Good Bye to Cincinnati Progressive Talk

[FightingIrish]

It hasn't been announced that libtalk will move to 1360. If it does, the church programs won't go along.

It has been announced in several media outlets that the two stations are swapping formats, meaning that progressive talk will move to 1360. Religious programming will likely remain on 1530 (though not sure if that means they'll still sign on early on Sunday nights during football season - bad move for a sports station). Promos currently on 1530 advertise the new "1360 WSAI", which means that the call letters will remain the same.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

It has been announced, both on the air and in the Post over the weekend:

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060701/LIFE/607010322/1005

 

[fred flintstone]

Old Akronite: Now the Clear Channel has confirmed progressive talk will remain in Cincinnati after Sports moves to 1520 - and now that Clear Channel Miami has dropped Jerry and gone local-live in AM drive (dumping Reilly/Maddow) - what are the chances Cincinnati will do the same and get rid of Jerry and do a local show in the mornings?

That seems to be the way to get OK numbers for progressive talk - maybe the only way. Is Clear Channel's local management at all serious about the progressive talk format in Cincinnati and looking to make it work - or do they intend to bail out at the first opportunity (like maybe when Jerry's current contract expires)?

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

That seems to be the way to get OK numbers for progressive talk - maybe the only way. Is Clear Channel's local management at all serious about the progressive talk format in Cincinnati and looking to make it work - or do they intend to bail out at the first opportunity (like maybe when Jerry's current contract expires)?

I've written about this at length on the blog, but I'll distill it here - I don't see much appetite for them to keep the libtalk format. It may have only been saved by Jerry's contract. That's just a gut feeling on my part, though.

The question that's getting in the way in my mind, though...if they dropped liberal talk on 1360, what would they program?

There's really nothing left, with their existing AMs taking all the usual successful AM formats. Maybe they'll keep the format and run it cheaply? Who knows. 1530's format predecessor, oldies, is now being heard on a competitor...WDJO/1160. Just about every other music format that usually ends up on AM skews even older than that. Business talk?!?! I'm at a loss for a guess at this point.

It's just that Mr. Parks seemed to be dropping a boatload of hints in that early June article in the Enquirer...that the progressive talk format's days would seem to be numbered. Maybe the demotion to 1360 basically amounts to what he was talking about...but the station has gotten rather anemic numbers, and 12-plus is even beaten by that oldies station that runs pretty much the same format 1530 ran before starting liberal talk.

And this is all entirely speculation on my part. I'm not hearing anything about this out of Cincinnati, which is out of OMW's usual coverage area...

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

And as FightingIrish noted, it looks like the calls won't swap, and the liberal talker on 1360 will become "1360WSAI".

There's also some question when they'll make the switch. The sports format website says "listen Friday", and the libtalker website says "listen Saturday"...

http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com/2006/07/cincinnati-swap-friday-or-saturday.html

 

[gr8oldies]

Maybe espanol on 1360 at some point? Seems like about the only option....except brokered.

 

[fred flintstone]

I've written about this at length on the blog, but I'll distill it here - I don't see much appetite for them to keep the libtalk format. It may have only been saved by Jerry's contract. That's just a gut feeling on my part, though.

The question that's getting in the way in my mind, though...if they dropped liberal talk on 1360, what would they program?

There's really nothing left, with their existing AMs taking all the usual successful AM formats. Maybe they'll keep the format and run it cheaply? Who knows. 1530's format predecessor, oldies, is now being heard on a competitor...WDJO/1160. Just about every other music format that usually ends up on AM skews even older than that. Business talk?!?! I'm at a loss for a guess at this point.

It's just that Mr. Parks seemed to be dropping a boatload of hints in that early June article in the Enquirer...that the progressive talk format's days would seem to be numbered. Maybe the demotion to 1360 basically amounts to what he was talking about...but the station has gotten rather anemic numbers, and 12-plus is even beaten by that oldies station that runs pretty much the same format 1530 ran before starting liberal talk.

And this is all entirely speculation on my part. I'm not hearing anything about this out of Cincinnati, which is out of OMW's usual coverage area...

