Grundig G3 was $90 @ RS, got a dud or expecting too much?

[pianoplayer88key]

Hi all...

I bought a Grundig G3 on sale for $89.99 at Radio Shack, hoping to find a not-too-expensive SSB+sync-capable radio to use as a spotting receiver (for TPs and other exotic propagation) to "lead" ultralight radios to those signals. (The G3 doesn't qualify as an ultralight due to its size, SSB + sync, and price when not on sale.) I was expecting the G3 to be noticeably superior in sensitivity and selectivity (even without using SSB or sync) to my Tecsun PL-380, even with the latter being aided by the Select-A-Tenna, but so far I'm overall quite disappointed.
I was also hoping to use its local oscillator to generate test signals on other AM radios (150+450=600 for example), but it seems to not do that.

I mostly am interested in mediumwave performance, but I also briefly tested FM and SW as well, comparing with the Grundig G8 (which I bought on sale for $30 the same day).
For FM sensitivity, my G3 slightly edged the G8 on a weak 92.1 KSOQ. KRTH 101.1 was only receivable on the G8. A mexican on 107.3 was slightly better on the G3. These tests were done with the antennas fully extended and oriented the same way for both radios.
On FM selectivity, due to my location (wrong side of a hill and some IBOC locals) I was unable to check reception of weak signals next to strong locals. So, I basically just listened to how wide the signals audibly leaked, and found both the G3 and G8 to be comparable in that category, with the G3 being slightly wider.
As for shortwave, I couldn't test much, although the G3 was NOT significantly better than the G8 or PL-380, although I had expected it to be.
On longwave, I got weak but readable images 900kHz below several mediumwave stations: 1070 KNX on 170 (s3 faint), 1090 XEPRS on 190 (s3 weak), 1130 KSDO on 230 (s5 fair), 1170 KCBQ on 270 (s3 weak) and 1210 KPRZ on 310 (s3 faint). These were tested in the wee hours of Tuesday morning.

Most of my tests were done in the mediumwave band.
On my local 50kW (night) 760 KFMB (7.3mi N) the G3 easily begins to overload even when it's still a foot from the Select-A-Tenna, and their 2nd harmonic on 1520 can be heard even without it. Also, 760 splatters slightly wider on the G3 than on the PL-380. Also, I can hear the 2nd harmonic of a local oscillator generated by a 1965 Zenith Royal 705, the fundamental of which reads up to 95/25 on the G8.

I ran more tests early this afternoon, mostly comparing the Tecsun PL-380 to the Grundig G3.

For sensitivity, the PL-380 was slightly better overall except on 970 KNWZ where the G3 edged it slightly, and on 1110 KDIS where the PL-380 was suffering from desense no thanks to 1170 KCBQ (78/25 on the G8). The G3 wasn't much better, though. Also on 1190 KXMX the G3 was better than the PL-380 but from 1290 KZBN up the PL-380 smoked the G3.

For MW selectivity, stations on the G3 (in narrow AM) splattered a little wider than on the PL-380 (using 1kHz BW), especially with strong stations like 1170 KCBQ where it could be heard 10kHz farther off on the G3 than on the 380.

Also, tests were done pulling weak signals out from next to strong locals.
For 560 KBLU (pest 570 KLAC) the 380 had a faint signal with a trace of 570 slop. In LSB the G3 had a trace of 560 audio with no slop, and in L-sync a het muddied 560's faint audio.
On 610 KAVL (pest 600 KOGO-HD) the G3 had faint audio in LSB sync, and the PL-380 had a trace when tuned to 609kHz in 1 kHz BW. This was done while nulling 600, and is the only selectivity test on which the pest wasn't faced full-on.

