Good debate offered on Christian music

[collegeDJ86]

ChristianityToday.com in the past couple weeks has offered two strong essays debating certain issues in Christian music.

The first article is here.

Then, a response was written here.

I think this debate is crucial as we look at the role Christian music has in reaching out to the secular realm without compromising the message. Feel free to discuss this, but please read the articles before commenting.

 

[rbrucecarter]

OK, so what is the solution? to go back to music of a more conservative STYLE so we make sure it is worshipful enough? That doesn't make any sense. Style and message are independent.

My solution was to look at the messenger as well as the message. Without being a spiritual fruit nit-picker, does the artist's overall lifestyle line up with the Word? Do they make time for quiet time? Is church attendance / fellowship / ministry a priority in their life when not on tour? Can they name a pastor / church whose authority they are under?

I now attend a much better church than I used to. The worship music is loud, contemporary, and high quality. The church is filled with teens, 20's and 30's - as well as a few old timers like me. 18,000 members. The messages are uncompromisingly fundamental / scriptural. The topics are timely and contemporary and relevant.

If you go back to the good old days of a preacher in a suit behind a pulpit, choir in robes, organ playing hymns, you might as well shutter the church in ten to twenty years because the target audience has moved on past that approach decades ago. Change - but not compromise - or die. Your choice --- people reached for Christ in a way YOU don't personally like, or almost nobody reached at all.

 

[gr8oldies]

Don't suppose there could be room for both approaches (music for the subculture only and music for more general audiences?). Or like my impression of most of the vangelical/fundamentalis forms of Christianity, "I'm right and you're going to hell").<P ID="signature">______________
Soon to set the world record for recieving Nigerian scam and phising e-mails!</P>

 

[rbrucecarter]

> Don't suppose there could be room for both approaches (music
> for the subculture only and music for more general
> audiences?).

Since there will never be a shortage of traditional churches available, the question is moot. It will take a long time to get rid of the choir in robes, I wouldn't worry! I think the mass appeal, though, requires a newer approach. Provided the gospel isn't compromised, it assures the continuation of the faith for the foreseeable future.

Those uncomfortable with newer, more exciting forms of worship MAY have a problem a few decades from now. If I am still around, I will be the first one to say there should be a few traditional churches around for them. But I will be an 80 year old hip-hopper for Christ right along with the kids today who will be married with families by then. And we will rock the world for Christ.

 

[MikeBratton]

Excellent articles, by the way. And interesting responses so far, although this last one seems to deal more with church services than with broadcast music...

> > Don't suppose there could be room for both approaches
> (music
> > for the subculture only and music for more general
> > audiences?).
>
> Since there will never be a shortage of traditional churches
> available, the question is moot.

Actually, it's far from "moot." Is the tent so small that only one type of music can exist beneath it? And if so, wouldn't that be awfully sad?

> It will take a long time
> to get rid of the choir in robes, I wouldn't worry!

Choirs have been around since Old Testament times, and from what the Bible tells us, there will be much choral activity in Heaven. Perhaps getting rid of the choir in church isn't the best idea, since there's more than a bit of precedent for it?

> I think
> the mass appeal, though, requires a newer approach.
> Provided the gospel isn't compromised, it assures the
> continuation of the faith for the foreseeable future.

Interesting term, "mass appeal." It's almost an instinct, isn't it, to think that all we have to do is appeal to the masses and they'll all come stampeding to Christ?

And if I may be so bold, the "continuation of the faith" has far more to do with the movement of God the Holy Spirit in the lives of human beings than with a marketing strategy, wouldn't everyone agree?

> Those uncomfortable with newer, more exciting forms of
> worship MAY have a problem a few decades from now.

Now there's the rub.

"Newer, more exciting forms of worship" for whom, exactly?

If worship is laterally-oriented--that is, concerned more with the people doing the worshiping than with God Himself--then keeping the people excited is of paramount importance.

But if worship is vertically-oriented--designed for people to, indeed, worship God--entertainment value is bumped from the top of the list of priorities.

> If I am
> still around, I will be the first one to say there should be
> a few traditional churches around for them. But I will be
> an 80 year old hip-hopper for Christ right along with the
> kids today who will be married with families by then. And
> we will rock the world for Christ.

