Groundwave vis-a-vis Skywave AM Recption?

[Steve_Green]

On a job break in St. Clair PA (the Schuylkill County St. Clair ; there are a few) I've gotten WGNY Newburgh NY twice now within a few weeks, in broad daylight. The first time it was on -- nose turned up -- the GE Superadio III. Today it was on the fine GE SR II.

Also got WKBW at 12:15 PM.

I mean, it's broad daylight. It's lunch hour! And WKBW does send a lot of juice this way. (I refuse to call them W*KB : -) It's a 200 mile shot to Buffalo and 125 miles to Newburgh, and there's certainly no water path for either station.

The question is : Since both stations had deep fades and booming crests, was I getting groundwave, skywave, a mix of both or maybe some other method?

 

[fybush]

Sure sounds like daytime skywave to me. Not at all uncommon at the upper end of the dial this time of year.

 

[ddsparxx]

I was getting WHAM 1180 last week as early as 12:30 PM in northern VA. Oddly enought I don't get WBT 1110 which is about the same distance down south until mid afternoon.

 

[gar hi]

Daytime skywave for sure, Stve.

I used to live in South Jersey and old KB Radio 15 was the first station that made me discover DXing.

Typically it would fade away after sunrise and be completely gone but I do remember a couple times hearing them midday in the winter and I was quite surprised.

The high dial position allows for the daytime skip now and then during winter.

The X band above 1600 is even better for daytime skip as it has some degree of skywave all day all winter.

 

[dx1ng]

The question is : Since both stations had deep fades and booming crests, was I getting groundwave, skywave, a mix of both or maybe some other method?

As others have said, it was skywave. Groundwave does not vary. If the signal strength varies (fades), or if the signal is there one day at a certain time and not another, then you're talking skywave. Or possibly interference between skywave and groundwave. If there's a day when there is no signal at all, then there is no groundwave, ever.

At our nothern latitudes, some skywave all day is not uncommon at this time of year, near the solstice. Sometimes the midday skywave can be quite strong, especially at the upper parts of the AM dial.

 

[spunker88]

Its always like that this time of the year, I think it has to do with the short days. I can get the NYC AM stations pretty much all day here upstate over 200 miles away, but only during the winter. I can also get WBZ most days this time of the year and thats around 300 miles away. During the spring, summer and fall these are nighttime only stations.

 

[Tom Wells]

In the summer my AM 1620 in Chicago is totally clear of Omaha 1620 in the daytime.
But in the winter, there is still enough skywave all day long that I must be as careful about being on frequency as at night, in order to not suffer from sub-audio hetrodyne degradation.

 

[lurker77]

Here in Southern Ontario, I've noticed that 1560 WQEW in New York is always the first station that comes in during the winter months, as early as around 1pm during this time of year

 

[radioman148]

I live about 45 miles north of WLS' transmitter. In the winter I get groundwave/skywave cancellation day & night quite often.
In the spring & summer I never get it.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I live about 45 miles north of WLS' transmitter. In the winter I get groundwave/skywave cancellation day & night quite often.
In the spring & summer I never get it.

I'm really surprised by that. Are they using an auxiliary antenna then? WJR uses about the same electrical height and I almost never hear fading. One time, WJR was doing work in the main tower and I noticed fading for a while.

 

[radioman148]

I live about 45 miles north of WLS' transmitter. In the winter I get groundwave/skywave cancellation day & night quite often.
In the spring & summer I never get it.

I'm really surprised by that. Are they using an auxiliary antenna then? WJR uses about the same electrical height and I almost never hear fading. One time, WJR was doing work in the main tower and I noticed fading for a while.

It's been happening for the last couple of years. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with the major build up around their transmitter?
Back in the 60s & 70s the WLS tower was surrounded by farmland in every direction. Now the land has been totally developed almost right up to the transmitter. Could this be the cause of their signal degrading?

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Is the groundwave reduced from what it was a few years back?

Engineers should loan out their old field strength meters to people they train to use them so that more people can keep track more accurately of what is happening. A couple of times, I had one for a while and was able to know when things went haywire.

 

[radioman148]

Is the groundwave reduced from what it was a few years back?

Engineers should loan out their old field strength meters to people they train to use them so that more people can keep track more accurately of what is happening. A couple of times, I had one for a while and was able to know when things went haywire.

It doesn't seem any worse except maybe in the winter.

 

[charlestondxman]

In the winter, maybe. It's definitely worse than it was in the 1940s and 50s, when stations could be heard miles and miles farther than they can now. For example, WIS 560 Columbia (now WVOC) reported listeners in 43 of South Carolina's 46 counties, plus 15 counties in GA and NC in 1946.

Stations claimed much farther distances than they do now.

BTW, about WLS, their night signal has gotten better here in Charleston. It actually comes in better than WBT sometimes. WBT is a signal that has gotten worse here. It comes in weak here daytime, about 175 miles or so, only coming in well on good radios. The nighttime skywave gets interference from other stations, and some groundwave/skywave cancellation. Some nights, however, it comes in perfectly.

 

[charlestondxman]

This morning, I was picking up KMOX to 8:30am weakly. WBT was also coming in that late. It was surprising that it came in that late.

 

[radioman148]

This morning, I was picking up KMOX to 8:30am weakly. WBT was also coming in that late. It was surprising that it came in that late.

It's that time of year where we get some daytime skywave.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

Yup... daytime skywave is making an appearance too, even as far south as 32°45'40"N latitude.

For example, I regularly am hearing deep fades and booming crests on 1670 KHPY, a station that normally barely makes it here midday, if at all. Also 1290 KKDD is putting up a serious fight vs KZSB, and normally in summer the latter completely buries the former. Also a couple times I've heard 1580 KMIK duking it out with KBLA, and many other stations in the 1200s and up have been stronger than usual, with quite a bit of fading, and some co-channel interference. One afternoon I tuned in the graveyards and it almost sounded like nighttime... at noon!

Also a couple times this winter I've heard 1530 KFBK with a respectable signal.

On 1680 recently I heard two stations at noon. An Asian language station dominated the frequency, but I thought I could hear Spanish underneath it. Any ideas what they could be?

 

[gar hi]

It's been happening for the last couple of years. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with the major build up around their transmitter?
Back in the 60s & 70s the WLS tower was surrounded by farmland in every direction. Now the land has been totally developed almost right up to the transmitter. Could this be the cause of their signal degrading?

Like I've said in the past, WLS isn't the same powerhouse at night in Florida as it was back in the 80s.

Either that has something to do with it or maybe it only seems weaker because tbe Cuban station is so strong. :-\

 

[radioman148]

It's been happening for the last couple of years. I'm wondering if it has anything to do with the major build up around their transmitter?
Back in the 60s & 70s the WLS tower was surrounded by farmland in every direction. Now the land has been totally developed almost right up to the transmitter. Could this be the cause of their signal degrading?

Like I've said in the past, WLS isn't the same powerhouse at night in Florida as it was back in the 80s.

Either that has something to do with it or maybe it only seems weaker because tbe Cuban station is so strong. :-\

I think it's a combination of both. You've got more interference in the Caribbean and here locally WLS' groundwave has been weakened by major buildup around the transmitter site.

 

[cyberdad]

I'm about 65 miles northwest of the WLS stick. During the last few years I've noticed some cancellation on occasion during the winter....something that never used to happen.

Also, Lurker mentioned WQEW daytime reception in Ontario. During the ten or so years that I used to drive the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal "triangle" every 2-3 months on my business trips, WQEW was a regular....and reliable....daytime listen every winter. It would fade from time to time, but on balance, the signal was usually quite good. Similar also for WWKB.