On 680 I thought I had a possible trace of KNBR (next to local 690) when using LSB sync on the G3.
For 790 KABC vs 800 XESPN, both radios in AM had fair 790 audio with moderate 800 slop. When using the SSB or Sync, the G3 had fair audio with a trace of slop.
For 1140 KNWQ vs 1130 KSDO, in AM mode the 380 had a trace of 1140 audio under heavy 1130 slop, and the G8 couldn't resolve 1140. Use USB, though, and there were traces of each, and with sync a het muddied 1140's audio.
On 1180 KERN vs 1170 KCBQ, the G3 heard weak 1180 audio with a trace of 1170 slop in USB. Tuning the PL-380 to 1181 in 1kHz BW revealed weak 1180 audio with slight 1170 slop at around 1:40pm. (Local sunset is somewhere around 4:40-4:45 or so IIRC.)

Overall, I was expecting the barefoot G3 to completely smoke the Select-A-Tenna aided PL-380. Was I expecting too much or did I get a dud? Or is there another model I should look for to do what I was expecting? For example, what are people's thoughts on the Tecsun PL-660? It would be a stretch but I may be able to afford one. Return shipping in case I don't like it (from the one seller on ebay that has it) is giving me pause, though.

 

[fangio28]

I bought a G8 yesterday ($30 @ RS)....was very disappointed in it compared to the Grundig S350.
Background noise much worse on the G8. It's going back to RS tomorrow.

Fangio28 in
Coeur d'Alene, ID

 

[dxer720]

I think my G3 is a dud. I need my Terk AM loop just to get the sensitivity to match a $10 Sony pocket radio. The MW performance is nowhere near my Tecsuns (PL-200, 300WT, 360, 390 & 550)

The SW & FM are very good, but the LW & MW are very poor. The AIR band isn't as good as my 2 handheld scanners.

I also get quirky operation. You may push one button & end up with the function of another. I bought it from Amazon.

I wasn't happy, either.

The PL-390 smokes em all.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

Interesting... I found the G8 that I bought at Radio Shack to at least be equal to the G3, or better. Maybe I should see if I could get my hands on an S350?

Before you take that G8 back, what do some of your local and distant daytime signals read on the dBu and dB display? Also what are the signal readings on a few unoccupied channels near 670, 970, 1270 & 1570 (doesn't have to be those exact frequencies), as well as an unoccupied channel within 30kHz of your strongest local, when facing their transmitter?

I did a radio-locator search for Coeur d'Alene, ID, and it appears that location may be less crowded than where I am. There was only one station that was listed as signal strength 5 (full scale on R-L's scale of 1-5). That station, 1080-KVNI, is 10kW, and I don't know how close you are to their transmitter, but it's 6 miles from the point R-L chose as the center of the search.

Here, however, by searching with my coordinates, I have 8 "full-strength" stations. A few strong ones are 760-KFMB, 910-KECR, 1130-KSDO, 1170-KCBQ (the strongest one - 50kW at 9.3 miles, reading 78/25 on the G8, although 760 matches them with 50kW at 7.3 miles at night, while KCBQ powers down to ~60/25 (KFMB is 68/25 daytime)) and 1360-KLSD. Tuning 20kHz off either side of 1170 yields readings of about 43/00 or 45/00, with relatively quiet background noise, caused mostly by the strong 1170 signal getting through the radio's front end and blocking weak signals on frequencies like 1110 (faint), 1150 (unreadable), 1190 (barely detectable). On the other hand, at the edges of the band on 520 and 1710, it's reading about 17/00 on 520 and around 22/00 or so on 1710 (with a little slop from a ~50/25 local on 1700). Turning the radio to null 1170 yields 15/00 on both frequencies, maybe 17/00 on 1700. The background noise is noticeably louder on those frequencies with less signal getting in.
A brief note about that weak 1110 signal. At my house, due to semi-proximity to 1170 (and to a lesser extent 1130, their signal is very weak, and readability is difficult, reading about 41/00 or so. Recently, I went on a mini daytime DXpedition to Cameron Corners, CA, away from the local QRM. There, 1170 was reading 15/10, and actually sounded considerably better, even though I was quite a bit farther from their transmitter. (I was, also, farther from the pests on 1130 and 1170, which probably helped.)

Now... it could be something entirely different that I'm not aware of why your G8's background noise is loud. I was thinking it was due to not being near strong stations that were desensing/blocking the radio and pushing the noise level down (while at the same time raising the indicated signal level). Maybe I should ask ... what exactly do you mean by "background noise is much worse"? Have you tried comparing the radios outside as far away from powerlines and electrical devices as you can get?

