Go Country Makin' Changes????

[nmoore6676]

Whenever a writer applies the term “Real Country” to a group of artists, it invariably suggests that artists outside that group are not “real.” That they are somehow country impostors. I disagree.

Real Country in 2010: Lady Antebellum, Jason Aldean, Carrie Underwood, Little Big Town, Gary Allan, The Band Perry.

Country music, like all popular entertainment, has been continuously evolving for decades. Top artists at any given moment will often bear little resemblance of style to a top artist 10 or 20 years earlier. Real Country 2010: Taylor Swift. Real Country 1990: The Judds. Real Country 1980: Barbara Mandrell. Widely divergent styles, yet all are giants.

Ray Price’s smash hits of the early 70’s, “For The Good Times” and “You’re the Best Thing That Ever Happened To Me” featured Ray backed by lush orchestra strings. Very different from Hank Snow’s “I’ve Been Everywhere” a decade earlier. Both are enormous “Real Country” stars of their times.

Kenny Chesney shares little musically with Buck Owens. Is he less “real country?”

The argument about “Real Country” vs “Pop Masquerading As Country” has been going on for years. It was going on when I worked country radio in the 70’s.

Rock has certainly evolved. R & B has evolved. Blues has evolved. If country didn’t evolve, we’d still be listening to Roy Acuff clones.

Thank goodness country music is such a wonderfully big tent. In 2010, Sugarland and Bomshel have their “sound” as do the neo-traditionalists like Josh Turner and Chris Young. It’s all part of an exciting, fun musical genre and it’s all “Real Country.”

Nick Summers

You have made the argument that I always make to people who don't like new country. If you listen to early Ray Price and Eddy Arnold there is a very distinct difference in the sound. Patsy Cline never was Kitty Wells, in fact she did not have too much respect for her. But her sound definitely was moving to what was called pop at the time. Willie Nelson has recorded a lot of pop and rock songs.

I do think that there is a lot of pushing of artists like Taylor Swift and although I thought Kanye West was out of line in his method of delivering his protest of Taylor at the 2009 MTV Video awards I did agree with his position about Swift not deserving that award over Beyonce. I don't think country fans felt the same about Patsy or The Judds and Barbara Mandrell all of whom are played on my favorite Classic Country station but I won't live long enough to see Taylor Swift on their playlist.

A lot of the dilution of country, if you will, was done by a couple of beloved musician / producers in Nashville, Owen Bradley and Chet Atkins. Those two orchestrated, literally, the Nashville Sound.
Yet they were both musicians who played on a lot of the more traditional recordings of people like Ernest Tubb and Faron Young.

One of my favorite traditional country DJs is also a respected steel player and I boil most of his objections down to the fact that a lot of the new country does not feature steel guitar. Yet on his show he happily plays recordings by Patsy Cline with all of the lush instrumentation and the Judds and other 80s hit makers. As for myself I listen to it all but I buy only what pleases me most and that can be anything from Wynn Stewart and Donny Young (aka Johnny Paycheck) to Jaron and The Long Road to Love. Old time writers like Bill Anderson are still cranking them out for the new guys.

So wouldn't a careful selection of older artists still be accepted by the new generation of listeners? I'm not saying Roy Acuff or Kitty Wells, probably not Hank Snow and Ernest Tubb but certainly a little Cash, Paycheck, Jennings, Owens and Lynn shouldn't make them push the button. George Jones should still fly as well as Marty Robbins.

 

[surfdude]

Some great posts on here.

The Country station in my market is VERY successful. They are "live" 24 hours a day, they relate to the Country lifestyle
while still being mass appeal. And, most importantly, they ask their listeners which songs they like using auditorium music testing, weekly callout, and online testing. They KNOW which songs the Country listener in our market likes the most, and they play them often.

Is KKGO doing any of those things? If not, they should. It's the only way to be successful in any format.

