GM Factory HD Radio

[700WLW]

ElCheapo said:

They don't have an established, powerful Washington lobby like ours.

Thanks for revealing who you are here representing, and your motivations and strong allegiance to the cartel. You just confirmed most of what others have been saying about HD Radio, and the cartel.
So much for your false claim of bringing an "independent voice" to this forum.
You blew your cover.
HD opponents have no lobbyists or cartel to get marching orders from, so they are the "independent voices" here, not you.

Dude, I'm just a guy who works in radio. There are no marching orders - especially related to this forum.

I honestly think the company I work for could care less what you, or 700WLW or audiophile or any of the others here have to say here.

Then, why do you keep responding to our posts ?

 

[tankedsecondchance]

All good points Chuck - and no, I don't think the RIAA is very far sighted at all - but, they have to know radio has always been their biggest ally in promoting and marketing new music.

that was true up till october 6th. when satellite radio, was granted by law, the right to broadcast music and other digital content fee free on promotional channels. which could in part be tied to the demand to carry EAS alerts

has the government mandated, via this door limited free always on satellite radio. I wonder how deep the play list can run and if they are free to include some type of limited advertisment..

They also have to know that streaming operations will be far more likely than radio to dilute their power by playing unsigned or independent artists.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

The poor anti-HD crowd realizes this is really happening and just can't deal with it.

Ha Ha - you're funny. State of denial? Listen - I've heard HD radio now. The sound quality isn't much different than analog FM, and nobody is going to hear a lower noise floor in a moving vehicle no matter how well it is insulated. Not to mention that the AM really DOES drop out and very loud power line noise abruptly comes in. The sound quality of the HD2 channels was pitiful - big suprise given the low bit rate. And - they were in MONO, not stereo.

If I were in the market for a new vehicle, I would laugh if they tried to push a factory HD radio on me. I'd tell them rip it out and put in XM or Sirius. At least THOSE services would be available out in the wilds of West Texas 150 miles from the nearest HD station, and they would be available midway between Dallas and Houston. Heck - next time I drive to California I'd get every single one of those satellite channels even in areas with virtually NO over the air AM or FM.

HD saving radio? Get real.

 

[ElCheapo]

The poor anti-HD crowd realizes this is really happening and just can't deal with it.

Ha Ha - you're funny. State of denial? Listen - I've heard HD radio now. The sound quality isn't much different than analog FM, and nobody is going to hear a lower noise floor in a moving vehicle no matter how well it is insulated. Not to mention that the AM really DOES drop out and very loud power line noise abruptly comes in. The sound quality of the HD2 channels was pitiful - big suprise given the low bit rate. And - they were in MONO, not stereo.

If I were in the market for a new vehicle, I would laugh if they tried to push a factory HD radio on me. I'd tell them rip it out and put in XM or Sirius. At least THOSE services would be available out in the wilds of West Texas 150 miles from the nearest HD station, and they would be available midway between Dallas and Houston. Heck - next time I drive to California I'd get every single one of those satellite channels even in areas with virtually NO over the air AM or FM.

HD saving radio? Get real.

I'd be really curious to know which HD stations you were listening to. All of the HD2 stations I've heard have been in STEREO and have had sound quality at least comparable to FM. Each FM HD station has 96k to play with - typically they divide it as two 48k streams.

No, HD obviously isn't a nationwide service like satellite radio. If you spend a lot of time out of town and on the road, satellite is an attractive option. I'm sure it's huge with truck drivers.

 

[700WLW]

No, HD obviously isn't a nationwide service like satellite radio. If you spend a lot of time out of town and on the road, satellite is an attractive option. I'm sure it's huge with truck drivers.

I listen to the Truckers Network WLW, and it is broadcast over channel 173 XM Satellite - WLW seems to be really pushing Satellite Radio.

 

[ElCheapo]

I listen to the Truckers Network WLW, and it is broadcast over channel 173 XM Satellite - WLW seems to be really pushing Satellite Radio.

They probably push it more on satellite than over the air. I'm sure you've noticed their legal ID on XM is different than their real TOH ID.

Ad insertion.

 

[Demodave]

I was just reading a marketing piece for the 2007 CES show. I noticed some manufacturers I hadn't seen before will be demoing HD Radio products at CES this year.

One of the manufacturers listed was Delphi... Hmmm... Could that be the same Delphi that manufactures all GM radios?