About that S350... how much better in your evaluation is it than the G8? Is it a major improvement on sensitivity and selectivity? (Due to your apparent location, unless you're within a couple miles of that local station, I probably shouldn't ask about dynamic range - ability to receive a weak (15/03 or less on the G8) signal in the adjacent slot (10kHz) to a strong (~84/25 to 98/25 on the G8) local signal, as I doubt your strongest local is that strong.) I found the G3 I bought to overall actually be INFERIOR to the G8, even though it was quite a bit more expensive (and more expensive when not on sale than the S350).


dxer720, so the PL-390 smokes them? Someone had told me that since I have problems with blocking/desense on stations with my PL-380, the PL-390 would be worse, as it's more sensitive and uses the same DSP chip and presumably the same front end. One of my reasons for getting the G3 was to have an inexpensive SSB spotting receiver to lead the ultralights to TPs or other exotic targets, and as far as I know the PL-390 doesn't have that capability.
I have heard a few TPs, though, without the help of a spotting receiver - just using the PL-380 and Select-A-Tenna. They are 774-JOUB, 657kHz from Pyongyang, North Korea, 594-JOAK (this one was particularly amazing as I have a 5kW IBOC on 600, KOGO, about 7.7 miles west of me) and 972-HLCA. I also may have heard others, but they are not yet confirmed.
Which Sony pocket radio are you referring to? I have the SRF-59, for which I paid $20 at Fry's. It actually does a better job of pulling out that 1110 I mentioned earlier than my PL-380 and G8 do.
Also I haven't heard anything on the Air band on the G3, but then I don't know where to look. I didn't use the scan function, as often that function on most radios I've touched will miss signals that are weak, but readable.
If you say the SW is very good on the G3, then it must be excellent on the G8 (same as the PL-300WT) and my PL-380, in spite of the shorter antenna. Signal strengths on the time signals (WWV) seemed to be comparable on both radios. In my opinion, the FM on the G8 is slightly superior to the FM on the G3. For one thing the G8 has a little better selectivity, and on some portions of the band the G8 is more sensitive. For example, I was able to get a weak but readable signal from KRTH 101.1 in Los Angeles (I'm near El Cajon / La Mesa, CA) on the G8, and couldn't detect it on the G3, with both antennas fully extended and using the same orientation.
How well do your Tecsuns do with dynamic range - separating weak signals from adjacent strong ones from the same or reciprocal direction - on mediumwave? (See above for an example "challenge".) I'm wondering if I happened to have gotten a few duds (with the three G8's I've now tested, and my PL-380)?

 

[BRNout]

I bought a G8 yesterday ($30 @ RS)....was very disappointed in it compared to the Grundig S350.
Background noise much worse on the G8. It's going back to RS tomorrow.

Fangio28 in
Coeur d'Alene, ID

Seriously? You must have gotten a real dud because my G8 absolutely smokes the S350. I own both and there's no comparison when it comes to dxing ability. Really, it's not even close.

The S350 is single conversion on AM with a pretty wide bandwidth; the FM side of the S350 is neither selective nor particularly sensitive. My clock radio actually does better on FM (though it is a pretty good clock radio). I can't imagine the S350 outperforming a G8 in any way aside from the (much larger) speaker. It is attractive and fun though.

Interesting... I found the G8 that I bought at Radio Shack to at least be equal to the G3, or better. Maybe I should see if I could get my hands on an S350?

Tfcwings, don't waste your money unless you need a radio to take to the beach - as people did in the 60s and 70s. It's swell for that. But the G3 and G8 pull in many more stations than any S350 will.

 

[fangio28]

thanks to tfc and you for your input. Maybe i did get a lemon because the G8 seemed far inferior to
my S350, which has some age on it, but still delivers wonderful DX domestically & from Western
Canada.

 

[BRNout]

thanks to tfc and you for your input. Maybe i did get a lemon because the G8 seemed far inferior to
my S350, which has some age on it, but still delivers wonderful DX domestically & from Western
Canada.