 

[emailfailed]

Something interesting that Saul and company should consider, plenty of the Sliver Lake/Los Feliz hipsters, maybe because it's "ironic," really like a lot of classic country music. In fact at some "hip" joint on Vermont I was dragged to not too long ago classic country was blaring out of the speaker, and there also playing was what I will describe as neo-classic country.

Perhaps Mr. Levine could program a country station that is designed for the "hip" L.A. audience.

Well, even if some program and music director designed a very L.A.-centric country station the country format in general in L.A. presents some challenges.

I am not sure the modern country format that is quite successful in many places nationwide can really work in L.A. anymore. Why? Well, the same reason active rock will never work in L.A. anymore.

Both aim for the same audience demographics and much of that demographic went away when the aerospace industry here closed up in the early 1990s combined with "white flight" that was prevalent at the time.

It was no surprise throughout the 1990s KZLA always seem to have trouble getting a hold of and retaining a decent audience. Throughout the 90s KZLA experimented with different variations of the format (maybe that was the problem?) that included adding AC titles and even a few modern rock titles; I do clearly recall hearing Sublime's "What I Got" and No Doubt's "Don't Speak" on KZLA.

As I noted earlier in the thread KFRG used to be a POWERHOUSE in the Inland Empire, and I think they took advantage of KZLA's schizo programming when in the mid-90s they attempted to sell themselves as a Southern California station. If you have looked at the ratings today KFRG has fallen by the wayside.

So I am not too sure if country, at least in this moment in time, will be a viable format for L.A.

L.A. isn't the only place where country has had problems; New York and San Francisco have been on and off with country formats.

Aside from some of the major sunbelt cities, fact of the matter is country has never really been an overly successful format in major markets. Country stations that were in such major markets always "held their own" through the years, but were never a major presence nor threat in their market.

So basically what I am getting at is country is a tough format for this market and quite frankly at some point I expect Mr. Levine to spin the format wheel soon.

 

[briancraig]

I would strongly disagree that country is not an overly successful format in major markets outside of the sunbelt.

Country is usually in the top 3, if not #1 in Minneapolis, Denver, Seattle, Portland, Indianapolis, Baltimore, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Milwaukee etc.

I think the problem with country in L.A. is that the demographics are just very unfriendly toward the format. There aren't enough Silver Lake/Los Feliz "hipsters" to make programming to that group worthwhile.

Unfortunately, much of the ethnic audience of L.A. just has no interest in country but I do believe there is still enough of a country audience in the area for KKGO to have decent ratings if it was better programmed.

 

[TheBigA]

So wouldn't a careful selection of older artists still be accepted by the new generation of listeners?

Would you play Frank Sinatra on a CHR or pop station now? Think of it that way. Even The Beatles don't get played on a currents-based station. That's what country is now. Mostly currents and recent gold. It's that way because it appeals to the most active and passionate listeners. And those who'd like to hear more classic country won't sit through the current stuff.

As you know, KZLA did a classic country show Sunday nights, hosted by Mac Davis. They also experimented with mixing in oldies, and even mioxing in California country rock. The reality is that country is a 2 share format in LA.

 

[TheBigA]

Perhaps Mr. Levine could program a country station that is designed for the "hip" L.A. audience.

You mean like "City-billy?"

 

[ChannelFlipper]

The reality is that country is a 2 share format in LA.

Stop the calls, We have a winner.

Very insightful posts on this thread though.

 

[nmoore6676]

So wouldn't a careful selection of older artists still be accepted by the new generation of listeners?

Would you play Frank Sinatra on a CHR or pop station now? Think of it that way. Even The Beatles don't get played on a currents-based station. That's what country is now. Mostly currents and recent gold. It's that way because it appeals to the most active and passionate listeners. And those who'd like to hear more classic country won't sit through the current stuff.

As you know, KZLA did a classic country show Sunday nights, hosted by Mac Davis. They also experimented with mixing in oldies, and even mioxing in California country rock. The reality is that country is a 2 share format in LA.