Could be!

And what have we here?

http://www.delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/audio/ans/hd/

It's just a matter of time folks! ;D

FYI...This is the third year in a row that the Delphi GM HD Radio has been shown at CES. Yes...an actual working unit. It's nothing new for this year.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I was just reading a marketing piece for the 2007 CES show. I noticed some manufacturers I hadn't seen before will be demoing HD Radio products at CES this year.

One of the manufacturers listed was Delphi... Hmmm... Could that be the same Delphi that manufactures all GM radios?

Could be!

And what have we here?

http://www.delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/audio/ans/hd/

It's just a matter of time folks! ;D

FYI...This is the third year in a row that the Delphi GM HD Radio has been shown at CES. Yes...an actual working unit. It's nothing new for this year.

But, HD radio supporters claim the HD rollout is just starting now. How could this be true?
It has already been a 3 year long flop with GM.

 

[Kelly]

I just happen to be at the CES as we type, and attended a session yesterday, (Monday), featuring the Chairman of the HD Radio Alliance, Peter Farrar, both senior guys from XM and Sirius, and Bob Stuble from Ibquity. Several questions came from the audience related to HD radio, one from me was: "The HD alliance talks frequently about their "alliances" with OEM, and regularly BMW, but what are the commitments from Visteon, (Ford), Delphi, (GM), and Chrylser, regarding making HD Radios in cars? I asked the same question three years ago at a similar session at NAB, and the response was "talks in progress", so how are talks progressing?" "Does the HD Alliance, or Ibquity have commitments from other OEM's, and if so, who are they?" Peter Farrar deferred to Bob Stuble from Ibquity. The response, (to paraphrase), is that they're still in talks with the big three, and are hopefull that with the 1,100 stations in place broadcasting HDR, that the big OEM's will see the light and want to install HDR chips in their vehicles. In other words, nothing new, and that the big three don't appear to be interested.

Another audience member, (obviously from the manufacturing side), asked the HDR panel why they thought it was a good idea to charge the manufacturers Ibquity license fees for use of the HDR chips in radios, and do they think with XM and Sirius not charging to put RX chips in the radios hurts the chances of a manufacturer adopting HDR? The answer was that Ibquity needed to recover their R&D investment some way, and that charging the stations and radio manufacturers was better and more realistic, than passing along the charges to the listener.

Another question from the audience was regarding portable HDR units since XM and Sirius were starting to sell small portable, hand-held units. Bob from Ibquity indicated that currently there were no plans to build a portable HD radio device because of excessive power consumption by the decoder chip. In fact, he said to have a portable HDR with the current chipset, one would have to "tow around a car battery to power the radio".

One thing that shocked the Hell out of me, was something that I heard when the HD Radio Alliance was formed a couple years ago, and mentioned again yesterday by Farrar. Farrar made the comment in his opening statement that ONLY members of the HD Alliance could broadcast HD2 alternate programming, (other than NPR stations), and that whatever format was used on the alternate channels, had to be approved by the HD Radio Alliance! The terms collusion, and restraint of trade, came to my mind once again. Farrar claimed that in order to make the best first impression to new listeners of HD2 channels, that they needed to control what was done on those channels.

I'm on a panel discussing "turn-off" of analog TV in 2009 this morning at CES, so I'd better get to the show. If I note any additonal news about HD/IBOC, I'll report back.

 

[buttonpuncher]

Thanks for the report Kelly. Looks like HD Radio could fail simply from the weight of the expensive, bloated bureaucracy who developed & owns it. Adding to your post, one reason they are monitoring second channel activity is they demand a cut of any income from the secondary channels, in addition to there being few listeners, this is probably one reason many stations are just playing music with no ads there.

Another issue is the taxpayer dollars going into this money-pit via the CPB & Public Radio. (Oh well, it's a drop-in-the-bucket compared to Bush's war and other military waste)

FMeXtra is looking like a better route every day (though it does nothing for AM)

 

[dbdigital]

FMeXtra is looking like a better route every day (though it does nothing for AM)

Yes, but as wonderful as FMeXtra promises to be there are still no commitments from receiver manufacturers for it. DRE has the design but no CE partners and until they do the technology is dead in the water.

db

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

I don't see the FM HD standard going away. However, I do see a real need to have DRM compatibility for AM so when the time comes for those that really want digital AM that works, they can impliment DRM, a standard that works for AM instead of IBUZ. With Ibiquity's AM standard we'd be better off for manufactures to make radios with full 15k bandwidth and just turn off the NRSC filters. The interference problems and the range of the radio stations would be about the same. It takes a nearly perfect AM signal to get HD. So why bother if you compare it against what we HAD in the 60s? How about just making AM radios that don't suck and live with the interference not running NRSC produces. What's the difference?