I guess this all demonstrates Clear Channel is not the monolith some presume. Local managements seem to have a good deal of discretion. Clear Channel suits nurture progressive talk in some markets and stifle it in others.

Parks sounds like a typically arrogant SOB, the kind of PD from hell most radio people have run into. Convinced progressive talk can't work, so he takes actions which guarantee it won't work (and will then say "I told you so"). Has he promoted progressive talk? Where is his morning show? Why is the weakest link (Jerry) kept on the air? Jerry may have a contract with Clear Channel but is WCKY/WSAI locked in? After all, Big Ed's "flagship" in Fargo (where he did a local show before - and for a time after - going national) stopped carrying his show locally. Unless Parks made a particularly dump deal with Jerry, they should be able to unload his show (or move it to overnights - or something) - like Cleveland, Miami, et al.

Cincinnati is a good market for talk radio and progressive talk should work there. 1360's primary coverage area is only slightly smaller than 1530s. The improved signal in the periphery might matter more for sports talk than for progressive talk (whose listeners are less likely to live in the sticks).

Business, brokered, foreign language or religion are about the same as doing dark for practical purposes. I hope it doesn't come to this but Advice/Lifestyle talk might work. It skews old but it can make money.

 

[Jeff_Davis]

Fred...I don't know if you're in Cincinnati or where you are, but WCKY got tons of press and there were billboards and bus cards everywhere. Springer was the talk of the town for quite some time, so there was absolutely a buzz about AA. Front-page news and lots of TV coverage as well. They did a "Battle of the Talk Show Hosts" event that pitted Springer against Sean Hannity and had a huge crowd. I don't know what else they could have done. It was a monster signal with tons of promotion and buzz.

As for foreign language, Cincinnati will have a new full-time Spanish station on-air within two weeks. There's a lot of money to be made, so I don't know how you can say it's not practical.

 

[fred flintstone]

Jeff: I'm not so sure Barnum was right about all publicity being good (as long as they spell your name right). It sounds like, from your description, that CC promoted Springer. AAR, of course, created buzz for itself (especially in the begining) through its various miscues. While it may be understandable to think that as a hometown boy Jerry would be an asset, it turns out that by putting their emphasis on Springer, CC's local management was backing the wrong horse: His show is not that good and he has too much baggage from his trash TV show. At the very least, CC should have made him drop the TV gig before signing him. The only reason he got national distribution at all was because Unfiltered was so bad. If Springer had not gotten into bed with AAR, most progressive talk stations would now carry Stephanie Miller and the format would have much better track record.

Are you the same Jeff Davis who is PD of the "arts" station in Atlanta, and did replace turn-key AAR with financial advice? If so, I can see how you would sympathize with a PD in Cincinnati who appears (by his statements and actions) to be skeptical about progressive talk and to be backing away from the format. IMHO if you are going to take only one progressive talk program and stick it in the middle of an ecclectic music format, Franken is not the best one to take. Of course, putting progressive talk in an "arts" format does not make sense in the first place. It will make the arts audience unhappy and not satisfy the progressive talk audience (but like most political compromises, this one is designed to keep everyone equally unhappy - nobody wins, so nobody loses either). If you are the same Jeff, apparently you did not have much confidence in progressive talk either. The format was never given a chance in Atlanta (under the previous station owner) with an automated station doing nothing but taking the AAR feed including Jerry and a pathetic show in morning drive (which can't make up its mind whether it's a syndicated show or a New York show). Like Miami (and other markets), you could have added a local show, picked up Stephanie Miller and Ed Schultz, and maybe done OK with progressive talk - instead of bottom feeder financial advice. But I can also see how a person in the South with the same name as the president of the Confederate States of America would not favor progressive talk radio.

I didn't say foreign language radio wasn't practical, financially. I consider foreign language broadcasting abhorant and it should be illegal. Foreign language radio is an enabler - a crutch - training wheels. It makes it easy and comfortable for immigrants to remain outside the economic and social mainstream (sometimes for generations); always to be resigned to being unskilled labor.

