Got a car HD Radio

[jras20]

Well I got me a car HD Radio now, it sounds great! I havnt had a chance to travel around with it much yet, but drove it around the Austin area, its great to have new channels. I have 3 HD Radios now. Like them all.

 

[KB1OKL]

Well I got me a car HD Radio now, it sounds great! I havnt had a chance to travel around with it much yet, but drove it around the Austin area, its great to have new channels. I have 3 HD Radios now. Like them all.

Do you have to avoid many bridges? ;D

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Well I got me a car HD Radio now, it sounds great! I havnt had a chance to travel around with it much yet, but drove it around the Austin area, its great to have new channels. I have 3 HD Radios now. Like them all.

Do you have to avoid many bridges? ;D

I mention this about the much touted satellite radio. ALL bridges black out the signals as you go under because they block the signal from the satellites. Not too bad if you whiz along at 70, but if you are in stop and go traffic, it is annoying.

 

[pocket-radio]

On HD2 you'll get drop outs. HD won't have the same signal strength either.. so you'll lose the signal outside of city grade... city grade will be much smaller too.

 

[R.F. Burns]

On HD2 you'll get drop outs. HD won't have the same signal strength either.. so you'll lose the signal outside of city grade... city grade will be much smaller too.

That isn't due to the technology as much as the amount of radiated RF allowed. They'll just have to make power adjustments to solve that issue.

 

[JohnnyElectron]

It's about the same 4 seconds of buffer for the sat rad and for HD radio - and they both have a 'back-up' of sorts; satrad has a terrestrial repeater (which makes a huge difference) and HD has the analog to fall-back on (at least for now). Without their hybrid backups, they would both be screwed in an 'all-digital' radio world.

 

[BRNout]

Did you notice that he said "Austin" - a market with relatively (not completely, but relatively) level terrain, big 100 kw FM signals and generally wide regional station spacing. The AM "HD" will still suck - but will be more viable than in a lot of places. As for FM HD, it is generally in it's element in a market such as this. So I am sure that the original poster is delighted with it.

Unfortunately, it doesn't translate that well to other parts of the country - including most top markets. Such accolades should not be extrapolated to other areas of the country with lower powered signals and more crowded FM bands. It's still the descendant of cold war-era Soviet jammers.

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

Agreed.

Austin has a more creative radio market anyway. I wouldn't be supprised if they have some decent HD 2 and 3 channels down there, especially the non-comms.
"That isn't due to the technology as much as the amount of radiated RF allowed. They'll just have to make power adjustments to solve that issue." The problem is when the power goes up, if things aren't just perfect there will be one HELL of a lot of jamming and self-jamming going on. Considering that many have already done it at the lower power level and that the only cost-effective way to do the higher HD levels at this point is to go with some form of seperate antenna port there will be a great temptation to just "make it work" regardless of how much self-jamming will go on. When the digital and the analog doesn't arrive at the right ratio there will be a mess. We have a stick here in OKC that has too much gain for being in town. With their HD channels going there are spots within the first 5 miles of that damn thing that the HD messes with the host somewhat noticably. I can just imagine how bad it would be with the raised HD power.... UGLY.

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

Also, here's another discomforting thing I can add about the HD power increase if it happens. I was at a conference at the NAB this year when the subject came up. Doug Vernier, the consultant that owns V-soft, pretty much indicated there will be a LOT of adjacent channel problems in many cases if stations are allowed to increase to the proposed level. It's only one guys opinion, but certainly a good person to listen to on the subject.

 

[Tom Wells]

I am 7 miles NNW of downtown Chicago's big FMs. Since HD has been added I do hear the
sidebands on my Sansui TU-7700.
The noise added is very low, similar to the amount of noise added by an SCA signal on an FM.
What is more troubling to me is the fact that getting the stereo light to light up is very difficult now, requiring
razor sharp tuning, and some stations, like WLUP 97.9 often refuse to multiplex stereo at all.
Tuner in basement, Winegard 10-foot FM-only Yagi on a rotor in the attic, bypassable pre-amp, switchable attenuator on the tuner...
NO amount of adjusting any/all of these will make it go stereo sometimes. This tuner was always a fine performer here or
years ago in Indiana. This condition is recent.
I notice that WFMT, which has not gone iboc, still has a normal "tuning width" detection for stereo decoding.
I suspect any higher powers permitted here will result in no stereo at all for many analog listeners.

But then, wasn't the whole point of iboc to make the analog sound bad by any means possible while keeping a straight face?

