Ground Radials effecting reception

[radioman148]

Not too long ago there was talk on the Chicago board about WLS AMs local signal going downhill.
Seems the area around their transmitter in Tinley Park has been very much built up in recent years thereby degrading their ground radials. There have also been complaints that their skywave signal is nothing like it used to be.
My question is if their radials are indeed damaged would this have a likewise effect on their skywave signal?

I have heard some stations before that don't have the greatest groundwave signal, but still manage to get out a good skywave.

Thanks.

 

[gar hi]

As I said in another thread, their nighttime signal isn't what it was 20 years ago but I assumed that was because of the competition with the Spanish station. Now that you mention this, there could be something to it. When I first moved down here in the mid 80s and had my AM Stereo walkman, WLS played top 40 and had a strong signal here at night, even better than that of the then 66 WNBC.

I'm also wondering something else after reading your post. WABC also used to have a better signal down here too. I had an aunt and uncle who lived up in North Jersey where you could see WABC's tower from their house. They were so close, I remember it even could be heard on their record player and the phone line. The last time I was ever there was in the mid 70s and they're now long gone. The area right around the tower I remember was not too developed at the time, as it was on the edge of the Meadowlands but where my aunt and uncle lived about a mile away was a regular suburban neighborhood. 35 years later the way suburbs have expanded so much, I wonder if the area right near the tower now has development too.

 

[radioman148]

As I said in another thread, their nighttime signal isn't what it was 20 years ago but I assumed that was because of the competition with the Spanish station. Now that you mention this, there could be something to it. When I first moved down here in the mid 80s and had my AM Stereo walkman, WLS played top 40 and had a strong signal here at night, even better than that of the then 66 WNBC.

I'm also wondering something else after reading your post. WABC also used to have a better signal down here too. I had an aunt and uncle who lived up in North Jersey where you could see WABC's tower from their house. They were so close, I remember it even could be heard on their record player and the phone line. The last time I was ever there was in the mid 70s and they're now long gone. The area right around the tower I remember was not too developed at the time, as it was on the edge of the Meadowlands but where my aunt and uncle lived about a mile away was a regular suburban neighborhood. 35 years later the way suburbs have expanded so much, I wonder if the area right near the tower now has development too.

Yes, I too have been by the WABC tower, but not in a long time. If my memory serves me correctly I went right near it driving on interstate 80 when I was driving to NYC from Chicago.
It's hard to determine if WLS' skywave signal is worse because of all the added stations on 890 especially in your direction or if there's damage to the ground radials. Is WBBM's signal significantly better in your area than WLS?
I'm sure someone with engineering experience could answer this radial skywave effect question.

 

[Len14043]

I travel alot and am familiar with the signals of most of the 50Kw stations. My observations indicate that WLS has about the same daytime range as it had in the 70's. They can now, as in the 70s, be received easily in Champagne, Springfield and throughout Indiana. They still put a weak daytime signal into St. Louis and Cincinnati. The nighttime signal is a different story due to co-channel interference. If fact, while listening to them near O'Hare, a faint spanish language station can be heard underneath them. WSCR is also seriously degraded at night, but their daytime signal is as solid as it was in the 70s.

 

[gar hi]

Is WBBM's signal significantly better in your area than WLS?

Not only is it significantly better than WLS, it really stands out as having the best reception of all the Chicago stations down here. It's like in the same way WCBS rules among the reception of all the NY stations.

 

[cyberdad]

I travel all the time in my work, and can report that in general WBBM has far and away the best skywave signal of the Chicago blowtorches.

 

[radioman148]

I travel alot and am familiar with the signals of most of the 50Kw stations. My observations indicate that WLS has about the same daytime range as it had in the 70's. They can now, as in the 70s, be received easily in Champagne, Springfield and throughout Indiana. They still put a weak daytime signal into St. Louis and Cincinnati. The nighttime signal is a different story due to co-channel interference. If fact, while listening to them near O'Hare, a faint spanish language station can be heard underneath them. WSCR is also seriously degraded at night, but their daytime signal is as solid as it was in the 70s.

Well as I mentioned there was a discussion on the Chicago board months back that WLS' daytime signal isn't what it used to be. Maybe these people need to get their car radios checked. I know alot of car radio aren't what they used to be.

 

[radioman148]

I travel all the time in my work, and can report that in general WBBM has far and away the best skywave signal of the Chicago blowtorches.

In the 60s through the 80s WLS had the best skywave of any Chicago station in every direction I traveled from the east coast to the west coast and especially the south.
Things have definitely changed. I guess there's much more interference on 890 than there used to be.

 

[jd]

...their (WLS's) nighttime signal isn't what it was 20 years ago but I assumed that was because of the competition with the Spanish station.

Here in Texas, about 75 miles SE of Dallas, WLS gets heavy interference from KVOZ Del Mar Hills (Laredo) TX. What are you hearing under it in Florida?