The majesty and grandeur of the English language, it's the greatest possession we have. The noblest thoughts that ever flowed through the hearts of men are contained in its extraordinary, imaginative, and musical mixtures of sounds. - George Bernard Shaw

 

[Jeff_Davis]

I'm NOT that Jeff Davis.  I live and work in Cincinnati.  I do sympathize, however, with Darryl Parks and his placement of Homer on 1530.  The sports format has more potential than AA in Cincinnati.  If this were Portland or Seattle, I'd feel otherwise.  I think AA deserves a home here, and I was glad that they gave it the monster 50kw signal.  But, it's not getting more than a 1.0 share. Homer was in the mid 2.0s during the last Bengals season.  I will be happy to hear someone saying "1360 WSAI" again, just as I was happy to hear them say "1530 WCKY." 

Truth is, WSAI will still reach the AA audience.  The daytime signals really aren't much different, except downtown and in some parts of northern Kentucky.  The nighttime signal on 1360 is not comparable at all, but I think they'll still reach the core of their audience in the city.

By the way, WCKY as AA cumed less than 39,000 with a 4-book average of just over 40,000 in the Winter Book. WSAI as Homer cumed just under 80,000 with an 81,000 4-book average. They cumed as high as 110,000 in the Fall book during the Bengals season. WSAI's TSL is also higher. Without putting politics into it, which do you think is a better use for a 50kw signal?

 

[fred flintstone]

I'm NOT that Jeff Davis. I live and work in Cincinnati. I do sympathize, however, with Darryl Parks and his placement of Homer on 1530. The sports format has more potential than AA in Cincinnati. If this were Portland or Seattle, I'd feel otherwise. I think AA deserves a home here, and I was glad that they gave it the monster 50kw signal. But, it's not getting more than a 1.0 share. Homer was in the mid 2.0s during the last Bengals season. I will be happy to hear someone saying "1360 WSAI" again, just as I was happy to hear them say "1530 WCKY."

Kerry got 47% of the vote in Hamilton County last time around. Bush got 42% of the vote in Allegheny County (Pittsburgh). Bush got 24% of the vote in Multnomah County (Portland). By the prevailing Red-Blue logic, Rush and conservative talk should not do well in Pittsburgh or Portland - and progressive talk couldn't do well in Cincinatti. Yet the station which carries Rush in Portland (KEX) is number two overall and the number one AM, beating progressive talk in that format's best market. In Pittsbugh, KDKA replaced Rush with O'Reilly and otherwise runs a slate of local conservative talkers; they are a very strong number two in the market and number one AM. Rush's current station (along with Beck and Hannity), WPGB-FM, is currently a respectable number six. Pittsburgh does not have a full time progressive talk station, but WPTT does carry Thom Hartmann, Alan Colmes and two local progressive hosts (plus other non-PT programming) but it receives only an 11 per cent share of the talk radio audience. It does not seem election results are a good predictor of talk radio success. Conservative talk radio does well in "Blue" markets, but there seems to be a presumption that progressive talk radio can not possibly do well in "Red" markets - only in the bluest of the blue markets.

Truth is, WSAI will still reach the AA audience. The daytime signals really aren't much different, except downtown and in some parts of northern Kentucky. The nighttime signal on 1360 is not comparable at all, but I think they'll still reach the core of their audience in the city.

Agreed. As I posted earlier, the signal patterns of the two stations are not that different, and most of AAR's core audience is likely closer to town. My concern is more Darryl Parks publicly expressing such a skeptical view of the future of the progressive talk format. Absent any local programming and continuing a weaker show when a stronger performer is available, he has not done all he can to make the format work.

By the way, WCKY as AA cumed less than 39,000 with a 4-book average of just over 40,000 in the Winter Book. WSAI as Homer cumed just under 80,000 with an 81,000 4-book average. They cumed as high as 110,000 in the Fall book during the Bengals season. WSAI's TSL is also higher. Without putting politics into it, which do you think is a better use for a 50kw signal?