Since we're all dead-set on going digital, let's ask for DRM compatibility for AM. It's the best idea, really for our future as it's a technology that at some point will be actually useful and an improvement.

 

[Tom Wells]

I don't see the FM HD standard going away. However, I do see a real need to have DRM compatibility for AM so when the time comes for those that really want digital AM that works, they can impliment DRM, a standard that works for AM instead of IBUZ. With Ibiquity's AM standard we'd be better off for manufactures to make radios with full 15k bandwidth and just turn off the NRSC filters. The interference problems and the range of the radio stations would be about the same. It takes a nearly perfect AM signal to get HD. So why bother if you compare it against what we HAD in the 60s? How about just making AM radios that don't suck and live with the interference not running NRSC produces. What's the difference?

Since we're all dead-set on going digital, let's ask for DRM compatibility for AM. It's the best idea, really for our future as it's a technology that at some point will be actually useful and an improvement.

I'm still dead set against it. Digital is a delivery mode of data. Analog IS music, which I consider radio part and parcel of.
AMEN to let's just start making good AM radios again.
But I will happily partake of new offerings, all digital, in a properly defined new band and service.
My wallet is out and ready. Do you speak American? (waves dollars)

 

[Black_Shire]

I don't see the FM HD standard going away. However, I do see a real need to have DRM compatibility for AM so when the time comes for those that really want digital AM that works, they can impliment DRM, a standard that works for AM instead of IBUZ. With Ibiquity's AM standard we'd be better off for manufactures to make radios with full 15k bandwidth and just turn off the NRSC filters. The interference problems and the range of the radio stations would be about the same. It takes a nearly perfect AM signal to get HD. So why bother if you compare it against what we HAD in the 60s? How about just making AM radios that don't suck and live with the interference not running NRSC produces. What's the difference?

Since we're all dead-set on going digital, let's ask for DRM compatibility for AM. It's the best idea, really for our future as it's a technology that at some point will be actually useful and an improvement.

I'm still dead set against it. Digital is a delivery mode of data. Analog IS music, which I consider radio part and parcel of.
AMEN to let's just start making good AM radios again.
But I will happily partake of new offerings, all digital, in a properly defined new band and service.
My wallet is out and ready. Do you speak American? (waves dollars)

Agreed! Also, another thought: If the public were really salivating for digital audio, we'd be seeing land-line telephones going digital, but folks seem to be perfectly happy with 3 kHz bandwidth analog land-line telephones.


-- Black Shire

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Farrar made the comment in his opening statement that ONLY members of the HD Alliance could broadcast HD2 alternate programming, (other than NPR stations), and that whatever format was used on the alternate channels, had to be approved by the HD Radio Alliance! The terms collusion, and restraint of trade, came to my mind once again. Farrar claimed that in order to make the best first impression to new listeners of HD2 channels, that they needed to control what was done on those channels.

I'm salivating at the thought of the FCC slapping iBuckquity down hard the first time they try to squelch an HD2 channel running on a station that's not part of the HD Alliance. Apparently Farrar hasn't read the Communications Act, which states rather clearly that the licensee controls what he airs, not some outside entity, and that control cannot be delegated to other parties without violating the Act.

 

[ElCheapo]

Farrar made the comment in his opening statement that ONLY members of the HD Alliance could broadcast HD2 alternate programming, (other than NPR stations), and that whatever format was used on the alternate channels, had to be approved by the HD Radio Alliance! The terms collusion, and restraint of trade, came to my mind once again. Farrar claimed that in order to make the best first impression to new listeners of HD2 channels, that they needed to control what was done on those channels.

I'm salivating at the thought of the FCC slapping iBuckquity down hard the first time they try to squelch an HD2 channel running on a station that's not part of the HD Alliance. Apparently Farrar hasn't read the Communications Act, which states rather clearly that the licensee controls what he airs, not some outside entity, and that control cannot be delegated to other parties without violating the Act.