 

[BRNout]

I disagree with the assertion that it's merely additional interference that has degraded WLS' nighttime signal. It's truly weaker, even when it's alone on the frequency. When I lived in eastern PA, there were nights when WLS came in fairly well. However, WBBM and WSCR always came in better. Sometimes significantly better. WGN not so much because of the sloppy seconds from WOR's IBOC exciter.

However, in recent years, aside from freak dx from outside the US, WLS never comes in better than it's counterparts at 670 and 780. As a kid, I would listen to WLS on a pretty crappy radio and they had a much better signal on the east coast than they do now. Even without external interference. I won't count WMVP here because it's directional and therefore should come in better.

And, living in this area now, WLS is - by far - the weakest 50 kw signal locally. True, their tx site is across town on the south side (and most others are west of the city); but it's significantly weaker than WSCR, WBBM, WGN or WMVP. In fact, it's only a little stronger than WIND which has 10% of the power (5 kw) and is even farther from me. Sure, WLS may come in well in Champaign/Urbana and should because it's a straight shot from their tx site to that area. But the other Chicago 50 kw stations come in fine there too.

So, I tend to disagree with the assertion that WLS is merely the victim of a crowded dial. Yes, that's part of it. But it is not the whole story.

 

[drt]

...their (WLS's) nighttime signal isn't what it was 20 years ago but I assumed that was because of the competition with the Spanish station.

Here in Texas, about 75 miles SE of Dallas, WLS gets heavy interference from KVOZ Del Mar Hills (Laredo) TX. What are you hearing under it in Florida?

Even though I believe this question was directed at GAR FLA; I will pipe in.

I don't hear anything under WLS, from where I am (3 blocks off Tampa Bay about 20 - 25 air miles s.s.w. of GAR FLA), I get a strong Cuban signal on 890; sometimes (not always) I can hear a weak WLS in the background).

Now, I have a second listening post, about 73 miles n.n.e. of here and the inland location dimishes the Cuban signals somewhat and there (the Ridge Manor/Webster area) WLS and the Cuban station battle it out coming in about the same; in that location sometime I can null out the Cuban station, but not always.

drt

 

[gar hi]

Here in Texas, about 75 miles SE of Dallas, WLS gets heavy interference from KVOZ Del Mar Hills (Laredo) TX. What are you hearing under it in Florida?

It's some Spanish speaking station and where it comes from, I don't know.
More times than not, WLS is under it.

 

[BobOnTheJob]

As I said in another thread, their nighttime signal isn't what it was 20 years ago but I assumed that was because of the competition with the Spanish station. Now that you mention this, there could be something to it. When I first moved down here in the mid 80s and had my AM Stereo walkman, WLS played top 40 and had a strong signal here at night, even better than that of the then 66 WNBC.

I'm also wondering something else after reading your post. WABC also used to have a better signal down here too. I had an aunt and uncle who lived up in North Jersey where you could see WABC's tower from their house. They were so close, I remember it even could be heard on their record player and the phone line. The last time I was ever there was in the mid 70s and they're now long gone. The area right around the tower I remember was not too developed at the time, as it was on the edge of the Meadowlands but where my aunt and uncle lived about a mile away was a regular suburban neighborhood. 35 years later the way suburbs have expanded so much, I wonder if the area right near the tower now has development too.

Something between the WABC transmitter output & receiver input has changed in the past 45 years. It may just be band conditions or it could be something more concrete. When I was a kid, I listened to WABC at 575 miles on my 6 transistor pocket radio at night...not just 1 night, but every night. Now, on a decent car radio (which has to be better than the 6 transistor) in the same area, it's hard to ID WABC on most nights. It's not getting walloped by anything else...there just isn't much signal there these days. In other cases, it's probably interference. WNDE 1260 Indianapolis was #1 in Columbus,IN at night in 1978. Now, you can not tell whether it's even on the air or not. Same directional pattern, same power, no usable signal. The 'ole AM band ain't what she used to be.

 

[gr8oldies]

In the Lafayette area when I lived there in the 80s and 90s, WLS was the strongest Chicago station, day and night. I had heard KVOZ under WLS and in the mornings the Mississippi station was a regular. Cuba did quite a number on WLS even in Lafayette more recently.

I heard an aircheck of WSAI, Cincy at night with a request from Springfield. These days it's quite a challenge to hear it in Springfield. Either the signal was better in then 60s, people were more tolerant of interference, or both.

 

[Icangelp]

As I said in another thread, their nighttime signal isn't what it was 20 years ago but I assumed that was because of the competition with the Spanish station. Now that you mention this, there could be something to it. When I first moved down here in the mid 80s and had my AM Stereo walkman, WLS played top 40 and had a strong signal here at night, even better than that of the then 66 WNBC.

I'm also wondering something else after reading your post. WABC also used to have a better signal down here too. I had an aunt and uncle who lived up in North Jersey where you could see WABC's tower from their house. They were so close, I remember it even could be heard on their record player and the phone line. The last time I was ever there was in the mid 70s and they're now long gone. The area right around the tower I remember was not too developed at the time, as it was on the edge of the Meadowlands but where my aunt and uncle lived about a mile away was a regular suburban neighborhood. 35 years later the way suburbs have expanded so much, I wonder if the area right near the tower now has development too.