I would play Sinatra and The Beatles if it were my station and if I were so blessed I would not even subscribe to a ratings service. But that is not realistic for the major stations especially those owned by big business broadcasters.

As for a 2 share format, nobody in LA gets BIG numbers and there have to be some 2 shares or turn off the transmitters and turn in the license. In smaller markets with fewer signals double digit shares happen so maybe turn off all the ones for sure.

KKGO likely will get bigger numbers than KMZT as classical did.

As for sitting through current stuff I do every day because I listen to classic country on line but local current stations when I am out an about. Of course here in S.E. Iowa I have many choices to tune to if one is playing something I absolutely hate, read Taylor Swift or The Dixie Chicks.

I also sit through the farm reports but draw the line at the funeral announcements. :

 

[K6JHU]

"KKGO likely will get bigger numbers than KMZT as classical did. "

Look at KUSC's numbers now that they have the market to themsleves (I won't count KKGO-HD2 alhtough I like it).

BTW, I am in ABQ and they have one thing that LA doesn't - a commercial classical music station (qbout number 15 in the market).

 

[Nick Gerard]

Something interesting that Saul and company should consider, plenty of the Sliver Lake/Los Feliz hipsters, maybe because it's "ironic," really like a lot of classic country music.

I have a hunch this crowd may be statistically invisible. Not a likely target for one of the market's big FM signals. Maybe one of the hipsters could start a Los Feliz LPFM

Nick Summers

 

[nmoore6676]

Something interesting that Saul and company should consider, plenty of the Sliver Lake/Los Feliz hipsters, maybe because it's "ironic," really like a lot of classic country music.

I have a hunch this crowd may be statistically invisible. Not a likely target for one of the market's big FM signals. Maybe one of the hipsters could start a Los Feliz LPFM

Nick Summers

I think that at one time the Tijuana-540AM signal did have classic country but only a short time. I don't know if Saul still has that signal anymore. Perhaps AM-1260 but it doesn't get into Los Feliz all that well as I recall. But you are correct classic country will never fly on a full market FM signal in Southern California.

Anyway any hipsters in Silver Lake and Los Feliz can get all the classic country they want at
myclassiccountry.com and on Sunday nights they have Newgrass Nights for the more modernly inclined aficionados of Acoustic Music. They make it because they are in Oho and have a store that sells the recordings they play as well as promoting concerts with bluegrass and classic country acts along with music themed travel and cruise bookings.

 

[musicfan101]

Try classic country on the 103.1's? It's almost been two years since they last flipped, it's due for a format flip.

 

[musicman3355]

I have to disagree with the posts saying "country is not a viable format in LA". KKGO would do a lot better if they did their homework and does a country station the right way. After all, didn't KZLA did well until it died in '06?

I also think it has nothing to do with demographics. Here's another city with huge diversity - Chicago. WUSN is doing well, and if KKGO sounded more like them, they can probably make it.

 

[TheBigA]

Here's another city with huge diversity - Chicago.

Chicago: 17% Hispanic

LA: 40% Hispanic.

I'd compare LA and Miami.

 

[musicman3355]

Chicago: 17% Hispanic

LA: 40% Hispanic.

I'd compare LA and Miami.

Sure, maybe not the same demographics, but MIA's WKIS does seem to do fairly well, in fact much better than KKGO.
Three more metro areas with large Hispanic population: Fresno, the IE and Bakersfield. Their country stations do very well in ratings.

 

[emailfailed]

Some thoughts...

"KKGO likely will get bigger numbers than KMZT as classical did."

Perhaps it's an anomaly but according to the August 2010 ratings: KUSC 1.8 and KKGO 1.5.

Since June KKGO has been sliding.

KKGO should heed the lessons learned at KZLA; it seemed at 93.9 when ratings slide a bit for management/programming that means an immediate call to action in tinkering with the format.

I think Mr. Levine should look east and heed the lessons learned in the enormous success of KFRG. For over 20 years in that station's life the format, imagining, presentation, music and strong presence in the community has pretty much been the same. Even as ratings have slid and demographics change in the Inland Empire the station is still keeping to its image with no tinkering or altering the format, and that is why I believe KFRG still, though no longer number one, remains very high in the ratings.