Did the folks who are 80 today think, way back when, that the Lindy Hop or the Charleston would still be what all the "hepcats" were "digging" today?

If they did, they were obviously mistaken.

--Mike

 

[rbrucecarter]

> Excellent articles, by the way. And interesting responses
> so far, although this last one seems to deal more with
> church services than with broadcast music...

Good point. You program what you want, I will program what I want. Hopefully both of us are guided by the Holy Spirit. But if we don't appeal to listeners, neither of us will be on the air for long. That is the sad irony of Christian radio. It is a ministry, but also has to be a business.

> Actually, it's far from "moot." Is the tent so small that
> only one type of music can exist beneath it? And if so,
> wouldn't that be awfully sad?

No - you go to your tent, I'll go to mine. Let's both take steps to ensure that both tents stay open.

> Choirs have been around since Old Testament times, and from
> what the Bible tells us, there will be much choral activity
> in Heaven.

Study temple instruments - you will find that Hebrew temple music has more in common with a rock group than a church choir.

> Interesting term, "mass appeal." It's almost an instinct,
> isn't it, to think that all we have to do is appeal to the
> masses and they'll all come stampeding to Christ?

Looking at this from a marketing perspective. We have the best product in the world. External salvation and grace from Jesus Christ. The majority of churches haven't got a clue how to market that product. Lets put teenagers into a traditional church looking at the talking head for an hour. What does that remind them of? SCHOOL!!! An ananthma to most of them. Lets put teenagers that listen to hip hop and rock the whole week into a hymn environment and expect them to like it? Get real. Lets put teenagers in boys only and girls only classes when the rest of the week they are together - and expect them to like it?

> And if I may be so bold, the "continuation of the faith" has
> far more to do with the movement of God the Holy Spirit in
> the lives of human beings than with a marketing strategy,
> wouldn't everyone agree?

Sure does. Maybe the Holy Spirit is talking to me about more effective methods of ministry. Maybe I am called to that. Maybe you are called by the same spirit to traditionalism to reach that crowd. It doesn't make my calling invalid any more than my calling makes yours invalid. Don't try to put God in your little traditional sized box. He has a habit of breaking out of our mold. I am glad you are there to reach traditionalists - that's obviously your calling and you should follow it. Just don't presume to question somebody else's calling that is different from yours. That is not your right or responsibility. You think I'm off track - take it up in your prayer closet not here.

> "Newer, more exciting forms of worship" for whom, exactly?

Me and those like me. Not you.

> But if worship is vertically-oriented--designed for people
> to, indeed, worship God--entertainment value is bumped from
> the top of the list of priorities.

Change with the culture - but not compromise - or die. That is the dilemma that has always faced churches throughout the centuries. Its not about me or you, it is about a changing world where old techniques no longer work. What church today uses techniques that were around in the year 800? They wouldn't be open - nobody could understand the language, the music, or like the facilities. There is a wierd denomination here in Dallas (well - they just left the Christian faith but that is another matter) - they are so legalistic they don't have education wings physically part of the church building, and don't dare use musical instruments. I was glad they were there for their members, but their doctrine was off the wall. Now - they clearly are not Christians.

> Did the folks who are 80 today think, way back when, that
> the Lindy Hop or the Charleston would still be what all the
> "hepcats" were "digging" today?

No doubt, my interest in rock and hip-hop will be looked upon by young people as hopelessly outmoded and old fashioned as those things you mentioned are today.

Whatever trends in music and entertainment exist then, I hope forward looking men of faith grab onto the aspects that do not compromise faith, and incorporate them into worship and music.

 

[toddohio]

> Looking at this from a marketing perspective. We have the
> best product in the world. External salvation and grace
> from Jesus Christ. The majority of churches haven't got a
> clue how to market that product. Lets put teenagers into a
> traditional church looking at the talking head for an hour.
> What does that remind them of? SCHOOL!!! An ananthma to
> most of them. Lets put teenagers that listen to hip hop and
> rock the whole week into a hymn environment and expect them
> to like it? Get real. Lets put teenagers in boys only and
> girls only classes when the rest of the week they are
> together - and expect them to like it?>

My wife and I just had a long conversation about this last week.