Can this even happen?

From what I've seen, iBiquity has rather tight controls on exporter technology. It wouldn't surprise me if stations that aren't part of the alliance can even buy an exporter capable of broadcasting HD2 at this point.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Re: GM Factory HD Radio - Delco as sensitive as a deaf ear!

Now I know where some of the impetus for HD radio in GM cars is coming from. I am in the midst of a car transition - and am driving a car with a stock Delco in it right now. And - I am reminded of just how bad Delco is and how good Pioneer supertuner 3 is! Stations that were locked in solid, with good separation on my whole drive home drop out, picket fence, etc. on a Delco. Horrific! Some parts of the drive I don't have a local station in stereo, it is in mono. I don't understand exactly why - the sensitivity seems to be there, when a dropout occurs I sometimes get a co-channel from somewhere else. The selectivity isn't too bad - but 3 filters would help as well as changing them to narrow.

What is really obvious is that HD really would help the Delco - if reception was anywhere near robust. It would sure make up for the dropouts, etc. The problem is - HD reception is NOT robust. I see post after post about how you need better antennas. The car I inherited is a '93 with a whip antenna - I feel sorry for people trying to listen on Delcos in newer cars - without an adequate whip antenna because the whip is considered ugly or uncool. The last time GM started that nonsense I had to remove a fender, chop a hole in it, and install a whip - good reception in that car for a change. That was in the _____ wires in the windshield era. Now who knows where they are hiding the antenna - but it's NOT going to be as good as a no-compromise 60 inch whip like cars had in the 60's. Put one of those on your car if you can still find one, and you will soon find it helps FM as well as AM! Maybe enough to even pull in the _____ weak HD signals on a Delco 50 to 60 miles away from the "local" towers in the suburbs.

Maybe - if Pioneer comes out with a reasonably priced HD model, I'll give it a try. With their RF expertise, maybe they can devise some way to pull it in - if you are like the 99% of us who DON'T live downtown in a major city with an HD station tower right down the street. Until then - Delco and the other car radio manufacturers BETTER get their RF act together, car manufacturers better get their antenna act together - if this HD thing is going to fly at all.

By the way, three years ago I interviewed at a car radio manufacturer. Guess what? They were muting the sensitivity of their radios to accomodate digital hash from DVD players consumers were demanding in the car. LESS sensitivity on FM, much less sensitivity on AM. NOT a good idea if you want to decode HD radio! Word to the wise - DON'T buy a factory sound system with DVD player if you expect to DX (or hear your favorite AM / FM in suburbs). And DVD factory with HD radio - NO WAY - they won't co-exist. Unless you are a couple of miles from the tower.

 

[ElCheapo]

Re: GM Factory HD Radio - Delco as sensitive as a deaf ear!

I see post after post about how you need better antennas.

I wouldn't use this forum as the IBOC bible. It's very slanted.

As for antennas, my Toyota has a stock stereo with a diversity receiver. The antennas are attached to the back glass. One is vertically polarized and the other is horizontal.

It works very, very well. AM reception is also solid. I can easily DX (gasp) a 10KW AM from 250 miles away on it - daytime.

 

[Tom Wells]

I wouldn't use this forum as the IBOC bible. It's very slanted.

As for antennas, my Toyota has a stock stereo with a diversity receiver. The antennas are attached to the back glass. One is vertically polarized and the other is horizontal.

It works very, very well. AM reception is also solid. I can easily DX (gasp) a 10KW AM from 250 miles away on it - daytime.

The diversity is only on the FM, where the wavelengths are about 1 meter.
The separation would have to be about 500 to 1000 thousand feet to be useful at 1000 Khz.

There is no substitute for a stand up antenna, especially for AM.

And the slant comes from ibiquity, who established this unlevel playing field.
I wish I could inject interference into their reality, as well as they have done into mine.
So I will do my best to debunk the technology based on sharing the engineering truth.
Sure, I may look slanted, but just look at the slope of this playing field!
Ibquity thinks they have established the slope in their favor, but have disregarded a strong prevailing wind.
This wind is the law of physics, and at least on AM, ibiquity's slop(e) is still inadequate to win.

 

[audiophile.]

Delphi is bankrupt and they probably won't survive without a GM bailout.

HD won't sell cars, so I'm not sure this press release means anything...