in a car with a 31 inch whip antenna - and I know good and well that the station, although strong, is fading at that point - I'd say "prove it" Video of them listening, showing the local town limit sign with HD lock on the radio would be just find. Now if they said they put a bottom loaded whip on the vehicle, boosting the electrical length of their antenna to about 1/10 a wavelength at AM frequencies - I know that trick can net 600 mile type reception off of AM 50 kW stations, and I'd believe 150 mile HD reception - with no noise sources.

 

[Tom Wells]

Speaking of AM car antennas, this week's rental in New Orleans, driving to Baton Rouge, is a Chrysler Sebring.
The window antenna is deaf as a post for AM and the vehicle's electrical system throws two big interference signals into the AM.
One duty-cycle pulse showing up every 100 khz or so, and an S8-9 dead carrier whistle every 100 khz or so, on different frequencies than the first offender.
Both of them are capable of intermodulating and fully ruining in-market signals, unless 50kw. Nice job, Chrysler.
The AM section in this radio is pre-broken. That's all I can call it. If any one of my radios worked like this, I would repair it, redesign it, add
some kind of outboard circuit to make it useful, or THROW IT AWAY as useless junk.
It's broken in not having a proper antenna, proper RF amp before converter, not having constant tuning, and having an
onerously narrow bandwidth for the IF and detector. This would be a nice IF filter for SSB ham or RTTY operations,
but it is NOT ACCEPTABLE for broadcast.

I am tempted to make some recordings on various ancient reproducers to show just how far back we've gone in AM.
I really do think my Atwater Kent model G horn speaker from 1927 has higher response than what I hear in this 2008 Chrysler.
I have two of the big RCA tabletop 12' cone speakers from 1928, and I'm sure they exceed modern state of the art AM capability.

Oh this car has Sirius, too. About 5 channels had some interest to me, but the data rate was sickening.
I wouldn't bother to put my part 15 on the air if I couldn't sound any better than that.
There's more swishing than a thespian convention. No offense intended to thespians, which I admit to belonging to.

Now how is AM HD gonna work in cars if the whole front end is deaf and the vehicle controls aren't properly bypassed and shielded?
Does ibiquity require mast antennas for HD AM receivers?

Has anyone citing AM reception figures tried and reported using the windshield antennas?

They'd be asking for trouble if they don't at least recommend a mast antenna for auto AM HD reception.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Has anyone citing AM reception figures tried and reported using the windshield antennas?

They'd be asking for trouble if they don't at least recommend a mast antenna for auto AM HD reception.

Also - throw hybrid vehicles into the mix - anybody done any AM listening in a Prius or other hybrid? I'd be willing to bet those big electric motors are huge RFI generators. I'd be very surprised if hybrids have any AM radio in them at all. Given the price of gas and the popularity of hybrids with huge DC motors as the power plant - where does HD AM fit into THAT picture?

 

[Len14043]

Sad part about this is my friend lived in Dallas he won a HD Radio at a party, he lives downtown, he said he put it by the window with the antenna provided, he could only get 2 or 3 hd signals, he just used it as a ipod radio. I cant even get the HD signals 30 miles away with my dipole.

I would say these two examples are more typical of HD reception scenarios. I hear these lofty claims of longer distances - I was rather pleasantly surprised to get 35 miles myself. Possibly, if I were 40 or 45 miles, those signals might decode. I just happen to be 35 miles out from the majority of the towers. But the skeptic in me says "prove it". And most of the people making these lofty claims of long distance HD reception are advocates of the system. They retreat into field strength measurements to hide the milage HD travels, or they claim some magic brand of receiver that supposedly gets miraculous range. Its all the antenna. I've hooked up a deep fringe yagi to a $89 bookshelf system and netted 200 mile FM reception (non-HD) with no problem whatsover. So somebody comes along and claims 150 mile AM HD reception in a car with a 31 inch whip antenna - and I know good and well that the station, although strong, is fading at that point - I'd say "prove it" Video of them listening, showing the local town limit sign with HD lock on the radio would be just find. Now if they said they put a bottom loaded whip on the vehicle, boosting the electrical length of their antenna to about 1/10 a wavelength at AM frequencies - I know that trick can net 600 mile type reception off of AM 50 kW stations, and I'd believe 150 mile HD reception - with no noise sources.

Bruce, as you know by reading my posts, I am not an advocate of IBOC for AM. However, I feel compelled to answer your post. HD for AM is a mixed bag and is dependent on natural and man-made noise as well as signal strenght. As I mentioned in another post, WLW and WJR have enormus digital footprints. WLW-HD was receivable in Ashland, Ohio on I-71 in areas with no powerlines or thunderstorms in the area. WJR-HD was receivable from Wilmington Ohio to Erie Pennsylvania on the same day. Again, this was under ideal conditions. WLW-HD is reliable to about 100 miles and spotty to 200 miles. I find HD to work much better on both bands in a car than in a typical house. The radio was a JVC HDR-1 with a standard whip antenna.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

anybody done any AM listening in a Prius or other hybrid? I'd be willing to bet those big electric motors are huge RFI generators. I'd be very surprised if hybrids have any AM radio in them at all.

Think again. My wife's 2005 Honda Civic Hybrid has a typical AM-FM-CD head unit, but the AM side is clean as a whistle (lousy frequency response, though, but we expected that), even when the electric motor is running.

I've listened to AM on occasion in either the Civic or my Acura TL while driving alongside other hybrids. Haven't heard any interference.

Remember that they need to suppress RFI on the electric motors just as they must do on the gas engine's ignition system, lest too much noise be introduced into the computers which run all modern cars.