I'd recommend swapping it out for a fresh G8. It should do a lot better than what you are reporting. I love mine. Yes, my Tecsun PL-310 is a bit better (much better on LW and SW) - but the G8 does quite well for AM and FM. As for the S350, if you're in an area without a lot of strong signals, it may seem like a DX machine. But, I have tested more than one of these and they never perform to the standards of numerous radios that are available out there. Their specs simply don't support it. You car stereo should do a lot better, for example.

From what I can tell, the new Tecsun PL-390 is the hottest little dxer out there right now. I'm biding my time until I can pick up a pair of them........

 

[dxer720]

tfcwings...My Sony pocket radio is the analog-tuned ICF-S10MK2. It's very sensitive. I would rate it's selectivity (against all my other radios) at about a 7.

I have only one very strong (same town) AM station at 1550. I think the reason my PL-390 is more sensitive that my other Tecsuns, is it's longer AM loopstick LW/MW antenna. It suffers from the desensing problem, but the better sensitivity helps signals get through the desensing. I wonder how the DSP radios would perform with multiple very strong nearby stations (like Milwaukee or Chicago)

I've also never found any MW "images" on MW (650 for my 1550) or on LW or SW, from any of the Tecsuns (except the PL-200 & 550 which are single conversion)

 

[pianoplayer88key]

tfcwings...My Sony pocket radio is the analog-tuned ICF-S10MK2. It's very sensitive. I would rate it's selectivity (against all my other radios) at about a 7.

Really! I read a couple shootouts online, and the reviewer says it is hopelessly outclassed in both those categories.
http://www.dxer.ca/latest/56-ultralight-radio-am-dx-shootout-round-one
http://www.dxer.ca/file-area/doc_download/93-garys-2008-ultra-light-radio-shoot-out--with-pictures
One of those articles comments that a TP DXer in southern California may be lucky to receive Santa Catalina Island (740-KBRT, 10kW DA, daytime only). Also it appears that his unit had horrid selectivity, as well.
What radios are you comparing the ICF-S10MK2 with?

I have only one very strong (same town) AM station at 1550. I think the reason my PL-390 is more sensitive that my other Tecsuns, is it's longer AM loopstick LW/MW antenna. It suffers from the desensing problem, but the better sensitivity helps signals get through the desensing. I wonder how the DSP radios would perform with multiple very strong nearby stations (like Milwaukee or Chicago)