Again, I don't dispute the flip. One might ask why they didn't move sports to 1530 (instead of just moving the call letters to 1360) when they dropped Oldies; that would have been a logical move then, as well. What is perhaps more significant, "The Homer" does a good deal of local programming (plus Premiere's Jim Rome and Fox Sports overnights). I suspect that had Parks just taken the Fox Sports Radio feed (plus Rome) - as he takes the AAR feed (plus Schultz) - he'd also have fractional numbers for "The Homer" (and might be voicing pessimism about the future of sports talk, too).

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

You know what, Fred? I think Mr. Parks is right about a lot of what he says in this situation, and I'll tell you why.

First of all, as Jeff Davis pointed out, WCKY wasn't exactly a stealth launch. It was, quite literally, the talk of the town. Of course, as you point out, much of that surrounded Springer - but let's be frank about this. Clear Channel is not going to blow out the doors in promotion of any AM signal that is not WLW. Nor, frankly, should they.

They did a lot. The billboards are easy, since CC owns a truckload of 'em, and Springer got them untold amounts of free TV and newspaper promotion. If that man scratches his nose in Cincinnati, he gets ink and TV time.

He's a flawed host, and as it turns out, his show isn't all that interesting (IMHO). But I really can't fault Mr. Parks or CC Cincy for riding that horse in Cincinnati, and as I said in the blog, Springer's presence and availability there may have driven the entire decision to even start a libtalker there.

(Upon more thought about it, I think they may have eventually tried it without him, but they'd probably have moved Homer to 1530 back then, and put an all-syndicated 1360 up as a libtalker.)

Which brings us to your other contention - that "Homer" would be in the same boat as the libtalker if they'd just thrown on Fox Sports Radio. I'd agree, of course. But...liberal talk is a new format, and sports is not. Stations are finding some success with local shows in libtalk, but it is not a given.

I don't know the Cincinnati market to know if WCKY could have mounted a decent local liberal talk show or two (aside from Springer) and I don't believe it'd be as automatic as you seem to think it is. For one, much of the interest in sports formats is drawn by interest in sports, and Cincinnati is a pretty rabid sports market. Take a look at those numbers 1360 got when the Bengals were on. The only comparative factor on the libtalk side is a hotly contested national election, which is not really even guaranteed to happen once every four years.

As far as Mr. Springer's difficulty, another problem he has is right in the building - Mike McConnell. WLW is a unique and diverse station, and McConnell...while certainly no liberal...is no garden variety "right wing" talk show host, either. He spent countless hours and days on his show excoriating the right for its participation in the Terri Schiavo mess, and that's far from the first time he's done something like that.

As such, his audience is probably somewhat broader than most "conservative" hosts, and he's a very formidable obstacle for any "liberal" host to take any piece out of....

Whew. This got long, eh?



It would seem to me from the remarks Mr. Parks made in the Post that he may well agree with you and I about the nature of some of the current liberal talk programming. And though you would suggest replacing a Springer with Stephanie Miller, that just isn't happening in Cincinnati as long as Springer's in that time slot. If he's gone, and the station survives that, who knows...maybe they'll do it on 1360. But I don't give much chance for the liberal talk format to survive when Springer's contract is up...

-OA/OMW

 

[Jeff_Davis]

Fred, I was basing my "Portland and Seattle" comments on KPOJ's and KPTK's ratings, not the political temperament of the cities.

I also forgot to include WDBZ as a factor. It's a tiny 1000 watt AM station that serves the African-American community. The hosts mostly lean left and they're LIVE and LOCAL from 10am to 7pm every weekeday. They cume a little less than WCKY, but TSL is double.

 

[MightyFrenchman]

That seems to be the way to get OK numbers for progressive talk - maybe the only way. Is Clear Channel's local management at all serious about the progressive talk format in Cincinnati and looking to make it work - or do they intend to bail out at the first opportunity (like maybe when Jerry's current contract expires)?

Progressive and liberal is a contradiction in terms. An oxyMORON.

 

[fred flintstone]

OA: I can understand why Mr. Parks put his chips on Jerry. What I don't understand why he continues to put his chips on Jerry. If there are contractual issues, then I don't understand why he made such a dumb deal. If WFGO can drop Ed, why can't WSAI drop Jerry?