We both grew up in very legalistic, traditional churches. As adults, we still battle the stuff that was drilled into our heads. Today, we attend a contemporary-but still traditional church setting. Well...we're in the process of switching to a progressive church (a casual-dress and coffee type).

I want my 7 year old and 3 year old to be able to look forward to going to church - somewhere they can learn about the Bible in a creative atmosphere - wear shorts, play video games-something that really looks and feels like our home. I want that place to be consistent with our lifestyle, values, and beliefs. I want it to be an extension of our home - I want it to be REAL.

Some may agree...you may disagree with my philosophy. And those same thoughts and opinions are also translated to CHRISTIAN radio. Some like music. Some like teaching. Others like a mixture of both. It's all wanted.

BUT personally....I wish more churches and Christian radio stations could become a reflection and be an extension to what's going on at home - rather than being this "formal" institution.<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by toddohio on 07/20/05 04:21 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[gr8oldies]

The retention rate of kids in youth groups is very small..those who still have an interest in church after age 18. They sometinmes come back when their first child is born. I tend to shy away from anything that gets close to fundamentalism, either in person or on the radio (we have three stations, all 50kW, that pretty much run all the same teaching and preaching programs.

Bruce mentioned same-sex Sunday school classes. A certain local mega-church is trying to do that with adult singles. They once had 700 people at a singles dance, but now are trying to do same-sex groups, which means I guess singles have to meet the opposite sex at bars again.<P ID="signature">______________
Soon to set the world record for recieving Nigerian scam and phising e-mails!</P>

 

[radioelizabeth]

WHAT?!

gr8oldies wrote:
"A certain local mega-church...once had 700 people at a singles dance, but now are trying to do same-sex groups, which means I guess singles have to meet the opposite sex at bars again."


Ok... NOTHING to do with Radio... BUT...

C'mon. What is so great about a church exploiting the ONE and potentially ONLY thing 700 people might have in common? Why not just a church dance that includes EVERYONE? That would be a great night of fellowship.

"same-sex" or "non co-ed" groups are an amazing opportunity to foster REAL RELATIONSHIPS with others that have absolutely NOTHING to do with romantic expectations or misguided motives. Marriages would be better off if men and women had more friendships with those of the same sex prior to "I Do" and after.

I'm all about meeting PEOPLE in church, at events, and even sometimes in these "life-style/common" groups, along with COUNTLESS other places people bump into people everyday. But if your intentions and underlining goal is just to "hook up" (whether for a night or life) then a church dance is no better than the local tavern.

If a man is called to seek a wife, I'm sure he'll find a way to get that done. And if he is a Christian, I doubt he's banking on the bars to find one.

No way I can tie this into radio...without a super stretch that would make no sense... but I just had to get that off my chest. (sorry Matt)

Thanks.

e

I Corinthians 7






<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>

 

[MikefromDelaware]

Music used to worship

Speaking about the musical instruments from Biblical times, here is how Psalm 150 describes praise.

Psalm 150 (NIV)
1 Praise the LORD. [a]
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.

2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.

3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,

4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,

5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD.
Praise the LORD.

The Hebrew music could be very lively as noted by the instruments used. This does seem to fit the praise and worship musical format better than the hymn/organ/choir style. However, I don't believe that the Lord made us all vanilla, so if you can be lifted into the heights of worship with Jesus by singing praise and worship music then that's what you ought to do. If you are lifted to the heights of worship by singing hymns then that's what you ought to be doing. Both forms of music honor Our Lord. I prefer Praise and Worship, but I understand how others would rather choose a different musical style in which to offer their worship to the Lord with. The fastest growing churches in America are using praise and worship style music as this will generally touch the spirits of the younger people. Obviously this can also be applied to Christian radio. There are all sorts of Christian radio stations available, the traditional hymn type and the CCM type. Not to mention Urban Gospel, Country Gospel, and even Praise and Worship type of stations. Each type of music brings some part of the body of Christ to the heights of worship. As long as the music glorifies Our Lord and brings people to him then I believe it is of God. Bottom line is we are to worship Our Lord. We all are unique individuals as Our Creator and Lord made us to be. So it isn't surprising that we'd find more than one style of Godly music in which to worship him with.