Well, I can report on two different locations. First, my own home QTH in east Mt Helix area, south of El Cajon, east of La Mesa, CA. Signal readings will be from the G8. Some of my strong local pests include:
600-KOGO-HD - 65/25 - 5kW DA-1, 7.7mi W (Thankfully this is the only IBOC AM station in town.)
690-XEWW - 64/25 day, ~57/25 night - 77kW/50kW DA-2, ~32mi SSW
760-KFMB - 68/25 day, 78/25 night - 5kW/50kW DA-N, 7.3mi, 320°
910-KECR - ~62/25 day, ~69/25 night - 5kW DA-2, 9.3mi. 7°
1130-KSDO - ~73/25 - 10kW DA-2, 6.3mi, 350°
1170-KCBQ - 78/25 day, ~61/25 night - 50kW/2.9kW DA-2, 9.3mi, 7°
1240-KNSN - ~57/25, 550W ND, ~11.2mi W
1360-KLSD - ~64/25 day, ~56/25 night - 5kW/1kW ND, 8.3mi W
1470-XERCN - ~58/25 - 10kW ND (?), S
In addition, 540-XESURF is ~49/25, 640-KFI is ~40-44/25, 740-KBRT is ~48/25, 800-XESPN is ~51/25, 860-XEMO is ~52/25, 950-XEKAM is ~51/25, 1040-KURS is ~47/25, 1070-KNX is ~45-51/25, 1090-XEPRS is ~51/25, 1210-KPRZ is ~52/25, 1270-XEAZ is ~47/25, 1630-XEUT is ~50/25, and 1700-XEPE is ~49-50/25. These are all daytime readings - the variability on some is due to different measurement locations which favor some stations over others. My own semi-local on 1550, XEBG, by comparison, reads around ~30-35/25 or so.
XEPRS and XEPE often run the same programming, and it's interesting to note that 1700 (XEPE)'s reception is noticeably cleaner than that of 1090, in spite of the latter having slightly higher signal readings. I suspect this is due to the desense from 1130 and 1170.
As for weaker signals, two competing TIS's can be barely heard in XESURF's slop on 530 reading about 17//01 or so. KBLU-560 is barely detectable under ~27/00 or so and 570-KLAC's IBOC, 730-XEEBC is barely heard under ~30/00 when nulling KBRT's IBOC, 820-XEVMS is faintly heard at about 27-30/00, and 930-KHJ actually manages to push through the soft mute threshold at about 30/10 or so.
From 960 to 990 there are 4 (maybe 5) stations detectable, all reading about 30-32dBu. KIXW on 960 is barely identifiable, 970-KNWZ is slightly better, 980-KFWB can occasionally push through the PL-380's soft mute when using 1kHz BW, and on 990 XECL dominates over KTMS, usually fluttering the softmute. On 1020, KTNQ is faintly heard, and XED is possible but weak on 1050. By this time the "no-signal" RSSI levels are rising due to 1170 and to a lesser extent 1130.
Up in the 1100s, the desense is the worst it gets at this location in the daytime. (At night, I get 43/00 on TP frequencies 747 and 774 due to 760-KFMB's blowtorch signal.) KDIS-1110 is barely readable under 41/00 desense, 1150-KTLK is unreadable under 45/00, and 1190-KXMX is extremely faint under 43/00. From here, the desense starts calming down a little.
1280-KFRN holds its own with ~27-30/15-20, 1290-KZSB is weak and barely readable in the upper 20s / low 30s dBu, 1320-KKSM is barely detectable under ~30/00 in spite of being less than 50 miles away, 1330-KWKW is faint, 1340-KCLU is comparable to 1290-KKDD, 1450-KFSD is about 28/24 or so, and daytime skip is affecting the weak signals in the 1500s and 1600s. On 1620, TIS WNSB415 usually holds its ow in the daytime at about 22/12 or so.

At my grandma's house in San Gabriel, CA, it's much worse. Pests include 640-KFI-HD (~70/25), 710-KSPN, 790-KABC, 870-KRLA, 980-KFWB, 1020-KTNQ (~78/25), 1070-KNX, 1110-KDIS-HD (~82/25 day - 50kW/20kw 4.6mi E), 1150-KTLK, 1300-KAZN (~83-88/25 - ~23kW/1kW, 1/3mi NW / ~2.8mi N) and 1430-KMRB (~84-91/25 - 50kW/9.8kW, 1/3mi NW).
Desense plagues the radio significantly there, reading 49/00 on ~960-1710, and 50/00 from ~1220-1550 on blank channels. Because of that, semi-locals like 1230-KYPA, 1260-KGIL, 1280-KFRN, 1330-KWKW, 1390-KLTX, 1460-KTYM, 1480-KVNR, 1580-KBLA and 1650-KFOX range from barely detectable to very noisy, with only a few of those breaking through the 0dB SNR barrier. And, my original goal of being able to hear 1290-KKDD San Bernardino with its full 10kHz analog audio at that location is impossible on the PL-380.

I've also never found any MW "images" on MW (650 for my 1550) or on LW or SW, from any of the Tecsuns (except the PL-200 & 550 which are single conversion)

So that must be why I can't use the G3's local oscillator to generate signals 450kHz above its tuned frequency.
However, I do get some images 900kHz below locals and semi-locals. For example, 1070 duplicates (faint) on 170, 1090 on 190, 1130 on 230, 1170 on 270, 1210 on 310, 1240 on 340 and 1360 on 460. In addition, I can faintly hear 760's 2nd harmonic on 1520 at night, and can hear 1170's 2nd harmonic on 2340 in the daytime. (The latter also is heard with the G8 and PL-380.)