No, success for a local-live show is not a given. Nothing in radio is. But it would be hard for them to do worse than Reilly/Maddow. One arrangement might be for Jerry to do what Thom Hartmann does from Portland. But he seems unwilling to give up the trash TV gig (yet he also seems to want to rehabilitate his image).

Jeff: I understand your comments about other markets was not just about politics. Still, there seems to be an assumption floating around that progressive talk can only work in very liberal markets. Cincinnati is a good talk radio market and it is not purely a conservative town. In addition to local-live WLW, in which programs appear driven more by personality than ideology, WVXU does OK with a news and information format (Winter cume 108,900; TSL 6.5). Commercial progressive talk tends to do well in markets where talk in general does well and where public radio news-talk does well.

Many people in radio have believed liberal talk radio can not work. And the lack of success of the format often is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Jerry Springer IS (perceived as) progressive talk radio in Cincinnati, the format was crippled out of the starting gate (even with a good signal).

 

[kaufcom]

This is much ado about nothing.

Fred says...

Is Clear Channel's local management at all serious about the progressive talk format in Cincinnati and looking to make it work - or do they intend to bail out at the first opportunity (like maybe when Jerry's current contract expires)?

Old Akronite says

I've written about this at length on the blog, but I'll distill it here - I don't see much appetite for them to keep the libtalk format. It may have only been saved by Jerry's contract. That's just a gut feeling on my part, though.

Clear Channel is carrying lib-talk on 27 stations reaching a potential audience of over 50 million listeners. While they haven't added libtalk to any of their markets in recent months, they haven't dropped the format anywhere (don't talk about WHJJ in Providence because the surviving local talkers are mostly liberal). Whether it's a contractural issue or more likely inertia, it doesn't appear that CC will be making any changes for some time. The real question should be, why isn't CC picking up libtalk in any other markets?

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

Clear Channel is carrying lib-talk on 27 stations reaching a potential audience of over 50 million listeners. While they haven't added libtalk to any of their markets in recent months, they haven't dropped the format anywhere (don't talk about WHJJ in Providence because the surviving local talkers are mostly liberal). Whether it's a contractural issue or more likely inertia, it doesn't appear that CC will be making any changes for some time. The real question should be, why isn't CC picking up libtalk in any other markets?

The real question is - what does a company do with its underperforming second (or third) AM stations?

Not just Clear Channel.

Here in my hometown (cue the song), CC's second AM actually went from a 24/7 FSR feed to liberal talk, now with a local midday host. They aren't exactly "tearing up" the 12-plus ratings, but the addition of that local name host has certainly made the station a better performer. They have sponsors attached to him, and many events with him involving those sponsors.

One would expect, though, that the expectations were MUCH higher for Springer in Cincinnati. And unlike our local host here, Springer is not a true local show for WCKY-turned-WSAI, due to the syndication. And he only does his show there two out of five days a week, due to his TV commitments in Chicago.

Anyway, we're back to my original question. If it is (as Fred and I suspect) only Springer's deluxe contract keeping his show on the air and keeping WCKY-turned-WSAI in the format, and they get out of it...what ELSE would Clear Channel run on 1360?

Sports is out, of course, unless they turned in into an all-FSR lineup/sports overflow sister to 1530, running off the bird and running events that got bumped from 1530 and even 700.

CC has done that in two other markets I know of - Washington DC and Minneapolis. The DC overflow - weak-signal WWRC/1260 - is now the liberal talker there. The Twin Cities station is daytimer KFXN/690 "The Score", and it is still up, running a combination of FSR and ESPN programming (Dan Patrick) along with Premiere's Jim Rome.

http://www.thescore690.com/pages/schedule.html

The question - would CC risk doing that in the wake of moving the sports to 1530, and creating essentially not only an in-house competitor to it, but also to WLW in some respects? I don't know. Mr. Parks doesn't seem worried that 1530's 50,000 watt sports format will cannibalize WLW's sports presence...and he's never been concerned that 550 and (now-)1360 would do so on the talk side, either.

Else, as we talked about exhaustively up there, there aren't many other viable format choices for what is basically the fourth AM in the Cincy CC cluster.

-OA