What is interesting about "The Frog" is when it debuted there were at least five, maybe six, country stations in the IE, along with KZLA and KLAC, and they made themselves standout and now they're the only FM country station in the IE and, again, doing quite well.

So Mr. Levine should look at the rise of KFRG and attempt to implement such concepts on KKGO. Also, Mr. Levine has to let the station nurture and not let a bad "book" be the cause of a sudden alteration of the format.

A lot of people who like country music were turned off to KZLA as when they have expectations of the format it's a shock and even disappointing when the "country station" suddenly throws on some modern rock songs.

 

[Marv-L.A.]

Another tidibit from a recent report in Lon Helton's Country Aircheck was the fact that KKGO's cume dipped below 1,000,000 for the first time in nine or ten months or thereabouts, and it ranks third in cume right now behind WUSN/Chicago & KPLX/Dallas.

David Eduardo's remark that many stations in LA have seen their cume explode in light of the advent of PPM has certainly been the case at KKGO.

Country has always done very well in many of the nation's top 25 markets, and had been the most-listened to format in the nation since 1992 until it was overtaken by News/Talk in the spring of 2008.

The format is #1 in Tucson, and has perenially been a top-five staple (and has been #1 in markets such as Seattle & Sacramento), as well as numerous areas here in the West.

Both KKGO & KFRG have seen their ratings erode over the past several years due to the changes of the ethnic mixes in both markets, and especially KFRG, which routinely scored 8.0 or higher shares until seven or eight years ago, and upgraded their signal into Orange County a few years ago.

 

[Pronkie]

Both KKGO & KFRG have seen their ratings erode over the past several years due to the changes of the ethnic mixes in both markets, and especially KFRG, which routinely scored 8.0 or higher shares until seven or eight years ago, and upgraded their signal into Orange County a few years ago.

KFRG started to slip in the beginning of 2008 when they got rid of several top management......CBS decided to slim down the ranks and got rid of the station manager and other key managers......Replacing them on a revolving basis with people who are clueless hasn't helped them either...

 

[FocusGroup]

Go Country has a huge playlist and plays far too many unfamiliar songs. Imaging is also too CHR sounding with nothing country about it. LA has a limited Country audience due to the fast changing ethnic makeup of the market and the station has to be right on target musically, as well as with the presentation, country content and personalities!

For Country Radio to work in LA/Orange County as it has in the past, at KIK FM and KZLA, you must have a tight, focused playlist. Be very current but don't ignore the classics that are part of the Country music heritage. Have great live, local air personalities that relate to the Country community. Nobody does this better than Shawn Parr. He is everywhere, everyday and gets right down in it with the listeners, every single day. Shawns voice is on all the Major award shows and is familiar from his years of experience in LA. Pulling Shawn off Mornings is a huge mistake. Focusing the music is what the station needs to do, as well as re-imaging and giving it a Country sound. People listen to Country radio because they LOVE Country music, Country DJ's, the Country lifestyle and sound. So many LA Country stations have tried to sound too slick, trying to pull in the non-country partisans. That's great but the music does that by itself. Taylor, Carrie, Rascal Flatts and others bring non-country listeners to the party. But too much of a CHR presentation blows off the Country core. It makes them feel disrespected.

Radio is simple....

Play the hits, live local personalities, fun contests with great prizes! = Big Ratings!

 

[davideduardo]

Both KKGO & KFRG have seen their ratings erode over the past several years due to the changes of the ethnic mixes in both markets, and especially KFRG, which routinely scored 8.0 or higher shares until seven or eight years ago, and upgraded their signal into Orange County a few years ago.

The biggest reason both stations are down is the change from the dairy to the PPM.

Similarly, data posted on the Nashville board shows no country station even in the top 5 25-54 there. In general, lower cume higher TSL stations in the diary did not do as well in PPM.