Something between the WABC transmitter output & receiver input has changed in the past 45 years. It may just be band conditions or it could be something more concrete. When I was a kid, I listened to WABC at 575 miles on my 6 transistor pocket radio at night...not just 1 night, but every night. Now, on a decent car radio (which has to be better than the 6 transistor) in the same area, it's hard to ID WABC on most nights. It's not getting walloped by anything else...there just isn't much signal there these days. In other cases, it's probably interference. WNDE 1260 Indianapolis was #1 in Columbus,IN at night in 1978. Now, you can not tell whether it's even on the air or not. Same directional pattern, same power, no usable signal. The 'ole AM band ain't what she used to be.

I grew up in Indy so you would expect Chicago stations to perform well.

WABC and Cousin Brucie, and WBZ with Bruce Bradley came in strong every night.
WLS was like a local evenings and both WJJD and WCFL had good signals.
WRVA, while not playing rock was strong every night as was WHAM 1180 and WGY at 810.

These days there are times 810, 1140 and 1180 are not even listenable here in Cincinnati.

Today the strongest Chicago night signals are WBBM, WGN and WMVP. WSCR and WLS are no where near what they used to be.

 

[radioman148]

>>So, I tend to disagree with the assertion that WLS is merely the victim of a crowded dial. Yes, that's part of it. But it is not the whole story>>

Would damage to their ground radiald degrade their skywave as well as groundwave?

 

[radioman148]

...their (WLS's) nighttime signal isn't what it was 20 years ago but I assumed that was because of the competition with the Spanish station.

Here in Texas, about 75 miles SE of Dallas, WLS gets heavy interference from KVOZ Del Mar Hills (Laredo) TX. What are you hearing under it in Florida?

Even though I believe this question was directed at GAR FLA; I will pipe in.

I don't hear anything under WLS, from where I am (3 blocks off Tampa Bay about 20 - 25 air miles s.s.w. of GAR FLA), I get a strong Cuban signal on 890; sometimes (not always) I can hear a weak WLS in the background).

Now, I have a second listening post, about 73 miles n.n.e. of here and the inland location dimishes the Cuban signals somewhat and there (the Ridge Manor/Webster area) WLS and the Cuban station battle it out coming in about the same; in that location sometime I can null out the Cuban station, but not always.

drt

DRT, do you get any other Chicago AMs & if so do they do better than WLS in your area?

 

[radioman148]

Here in Texas, about 75 miles SE of Dallas, WLS gets heavy interference from KVOZ Del Mar Hills (Laredo) TX. What are you hearing under it in Florida?

It's some Spanish speaking station and where it comes from, I don't know.
More times than not, WLS is under it.

I think there is at least one 890 in Cuba.

 

[radioman148]

As I said in another thread, their nighttime signal isn't what it was 20 years ago but I assumed that was because of the competition with the Spanish station. Now that you mention this, there could be something to it. When I first moved down here in the mid 80s and had my AM Stereo walkman, WLS played top 40 and had a strong signal here at night, even better than that of the then 66 WNBC.

I'm also wondering something else after reading your post. WABC also used to have a better signal down here too. I had an aunt and uncle who lived up in North Jersey where you could see WABC's tower from their house. They were so close, I remember it even could be heard on their record player and the phone line. The last time I was ever there was in the mid 70s and they're now long gone. The area right around the tower I remember was not too developed at the time, as it was on the edge of the Meadowlands but where my aunt and uncle lived about a mile away was a regular suburban neighborhood. 35 years later the way suburbs have expanded so much, I wonder if the area right near the tower now has development too.

Something between the WABC transmitter output & receiver input has changed in the past 45 years. It may just be band conditions or it could be something more concrete. When I was a kid, I listened to WABC at 575 miles on my 6 transistor pocket radio at night...not just 1 night, but every night. Now, on a decent car radio (which has to be better than the 6 transistor) in the same area, it's hard to ID WABC on most nights. It's not getting walloped by anything else...there just isn't much signal there these days. In other cases, it's probably interference. WNDE 1260 Indianapolis was #1 in Columbus,IN at night in 1978. Now, you can not tell whether it's even on the air or not. Same directional pattern, same power, no usable signal. The 'ole AM band ain't what she used to be.

WABC used to put a very good signal into the Chicago area, but I can't compare it to the old days anymore because WBBM's IBOC completely eliminates it for me. However, when I'm up about 150 miles into Wisconsin WABC still does well there at night.

 

[Mid West Clubber]

Here near indianapolis, not far from BOB,,, WLS is the hardest of the big Chicago stations to pull in,, I have pulled it in in South Carolina, and Texas back in like 93, but they are weak now compared to WBBM and WSCR and WGN 720, and whatever is on 1000 now.... I often get WLS hammered out by Spanish,,, probably Cuba