 

[rbrucecarter]

Re: WHAT?!

> "same-sex" or "non co-ed" groups are an amazing opportunity
> to foster REAL RELATIONSHIPS with others that have
> absolutely NOTHING to do with romantic expectations or
> misguided motives.

Except that the last time I attended such a group, it was filled with homosexuals and there was plenty of "romantic" expectation. And this was in one of the most fundamental churches in the country.

> Marriages would be better off if men and
> women had more friendships with those of the same sex prior
> to "I Do" and after.

Wrong. Marriages are better off if men and women first know how to relate to each other as friends and equals without romantic expectations. That also would greatly help the work place. Relationships will happen - and the church better be equipping singles to deal with the temptations they cause, rather than dodging the issue with same sex discriminatory classes and pretending relationships won't happen in more "spiritually equipped" classes and people.

As for friendships - I prefer women. They don't generally try to compete with me. I also loathe sports, camping, hunting, and most other things the guys talk about. No, I am not homosexual. I just have more in common with women, interest wise.

> But
> if your intentions and underlining goal is just to "hook up"
> (whether for a night or life) then a church dance is no
> better than the local tavern.

A tavern is where you meet to find sex. A church singles group is where you go to (1) get closer to Jesus, but (2) find a Godly relationship leading to marriage. Both are honorable.

> If a man is called to seek a wife, I'm sure he'll find a way
> to get that done. And if he is a Christian, I doubt he's
> banking on the bars to find one.

Funny how some of the popular Christian guys use that as a weapon to convince less popular / muscular guys that they are "called" to singleness. When in reality the motive is to keep them from asking out girls so they can have their pick.

> No way I can tie this into radio...without a super stretch
> that would make no sense... but I just had to get that off
> my chest. (sorry Matt)

Well I can tie it in. If the local oldies station can run a date line - why not the local Christian station as well?

 

[smashedcd]

Bruce mentioned same-sex Sunday school classes. A certain local mega-church is trying to do that with adult singles. They once had 700 people at a singles dance, but now are trying to do same-sex groups, which means I guess singles have to meet the opposite sex at bars again.

i am not sure if you are talking about a gay group or what. if you are:
romans 1:27...

if not..why would you go somewhere to meet a bunch of dudes?? if you are single you need the opposite sex. if you can meet a woman at church than whats the point of having all these groups at church? i know the local mega here now doesnt let men and women into the same cell groups. but thats just one of many things i disagree with there.
if you are in radio i suppose you could meet someone there. i did ..i broke rule #1. never ever under any circumstance date a caller...i did and i married her..<P ID="signature">______________
note to tvland...bring back wkrp!!!</P>

 

[rbrucecarter]

I seem to remember some of this garbage came from Bill Gothard seminars 25 years ago. Normal people I knew in church went to those seminars and came back judgemental dogmatic JERKS. Holier than thou CCM haters, dating haters, etc. I would avoid those people like the plague. Same as Shaklee people - GET AWAY!!!! POISON CHURCH! Give me normal people, who day by day face and overcome temptation with the power of the Holy Spirit within them. NOT a 10 pound King James bible to hit you over the head with.

 

[radioelizabeth]

Re: WHAT?!/ Date Line on Christian Radio

radioelizabeth wrote:
"Marriages would be better off if men and women had more friendships with those of the same sex prior to "I Do" and after."


Bruce Carter wrote:
"Wrong. Marriages are better off if men and women first know how to relate to each other as friends and equals without romantic expectations."


Wrong? Your point does not counter mine at all.


"Relationships will happen"

Relationships are ALWAYS a choice. We aren't a bunch of wild animals without control of our environments, decisions, attitudes and behavior.


"and the church better be equipping singles to deal with the temptations they cause"

And we disagree on how the church can deal with it. I hardly see fostering and encouraging an atmosphere where people are expected to feel romantic and encouraged to try to mate a way of dealing with temptation?


"As for friendships - I prefer women. They don't generally try to compete with me."

Exactly.


"If the local oldies station can run a date line - why not the local Christian station as well?"