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I am 7 miles NNW of downtown Chicago's big FMs. Since HD has been added I do hear the
sidebands on my Sansui TU-7700.
The noise added is very low, similar to the amount of noise added by an SCA signal on an FM.
What is more troubling to me is the fact that getting the stereo light to light up is very difficult now, requiring
razor sharp tuning, and some stations, like WLUP 97.9 often refuse to multiplex stereo at all.
Tuner in basement, Winegard 10-foot FM-only Yagi on a rotor in the attic, bypassable pre-amp, switchable attenuator on the tuner...
NO amount of adjusting any/all of these will make it go stereo sometimes. This tuner was always a fine performer here or
years ago in Indiana. This condition is recent.
I notice that WFMT, which has not gone iboc, still has a normal "tuning width" detection for stereo decoding.
I suspect any higher powers permitted here will result in no stereo at all for many analog listeners.

But then, wasn't the whole point of iboc to make the analog sound bad by any means possible while keeping a straight face?

Yes, "LESS IS MORE" (L. Nessman, WKRP & Clear Channel)

Clear Channel would have been much happier with $1 per share instead of $36. The banks were only trying to oblige.

 

[Play Freebird]

Also, here's another discomforting thing I can add about the HD power increase if it happens. I was at a conference at the NAB this year when the subject came up. Doug Vernier, the consultant that owns V-soft, pretty much indicated there will be a LOT of adjacent channel problems in many cases if stations are allowed to increase to the proposed level. It's only one guys opinion, but certainly a good person to listen to on the subject.

I found the May 21 Radio World article on the power increase interesting, but troubling:

http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0049/t.13597.html

According to Glynn Walden, "original IBOC power levels were set conservatively to make sure interference to neighbors was almost non-existent", but he goes on to discuss the purported advantages of the 10 dB power increase without mentioning how much worse the first-adjacent interference will become. You see, we're supposed to just ignore it, because -- all together, now -- "... it’s time for broadcasters to start living in the digital world and leave the analog world behind."

As I pointed out several months ago, this is one more example of the "Generalized Peter Principle": Anything that works will be used in progressively more challenging applications until it fails.

 

[Savage]

Maybe "analog will only detect as mono" and adjacent-channel problems thanks to HD-FM will finally put the ax to this incredibly stupid and self-defeating technical imbroglio. BTW: it remains to be seen whether the 10db increase will actually happen. There's a big fight within the NAB about it. It may eventually play out as only a 2 or 3db increase. In either case I would predict there will be little improvement in building penetration.

Has anyone noticed: CBS (Walden), Crawford (Alexander) and a few relatively minor players are the ONLY radio people still publicly touting IBOC?

What the hell is Walden wearing in that RW convention photo?? Looks like a freakin' PURSE.

 

[Carmine5]

Has anyone noticed: CBS (Walden), Crawford (Alexander) and a few relatively minor players are the ONLY radio people still publicly touting IBOC?

And don't forget Public Radio which still receives a third of their budget from the government and government entities. They have been huge proponents and early testers of HD Radio (and strong opponents of LPFM...Hmm, just like other radio conglomerates).

But I put much of the blame for the decline of AM on AM broadcasters themselves. They should have hit the alarm button the very first year FM listening began overtaking AM -- pressuring the NAB to, in turn, exert pressure on the FCC to enact quality standards on an ongoing basis to help preserve the band.

And now that AM has truly reached a life or death crossroad, broadcasters are still wringing their hands wondering what to do. Like Mr. Savage, they know HD Radio is no solution for AM and most can't afford it anyway.

I propose that AM broadcasters, particularly the stand-alones and small market, band together and pressure the NAB to re-examine a future strategy for AM, one that does not include IBOC, or threaten a boycott of the association if they refuse. They should also petition the FCC, repeatedly if necessary, to address the future of AM with innovative proposals. If the proposal is to carve up the band into digital only sections or move the entire band up the spectrum or enforce AMAX quality standards, it should be out there for public comment.

To AM broadcasters I say: these are your stations, your properties, your future.

C5

 

[Savage]

Pressuring the NAB is a waste of time. They're another corrupt organization run by no-vision, zero-talent empty suits. Rehr is an aloof moron. Look at his track record: incessant - and ineffective - whining at members' expense, all over the irrelevant XM-Sirius "merger." MILLIONS wasted over a non-issue. Complicit in the IBOC fiasco, and lest we forget - participants in HD's wonderful on-air promo creative. The forehead-smackingly stupid "Radio Heard Here" campaign. The NAB's about to get steamrolled by the Commission over the 24-hour staffing issue, which figured out how to numb the efforts of America's worst trade association a long time ago. And for dessert, the NAB's breathtaking recruitment of leftwing loon actor Tim Robbins to spew an offensive, zero-class rant at the Convention, then defending it publicly. Talk about an embarassing moment to admit to somebody that you're in radio....