Plenty of reasons. The goal isn't to be married. It's to be Holy. With or without a mate. Energy and expense invested in a "date line" by a local Christian station has one thousand other better uses.

I'm not knocking marriage...or a man seeking out a wife...but when Christian radio starts to broaden their reach to become a dating service, I'd say some focus has seriously been blurred.

Christian radio has enough hurdles it's got to overcome to open that can of worms as well...

e


<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>

 

[gr8oldies]

Re: WHAT?!/ Date Line on Christian Radio

What I don't buy into is this thought I hear that goes something like "If God intends you to be married, he will deliver your spouse in a UPS package at your front door with no effort on your part whatsoever". Sorry, call me a sinner, but I don't buy it. If someone made that comment about looking for employemnt, he or she would be instructed to get off their lazy derriere and do something about it!

And I do enjoy the company of both sexes..doesn't mean I want to date all the women in the church. And yes, i know about the "no sex without a license" rule whcih apparently is the only one that matters.<P ID="signature">______________
Soon to set the world record for recieving Nigerian scam and phising e-mails!</P>

 

[radioelizabeth]

Re: WHAT?!/ Date Line on Christian Radio

I don't think anyone is suggestioning God will drop off a bride on the front porch (although He could)

Men are called to make an effort. But there are also some pretty well defined ways to do that...and they aren't that difficult to determine if a man is truly seeking God's will. Men are much more valiant and determined than we in the church often give them credit for. They will "get off their derriere" so to speak when there is something they truly want.

Now... to RADIO...(thanks Bruce for finding a way to tie it in) ?

A Christian date line on Christian radio doesn't seem to fit into good stewardship and focused programming. It's offered in the mainstream for a variety of reasons, but I doubt they translate to this format. (example, many times it is to generate revenue through sponsorships and such)

-and actually "no sex without a license" is NOT the only rule that matters.

e <P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>

 

[xmusicmatt]

Re: WHAT?!/ Date Line on Christian Radio

> A Christian date line on Christian radio doesn't seem to fit
> into good stewardship and focused programming. It's offered
> in the mainstream for a variety of reasons, but I doubt they
> translate to this format. (example, many times it is to
> generate revenue through sponsorships and such)


Tell that to the fine folks at Salem who have run those annonying "e harmony.com" ads durning CCM Mag and on their 24/7 Music Feeds.

<P ID="signature">______________
Lenks
Program Director/Music Director
X Music Online
The X
Today's Best Music
http://www.xmusiconline.com/</P>

 

[smashedcd]

x music online...

> > A Christian date line on Christian radio doesn't seem to
> fit
> > into good stewardship and focused programming. It's
> offered
> > in the mainstream for a variety of reasons, but I doubt
> they
> > translate to this format. (example, many times it is to
> > generate revenue through sponsorships and such)
>
>
> Tell that to the fine folks at Salem who have run those
> annonying "e harmony.com" ads durning CCM Mag and on their
> 24/7 Music Feeds.
>
i see switch on the x playlist. you do know what that song is about ..dont you..<P ID="signature">______________
note to tvland...bring back wkrp!!!</P>

 

[radioelizabeth]

Date Line on Christian Radio

radioelizabeth wrote:
"A Christian date line on Christian radio doesn't seem to fit into good stewardship and focused programming. It's offered in the mainstream for a variety of reasons, but I doubt they translate to this format. (example, many times it is to generate revenue through sponsorships and such)"

Lenks wrote:
"Tell that to the fine folks at Salem who have run those annonying "e harmony.com" ads durning CCM Mag and on their 24/7 Music Feeds."


An ad for an online dating service is not the same as radio station setting up the previously suggested date line.


<P ID="signature">______________
RADIOELIZABETH
Pleasant, Passionate, Persuasive
www.radioelizabeth.com</P>

 

[xmusicmatt]

Re: x music online...

> i see switch on the x playlist. you do know what that song
> is about ..dont you..
>

Yeah and my Web Station is NOT Christian ... It's Mainstream CHR (with some Christian Content) and to tell you the truth, I hate a lot of what I program, but I got a target audience and I must deal with it.


<P ID="signature">______________
Lenks
Program Director/Music Director
X Music Online
The X
Today's Best Music
http://www.xmusiconline.com/</P>