The NAB has utterly zero interest in small and medium-market broadcasters - that is, beyond getting your membership dues. They'll happily accept your check, murmur some reassuring rhetoric and march right out and give Clear Channel, CBS, Cumulus and other biggies a blank check to rip your independent radio station to shreds...right before they issue the press release about how they "stick up for independent radio."

No, if small-market and medium-market radio wants an effective advocate in Washington, we'll have to build a new radio trade association from the ground up - and pay for it. But it would beat sending money to people who conspire with big operators to turn around and screw us.

 

[Carmine5]

Pressuring the NAB is a waste of time. They're another corrupt organization run by no-vision, zero-talent empty suits. Rehr is an aloof moron. Look at his track record: incessant - and ineffective - whining at members' expense, all over the irrelevant XM-Sirius "merger." MILLIONS wasted over a non-issue. Complicit in the IBOC fiasco, and lest we forget - participants in HD's wonderful on-air promo creative. The forehead-smackingly stupid "Radio Heard Here" campaign. The NAB's about to get steamrolled by the Commission over the 24-hour staffing issue, which figured out how to numb the efforts of America's worst trade association a long time ago. And for dessert, the NAB's breathtaking recruitment of leftwing loon actor Tim Robbins to spew an offensive, zero-class rant at the Convention, then defending it publicly. Talk about an embarassing moment to admit to somebody that you're in radio....

The NAB has utterly zero interest in small and medium-market broadcasters - that is, beyond getting your membership dues. They'll happily accept your check, murmur some reassuring rhetoric and march right out and give Clear Channel, CBS, Cumulus and other biggies a blank check to rip your independent radio station to shreds...right before they issue the press release about how they "stick up for independent radio."

No, if small-market and medium-market radio wants an effective advocate in Washington, we'll have to build a new radio trade association from the ground up - and pay for it. But it would beat sending money to people who conspire with big operators to turn around and screw us.

I totally agree with you. The NAB has a terrible track record when it comes to small broadcasters and did even under the Eddie Fritts regime. And, yes, they will gladly take anyone's dues with one hand, like LPFM's, while stabbing them in the back with the other.

But the one thing the NAB does have is an effective lobbying arm. Building one from scratch with a new association would be difficult.

C5

 

[sbe1]

It appears that there has already been testing of FM IBOC at higher power. WHMI in Howell Michigan has had their FM signal trashed by a Grand Rapids super power FM. And this is not 10 db but more like around 5-6 db increase. I know they filed a complaint in the proceeding on IBOC that was pretty much ignored by the FCC. What is the latest status of their interference and have they filed an official complaint with Uncle Charlie?

 

[ve3jf]

Also, here's another discomforting thing I can add about the HD power increase if it happens. I was at a conference at the NAB this year when the subject came up. Doug Vernier, the consultant that owns V-soft, pretty much indicated there will be a LOT of adjacent channel problems in many cases if stations are allowed to increase to the proposed level. It's only one guys opinion, but certainly a good person to listen to on the subject.

Doug certainly isn't alone in that opinion. You'll notice that NPR has not endorsed the idea of a power increase, and you can bet that they won't. Unlike the IBOC cheerleaders who have a stake in iBiquity, NPR has gone out and studied the impact that the interference is having on the coverage of adjacent channel stations, and it's not a pretty picture, even at the current power levels. They're hoping to address the shortcomings of digital coverage by using repeaters rather than a power increase - it's a faint hope at best, but it's all they've got. Many consultants will tell you that their clients' FM stations have been negatively affected by IBOC interference, though they may not say so in public. The independent Canadian study of FM IBOC concluded that it can cause significant interference to 1st-adjacent channel stations within their protected contours (http://www.cab-acr.ca/english/radio/dab/DRCG_Report_final.pdf), and again, this is at the current power levels.

It was 100% predictable many years ago that the digital coverage of FM IBOC would not match that of the analog signal. What wasn't predictable was that it would become a multicasting system. The hybrid system was originally designed for simulcasting only, so shortcomings in digital coverage weren't a huge concern, since there was always the analog audio to fall back on. But then things changed: audio codec technology improved to the point where the 96 kb/s stream could be divided into at least two streams and still provide decent audio quality, and it also became evident that consumers weren't much interested in digital systems that merely replicated the analog audio (as evidenced by what happened with DAB in other parts of the world). This resulted in a design change after the system was rolled out: "HD2" was born, and it quickly became the big selling point for FM IBOC. Trouble is, with no analog fallback, HD2 makes the digital coverage shortcomings glaringly evident, but that's the kind of thing that tends to bite you when you make a design change so late in the game. Now they want to try and fix the problem by means of brute force, but the cure will surely be worse than the disease. And so it goes...